GUILTY Australia - Jill Meagher, 29, Melbourne, 22 Sep 2012 #5

[LegallyBrunette]

<modsnip>

Just re the "Get out of here" evidence; while I initially assumed it was Jill, the more I think about it, the more I think it may have been a third party, perhaps another resident nearby, hearing the scuffling or commotion, in the laneway. If in fact it WAS that phrase. And of course we don't know just how non-English speaking the witnesses are. The fact that they needed an interpreter just suggests that they have difficulties with the language and in particular, the language that may be used in court. Hence the interpreter. But many people can actually understand the language better than they can express it.

I can understand French and German, for example, WAY better than I can speak it. And if I heard a single phrase, repeated, I could probably recall it pretty accurately - even if I didn't know what it meant.

However, I agree that that piece of evidence - in isolation - poses as many questions as it may answer.

I tend to think it was Jill, saying 'get out of there'. 'There' being somewhere intimate he shouldn't have been. Looking at the new cctv footage, she was pretty heavily intoxicated, she may not have realised the attack for what it was at first, thinking it's just some guy trying to take liberties. :twocents:

 

[SisterWolf]

I was thinking that AB probably tried to call him after his car ran out of petrol.

I thought that would fit the time frame but when you consider the cctv footage of his car entering and exiting the laneway at 4.22 to 4.25 am, that would mean he was trying to call his friend 35 minutes later. You would think that he would have still had Jill's body in his car at that stage. It wouldn't have been enough time to drive to Gisborne and bury her and start driving home again.

The only thing I can think of is trying to find an alibi for himself.

Agreed. We know for a fact that he is caught driving out of the city towards Gisborne on the Citylink Moreland Rd. Gantry camera surveilance at approximately 4.40am, in which he would have had Jill's body in the boot of his car. Given that he'd still have to get to Gisborne, and dig the grave and bury Jill, yes, it's pretty clear IMO that he called his friend in an attempt to have an alibi.

 

[SisterWolf]

I tend to think it was Jill, saying 'get out of there'. 'There' being somewhere intimate he shouldn't have been. Looking at the new cctv footage, she was pretty heavily intoxicated, she may not have realised the attack for what it was at first, thinking it's just some guy trying to take liberties. :twocents:

I originally considered this too, however what made me discount it as unlikely was her body language in the CCTV outside Duchess Boutique and that she was worried enough to ring her brother in Perth, and according to him "sounded very worried". I just don't see her trying to downplay it in any way. It really doesn't strike me as anything you would say in that situation. I just think even though she may have been intoxicated or heavily intoxicated, the fact that she was alone and there weren't many people in the vicinity would have heightened her instincts and her intuition would have been telling her that something didn't feel right. I can see how uncomfortable she is in the CCTV footage. I think most women have felt that and been in a similar situation. Fortunately they don't all end the way this has. JMO

 

[Kitoki]

I was thinking that AB probably tried to call him after his car ran out of petrol.

I thought that would fit the time frame but when you consider the cctv footage of his car entering and exiting the laneway at 4.22 to 4.25 am, that would mean he was trying to call his friend 35 minutes later. You would think that he would have still had Jill's body in his car at that stage. It wouldn't have been enough time to drive to Gisborne and bury her and start driving home again.

The only thing I can think of is trying to find an alibi for himself.

I noticed that too when I went back to it, Ozelulu & SisterWolf.

But now that I've thought about it some more I still think our first thought was probably correct. I think it is possible that the report is slightly out anyway with the time - there are a few funny things in the the way the media have been reporting the timeline. Either way, I still think he called his friend for help with the petrol, rather than an alibi.

I'm not sure if this has already been discussed in earlier threads but I have done that particular drive a lot and he could have made it from Hope St to Gisborne South in 35 minutes at that time of night. As SisterWolf mentions, and he was clocked at Moreland Road on the Citylink camera at 4:40am, so he probably arrived in Gisborne by 5-5.10am (faster if he were speeding which is certainly possible).

The report said between 5-6 am, but if the calls really started from 5.30 - 6.00, that was almost the exact time he was desperately low or completely out of petrol and lost, unsure where the nearest petrol station was.

The motorist who picked him up indicated it was about 6am when he found him and that he was surprised someone who said he worked locally was unfamiliar with the area. He was at the Sunbury Caltex at 6.16am.
(see link) http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...values-by-bayley/story-fndo2dsc-1226597655513

The only petrol station that AB would pass between Moreland Road and the final destination at Gisborne South is a 24 hour Roadside BP on the Calder Hwy at Diggers Rest. It is around 12-15kms back towards Melbourne from Gisborne South and it made me wonder if the petrol light was was the reason he chose the burial site that he did.

