GUILTY Australia - Jill Meagher, 29, Melbourne, 22 Sep 2012 #4

[KG1]

ACTIVE SEARCH Austrailia: Riley Martin (Graham), 4y/o, missing little boy with Down's Syndrome - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

off topic: but still relevant to the missing persons forum; thread started on little Riley who is missing in Australia. He has down's syndrome.

(link above)

He's been found safe and well, asleep with his dogs. Great day.

 

[KG1]

I'm new to this and may be wish off the mark, but if you consider the comments of the police and journalists post arrest, and take into account the reports of the neighbours, it would seem to me that JM was abducted from an unspecified location in Sydney Rd/Hope Street and possibly taken to the alleged offenders residence where the assault and possibly murder took place. That would explain the timeline being the abduction in Brunswick some time between 145am and 150am with the subsequent arrival at a Coburg address at 200am (as reported by the neighbours). It could also give some meaning to "he used his own shovel" i.e one from his residence (I doubt he had the shovel in his vehicle if the reports that it was an opportunistic attack as reported by the police is true). Returning to the residence where a prolonged attack may have occurred also goes some way to explaining the reporters horror at what they were told at the briefing. This theory depends largely on the neighbours report of a car arriving at the alleged offenders residence shortly after the CCTV footage in Sydney Rd but i see no reason to doubt the validity of their statements.

Sorry to rant but i think there is definitely more to this than has been reported thus far.

He has been charged with rape and murder in Brunswick, which rules out murder in Coburg, where he was living.

 

[KG1]

Police doing all this searching at Gisborne is a worry.

Yes, it is a worry, but they may be looking for specific item/s. However, I hope they are not looking for any more missing persons. MOO

 

[Fuskier]

Not inconceivable at all, actually, <modsnip>

Jill walks around the corner into Hope St heading for home - and Hope St is much darker and quieter than Sydney Rd. As she passes the end of the laneway on the left (she would almost certainly have been walking on that side of the street as that is the side off which Lux Way turns), alleged perp grabs her and a quick king hit uppercut and she's out cold. That would leave no signs of a struggle, as there would be NO struggle. And she dropped her handbag right there, which he didn't see or notice, especially since she probably still had the bigger ABC bag over her shoulder and he probably assumed that was the only one she had.

Then, presumably either assaulted on the ground down the end of that laneway where the grassy bit is, or dragged into his car and raped there.

Nope - not inconceivable at all. The more I ponder it, the more I see this as the most likely scenario.

Whether the murder part was then carried out deliberately somehow, the details of which we don't know, or whether she died from airway obstruction, for example, due to being unconscious, is something that we may know much later. After all, there is a reason why we place people/patients in the semi-prone position if they're unconscious - to protect their airway and keep it open. I doubt the alleged perp even thought of that... and may have been surprised to find she had died. Which may in turn lead to a "Not guilty" plea at least to the murder part...

Thanks DrWatson, agree not inconceivable at all. Good theory for a single perpetrator. However, for the VPolice to charge 'murder' there may have been visible evidence of this. Now what about a theory for a possible accomplice.

 

[KG1]

If one looks at a map, Wyndhamvale (where AB lived early last year), is in a direct line, cross country, to Gisborne and Gisborne South.

 

[DrWatson]

Thanks DrWatson, agree not inconceivable at all. Good theory for a single perpetrator. However, for the VPolice to charge 'murder' there may have been visible evidence of this. Now what about a theory for a possible accomplice.

Morning Fuskier

While an accomplice is always a possibility, I doubt he had one. And the charge of murder wouldn't need visible evidence - just the fact that she died and it was allegedly caused by him by whatever means would be enough to warrant the murder charge, I would have thought. And that is where I can see devious lawyers weedling a "Not Guilty" plea to try and get it dropped to manslaughter or accidental death, for example. The theory being that while yes, he allegedly hit her, there was no intent to kill and that the death was accidental.

Hopefully they DON'T try that one on - I suspect that it would get even the most impartial of juries angry.

 

[LeoBear]

Thanks DrWatson, agree not inconceivable at all. Good theory for a single perpetrator. However, for the VPolice to charge 'murder' there may have been visible evidence of this. Now what about a theory for a possible accomplice.