Perhaps he didn't notice the petrol light earlier or perhaps he did but didn't want to stop to fill up or risk breaking down without completing his task . I know that in some of the new Astras, the petrol light starts blinking and then beeping, so it may have become apparent at some stage that he wouldn't make it back to the only petrol station he had passed, and he was forced to go find somewhere close. It still makes sense to me that the most likely reason he tried to call his acquaintance to ask him for help or directions to the local service station before the motorist stopped to help at around 6am.

:moo:

 

[Brightbird]

As a female I think I can imagine saying "get out of there" or something similar, but probably in a state of shock and disorientation. It's a bit like "stop it" or "get away". Personally, I think I'd struggle to even scream so the fact she might have said something we wouldn't expect is not surprising to me. Also, we don't know the emotional tone in the voice either (i.e irritation vs. fear). I'm on the fence as to whether it was Jill. The husband said he also heard "something like throwing things, that noise, or smash things". Again, that could be other neighbours or people hanging around. But I think it's too coincidental, so perhaps I'm leaning towards that voice being Jill. Poor Jill, my heart still sinks

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/bayleys-wish-for-his-own-death-penalty-20130312-2fx8i.html

 

[Angeline]

That was a very detailed article, including some parts of the police interview I hadn't read before.

I think it could have been Jill saying it. Perhaps she was intoxicated and not realising the gravity of the situation, thinking that if she told him assertively he would go away. But again it doesn't make sense because he was supposed to have dragged her into the lane. She would be terrified. Maybe because of the familiarity (he said they had a conversation earlier), she thought she could reason with him. I don't know... it's all a bit of a mystery at this stage.

 

[inkpink]

He ran out of fuel after he buried Jill

ACCUSED killer Adrian Bayley begged a motorist for a lift after he ran out of petrol on his way home from burying Jill Meagher, according to statements tendered in court.

After the man reluctantly agreed to take him to a service station and back to his car, Bayley asked whether he wanted any money. The man refused.

"He then thanked me, and said it was good to see someone with old-fashioned values," the motorist said.

He noticed the stranger "had grass all over the lower legs of his pants".

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/la...values-by-bayley/story-fnat79vb-1226597655513

 

[klx77]

Hi, I just signed up but been following this for a while and just wanted to add some thing,
There has been alot of talk as to why no screams and how did he get jill down the lane way,
And i remembered back to when Ab was first named they took his facebook page down but some people had screen captured it and it showed he had likes for things like UFC and mixed martial arts and as a follower of these myself i think you dont have to watch for long before you realise one of the most popular submission moves is the rear naked choke, not only does this move stop you from talking, screaming ect it render you unconcios in a matter of seconds due to blood supply being cut off to the brain and it is a move you can learn from just watching it a few times, if he approached her from behind and used this style of choke there would be nothing she could to alert anyone but she could reach back to scratch him!, once unconscious he could drag her into the alley way, this could explain the muscle bleed and the rest would be caused from strangleing her at the end breaking the larynx.

Sorry for any spelling errors and if this has allready been mentiond

 

[klx77]

Also im wondering if the "get out of there" that was heard might have be a bit like when they tell you at school not to yell rape but to yell fire, as people are more likely to come out and help and respond quicker, maybe yelling get out off there gets a better reaction due to residents thinking it might be there own yard that somone is in?

 

[Macca]

I'm new here, but just wanted to say that from my experience of growing up in an Irish household, "git outta there" is a common phrase in the idiom. It seemed completely feasible to me that Jill Meagher might say this when I first heard it reported - it can have multiple meanings, and a vigorous command to cease activity and to go away are two of them. It may indeed be that she didn't say this, but it's far from unlikely given her heritage. MOO.

 

[Ozelulu]

That's interesting Macca. I hadn't heard of that saying before but that would make perfect sense. Thanks for your input and welcome to Websleuths.

 

[somanto]

I find it really hard to believe the 'get out of there' came from anyone besides Jill. I think it's equally an odd thing for a resident/bystander to yell out and why wouldn't they call the police if they were so concerned? The fact the voice was female and sounded drunk is also significant to me. I think as mentioned above there are probably cultural factors at play which is why the whole thing has appeared strange to some people.

 

[moreinfo]

Thanks Marly I saw that, but was wondering why a person would have so many filled buckets in their laundry. Probably completely unrelated and more my nosiness.

maybe they recycle laundry water. Each bucket has a different shade.
I used to do this.

 

[Bausslols]

I know the thread has moved on but I just wanted to very quickly return to the whole issue I raised a few posts earlier regarding full disclosure of this case.

You guys are right, this is a complicated issue with much to consider. Paulie and some others raised many good points but for me, ultimately the concerns of the family dictate my view on this.

They have gone through unimaginable trauma that I hope none of us have experienced or ever will experience. To then say to her family, "we are going to release full details of this case, including all footage (possibly of the kidnap/rape itself), against your will, in the interests of the public" to me, seems unbelievably cruel and almost akin to psychological torture.