Interesting theory by the good Dr Watson. But I'm not buying it - sorry. Someone covered thus earlier. Rape is not about sex (alone), it is about power and domination. If the victim is out cold - perp does not see his victim see his power. Also, wouldn't the charge be manslaughter if death were accidental.

Re accomplice, you would have to delve into the perp's history - which is out of bounds. But there is no evidence of it that we know of

PS The reported search for DNA in Gisbourne (?) sounds strange. The cops have the victim's body. They have a taped confession. What are they looking for?

 

[bearbear]

Interesting theory by the good Dr Watson. But I'm not buying it - sorry. Someone covered thus earlier. Rape is not about sex (alone), it is about power and domination. If the victim is out cold - perp does not see his victim see his power. Also, wouldn't the charge be manslaughter if death were accidental.

Re accomplice, you would have to delve into the perp's history - which is out of bounds. But there is no evidence of it that we know of

PS The reported search for DNA in Gisbourne (?) sounds strange. The cops have the victim's body. They have a taped confession. What are they looking for?

maybe they are searching for any evidence of interference to jills body or jills dna in his home? so they can lay further charges.

 

[bearbear]

Not inconceivable at all, actually, <modsnip>

Jill walks around the corner into Hope St heading for home - and Hope St is much darker and quieter than Sydney Rd. As she passes the end of the laneway on the left (she would almost certainly have been walking on that side of the street as that is the side off which Lux Way turns), alleged perp grabs her and a quick king hit uppercut and she's out cold. That would leave no signs of a struggle, as there would be NO struggle. And she dropped her handbag right there, which he didn't see or notice, especially since she probably still had the bigger ABC bag over her shoulder and he probably assumed that was the only one she had.

Then, presumably either assaulted on the ground down the end of that laneway where the grassy bit is, or dragged into his car and raped there.

Nope - not inconceivable at all. The more I ponder it, the more I see this as the most likely scenario.

Whether the murder part was then carried out deliberately somehow, the details of which we don't know, or whether she died from airway obstruction, for example, due to being unconscious, is something that we may know much later. After all, there is a reason why we place people/patients in the semi-prone position if they're unconscious - to protect their airway and keep it open. I doubt the alleged perp even thought of that... and may have been surprised to find she had died. Which may in turn lead to a "Not guilty" plea at least to the murder part...

i agree, this is the simplest scenario. that laneway goes way back and was probably his base, a good hiding place for his car, and who knows, he could have been parking in there regularly, just waiting. so creepy!

 

[DrWatson]

Interesting theory by the good Dr Watson. But I'm not buying it - sorry. Someone covered thus earlier. Rape is not about sex (alone), it is about power and domination. If the victim is out cold - perp does not see his victim see his power. Also, wouldn't the charge be manslaughter if death were accidental.

Morning LeoBear I take your point about sex not being the only thing driving rape, but I think that it varies and we can't generalise. Some rapists would be all about the power and domination, while others may be all about the sexual gratification that they can't get any other way. Or in this case, maybe knocking her out cold WAS his way of domination? Who knows? But I take your point.

And my point about the possibility of the death being accidental was more about the defence claiming that, despite the current charge being murder.

We just don't know what went on in that interview room.....

 

[LeoBear]

i agree, this is the simplest scenario. that laneway goes way back and was probably his base, a good hiding place for his car, and who knows, he could have been parking in there regularly, just waiting. so creepy!

Thanks BearBear. It's mysterious. The police say Brunswick is the murder site - so presumably, all evidence relating to that crime is there or in the perp's car. So what are we looking for in the dump site? The only things I can think of are the missing ABC bag and more bodies.