A society that treats the families of victims in this manner, in the pretense of public safety, is a society that deserves neither safety nor freedom of information, in my opinion.

Having said all that, I think it is absolutely deplorable that this turd would ever been released in the first place and I completely understand the points people are making about this tragedy shining a light on these issues.

But let me pose this question, which of the following headlines would have more of an effect?

1-Jill's full ordeal released: With photos and videos.

2-How Jill's death could have been avoided, and why it WILL happen again; maybe to someone you know.

That 30,000 strong crowd should have converged on the Courts or at Parliament House. The fact is, this tragedy could have been avoided. It's not her family that needs to keep suffering, it's the legislators, parole boards, politicians etc that need to suffer for being responsible for making the justice system what it is. Where convicted rapists such as AB can just walk around. 16 counts of rape (I think) and this guy was still on the streets. Absolutely disgusting.

My 2 cents but I get other peoples view points on this matter. We all ultimately want the same thing, and that is, for turds to stay in prison where they belong.

 

[Bausslols]

I find it really hard to believe the 'get out of there' came from anyone besides Jill. I think it's equally an odd thing for a resident/bystander to yell out and why wouldn't they call the police if they were so concerned? The fact the voice was female and sounded drunk is also significant to me. I think as mentioned above there are probably cultural factors at play which is why the whole thing has appeared strange to some people.

Now that Macca has explained it, I'm beginning to come around to this view. But, I still find it strange though for 2 main reasons:

1- Even after Macca's explanation, it still is not something I would imagine a rape victim to say when being physically assaulted. The likely response is to scream. However, as some people have said, she may not have been fully aware of what was happening (let's hope so)

2- And this is a big one for me. Why would a rapist allow his victim to say anything? Apparently, whoever it was, said it multiple times. Each time, loudly and unmuffled. AB probably knew there were residential/commercial areas nearby and surely must have been careful to keep her silent.

If it actually was her, I just so wish she screamed or asked for help, I'm sure that Asian couple would have done something. By the time police arrived it may have been too late, they would have seen the body, but it would have at least prevented Tom from experiencing that long week of hell. My god, what that man went through is not something I would ever wish even on my worst enemy.

 

[SisterWolf]

I completely agree with everything you said in both those posts Bausslols - couldn't have said it better! It is breaking my heart thinking of Tom and the amount of pain and emotional turmoil he's in. He's been so strong and so dignified, I think it would be appalling if an autopsy report, highly disturbing details, and/or footage of the actual kidnapping/attack (that's just insane - you wouldn't do that to a victim's family) were released to the public.

I agree everyone should be protesting on the steps of parliament. It's disgraceful how apathetic people in this country are. Look how long ago Anita Cobby's murder was and our justice system still hasn't been reformed! If ANY case was going to affect change due to the public outcry it would have had to have been that one.

I DO think there needs to be a Royal Commission into WHY a violent serial rapist convicted of 16 rapes was free to walk around the streets with absolutely no surveilance or tracking, or WHY he was even let out in the first place! Bilal Skaf was originally handed down a 55 year sentence for the gang rape of that girl in Sydney. That is the ONLY judge who I've ever seen give an adequate sentence for rape. Unfortunately some other judge overruled that decision on appeal and he got a huge reduction in his sentence.

I think the parole board, Judge Anthony Duckett, the previous judges ruling on his rape sentences, and possibly Vic Pol have A LOT of questions to answer because someone should be giving the Meagher family and Tom a massive payout. It's just UNFATHOMABLE to me that he was walking around a free man! I was livid when I found out, especially when I read Judge Duckett's sentencing remarks and sentence. Disgraceful. There
needs to be a complete overhaul of the judicial system and the parole system. We only recently got the law of provocation removed for christ's sake! The most ridiculous law that has ever existed! (Clearly made by a patriarchal society to excuse the killing of a woman). How insanely archaic is that law?!! Yet James Ramage got away with murdering his wife Julie because of it. He SAID "She provoked me". How on earth can you PROVOKE someone to murder you?!!! She got sick of his violence and abuse and she stood up for herself and hurt his ego in the process. Apparently hurting a man's ego is enough to provoke them to murder you and that's ok. It's excusable. WTF?! I am sick to death of people who can't control their tempers using it as an excuse to get off scott-free on criminal charges, and serious ones at that!

It's time this country stopped treating women and children as second-class citizens, and nowhere is this more apparent than in the judicial system. :banghead::

 

[rez125]

AB probably knew there were residential/commercial areas nearby and surely must have been careful to keep her silent.

We know he's a dimwit though (thankfully) so not surprising he allowed her to yell for a bit. I really find it strange she didn't scream.. perhaps she planned to and he threatened her after her multiple 'get out of theres'.

Or she did and we're yet to hear about it.