 

[possumheart]

At first he was friendly but insistent. He was not in Sydney Road early on Saturday morning, had not spoken to the victim and was not the man on the CCTV footage.
After some hours police played their ace. They showed him evidence that he was the man.
Police will allege he eventually admitted he grabbed Ms Meagher, took her to a side street and sexually assaulted her.
They will produce the videoed confession in which he says he drove to Gisborne and used his own shovel to dig a shallow grave to hide his victim.
After initially denying any involvement he finally took police to the site where the body was recovered.
http://m.theage.com.au/victoria/meet-me-at-the-pub-20120928-26r4d.html
BBM

 

[bearbear]

At first he was friendly but insistent. He was not in Sydney Road early on Saturday morning, had not spoken to the victim and was not the man on the CCTV footage.
After some hours police played their ace. They showed him evidence that he was the man.
Police will allege he eventually admitted he grabbed Ms Meagher, took her to a side street and sexually assaulted her.
They will produce the videoed confession in which he says he drove to Gisborne and used his own shovel to dig a shallow grave to hide his victim.
After initially denying any involvement he finally took police to the site where the body was recovered.
http://m.theage.com.au/victoria/meet-me-at-the-pub-20120928-26r4d.html
BBM

i found it interesting police used psychological knowledge of the perp to set the scene for his "interview" as a friendly place, where he felt at ease to talk, <modsnip>.
cant find the msm link sorry.

 

[DrWatson]

Thanks BearBear. It's mysterious. The police say Brunswick is the murder site - so presumably, all evidence relating to that crime is there or in the perp's car. So what are we looking for in the dump site? The only things I can think of are the missing ABC bag and more bodies.

Or Jill's phone or SIM card....

 

[SandyGG]

First post, very long time lurker!

I was considering some of Dr Watson's clever posts.
My understanding of murder is that an act that an "average" person knows could cause death even if murder is not intended is enough for a charge. So, for example, if someone was strangled or hit on the head etc and later died in an unbroken chain of events, it is murder.

Also, if someone dies during the commision of another crime, like robbery or as in this case, abduction, they will be charged with murder.

Hope that makes sense!

 

[possumheart]

:welcome: SandyGG

 

[possumheart]

i found it interesting police used psychological knowledge of the perp to set the scene for his "interview" as a friendly place, where he felt at ease to talk, <modsnip>.
cant find the msm link sorry.

Surveillance police observed him behave as if an average guy from the suburbs, heading to work and following his normal routine. <modsnip>and the CCTV vision showed him talking to the victim just before she disappeared.
As he was followed on Thursday morning by The Dogs, Crew Four started to rehearse the interview they would conduct with him later that day. They spoke to police who had previously dealt with him and carefully prepared a strategy designed for his personality.
The interview room was arranged to be non-threatening. Gone was the desk, the notebooks and the straight questions of a formal record of interview.
This was to be a friendly conversation rather than the third degree.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/police-feared-more-killings-20120928-26qql.html#ixzz28Hl65Bsc
http://www.smh.com.au/national/police-feared-more-killings-20120928-26qql.html

 

[DrWatson]

First post, very long time lurker!

I was considering some of Dr Watson's clever posts.
My understanding of murder is that an act that an "average" person knows could cause death even if murder is not intended is enough for a charge. So, for example, if someone was strangled or hit on the head etc and later died in an unbroken chain of events, it is murder.

Also, if someone dies during the commision of another crime, like robbery or as in this case, abduction, they will be charged with murder.

Hope that makes sense!

Morning Sandy Yes - I agree entirely. The point I was making about an "accidental" death was that it may be one line that the defence may try. We were discussing on here a little while ago as to how somebody may plead "Not Guilty" after an apparent confession, and the "accidental unintended death" line may be one such avenue. I certainly don't agree with it at all, but as you know, the judicial system gets all hung up on the finer points of law sometimes, and this could be one line of defence.

But, like most here, I sure hope he pleads guilty after the alleged video confession.

Also, not so sure about my posts being clever I like to think of them more as being logical thinking and based on facts as we know them.... with a bit of medical expertise thrown in where appropriate. But thank you...

 

[marlywings]

Another reminder that we are NOT allowed to mention or discuss accused's history. There have been multiple warnings given about this to date. Please comply with the rules or mods will start issuing time-outs.

 

[Amee]

Greg Barns is a barrister and criminal law spokesman for the Australian Lawyers Alliance.

Read more: http://www.canberratimes.com.au/nat...on-facebook-20121003-26zgt.html#ixzz28HzWJpgN