I hope the cops have a plethora of cards up their sleeves so this scum is nailed to the wall.

 

[gia2]

We know he's a dimwit though (thankfully) so not surprising he allowed her to yell for a bit. I really find it strange she didn't scream.. perhaps she planned to and he threatened her after her multiple 'get out of theres'.

Or she did and we're yet to hear about it.

I hope the cops have a plethora of cards up their sleeves so this scum is nailed to the wall.

It's probably a long shot but I wonder if he ran up to her and grabbed her bag to lure her nearer to somewhere he could grab her. She may have shouted what she did because she thought she was being robbed and not in danger of being physically attacked (that is if it was her who shouted that and if the wording is correct). Perhaps at that point she was still unaware of his real intentions.

We know he told women he attacked they were being followed, I wouldn't put it past him to try something like that. Whilst he doesn't seem intelligent he does seem incredibly devious and a natural hunter. His interviews just make my stomach turn.


This is my first post on the forum so wantes to say hello to you all. I've been reading for a while and kept up with the case since the begining. What it highlights is that there is a problem in many countries where there is completely incompetent legal systems that don't protect the innocent but instead protect the rights of criminals who go on to ruin and take lives.
The justice system is so messed up. Hurting a woman like this is the worst type of crime there is and that should be reflected in the legal system.

I feel so awful for Jills husband, family and friends, I hope they get the support they will need long term to find a way through their loss.

 

[LegallyBrunette]

Hi and welcome gia2

I've said this several times long ago on this thread and will repeat it again. Apart from parole board who have much to answer for, IMO, if local police had taken notice of the NZ nurse's reports, Jill may still be alive. Too late after the event praising them for such a great job in arresting AB.

Edited by me...

30.9.2012. Nurse Stacey Scaife, who moved to Melbourne from Christchurch last year, went into Brunswick Police Station in December and asked if she could buy pepper-spray to defend herself from a "terrifying" man who had approached her on two separate occasions near the spot Meagher was last seen alive.
The man crept up behind her on a dark street, wearing a dark, hooded leather jacket, jeans and white shoes, and told her he was going to strangle her. Despite describing the threat to police and asking how she could defend herself, she said no details of the incident were recorded. At the time, Scaife lived about 500m from Meagher, 29.

CCTV footage released last week of Meagher speaking to Bayley on the night she died, left Scaife in "disbelief".
She said she had "no doubt" it was Bayley who had threatened her own life nine months ago and felt "it could have been me". He was even wearing the same jeans and white shoes, Scaife said. "I instantly recognised him from the way he was walking and the way he was talking to her."

Scaife was with a group of friends when a man singled her out and started talking to her at a rapid pace about how he used to "smash people with his brother in a boxing ring".

The nurse believed he was either on drugs or having a manic-bipolar episode.

He started to punch and kick the air around her "pretending like he was in a boxing ring" and Scaife said when the lights went green, she crossed the street to get away from him.

The second time he approached her, about six weeks later, he was a lot more sinister, she said
A man "came up behind me, close to my ear and started talking in a loud whisper. He was saying something about nunchucks and strangling me with them. He was talking really fast again like last time and he just kept describing to me how he was going to kill me. He kept saying it over and over, &#8216;I'm going to kill you'."

Her friends came back to try to get the man away from Scaife. Afterwards, Scaife decided to go to the police and was disappointed they did not record the incident at the time.

She rang Crime Stoppers on Thursday afternoon.

Neither Crime Stoppers nor the police have contacted Ms Scaife since.

The first time she was approached by the man was on the corner of Sydney Road and Hope Street in November - only metres from where Ms Meagher's discarded handbag was found.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/it-could-have-been-me-20120929-26skp.html#ixzz2NpYiCYIY

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/7748090/Suspect-said-he-d-kill-me-says-nurse

 

[Fuskier]

I know the thread has moved on but I just wanted to very quickly return to the whole issue I raised a few posts earlier regarding full disclosure of this case ... <respectfully snipped> ...

A society that treats the families of victims in this manner, in the pretense of public safety, is a society that deserves neither safety nor freedom of information, in my opinion.

Having said all that, I think it is absolutely deplorable that this turd would ever been released in the first place and I completely understand the points people are making about this tragedy shining a light on these issues.

... Jill's death could have been avoided, and it WILL happen again; maybe to someone you know.

That 30,000 strong crowd should have converged on the Courts or at Parliament House. The fact is, this tragedy could have been avoided. It's not her family that needs to keep suffering, it's the legislators, parole boards, politicians etc that need to suffer for being responsible for making the justice system what it is. Where convicted rapists such as AB can just walk around. 16 counts of rape (I think) and this guy was still on the streets. Absolutely disgusting.
...We all ultimately want the same thing, and that is, for turds to stay in prison where they belong.

Well said IMO.:goodpost: