Australia - JS, 32 y.o. man, charged w/ murder of 9 y.o. girl , Mt Wilson, 13 January 2022

[Wexford]

So if the reports are correct that KM was staying at the caravan park, and assuming that after the 000 phone call on the Friday there was no one staying at the Wilderstein let alone any children, why were there plain clothes child protection officers at Wilderstein on the Monday as reported in MSM?

"Dramatic footage captured by Daily Mail Australia showed police cars and a large number of detectives on foot swoop on the retreat at 11.30am on Monday.

Investigators ordered the media to 'leave, now!' from outside the gates on Monday morning - moments after plain clothes child protection squad officers drove into the property.

A police bus followed by unmarked police cars rolled through the gates as a uniformed officer stood guard.

They stayed at the property for five hours before leaving that afternoon."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10412073/Huge-twist-search-C-M-Mount-Wilson.html

Are there any other children?

 

[Empathy]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed due to sub judice>

In my opinion this event was particularly relevant to the subsequent finding of CM.
I also believe that Police may have found the pink top and black skirt during this visit ......????? as it was at the search the next day when it was announced they no longer knew what CM was wearing when she was last seen....

Or the other alternative is that they had been able to speak to GM about what clothes were packed in CM's bag for the holiday, and what may have been missing?.....imo

'It's day five. She's not going to be mobile,' a police officer told the Rural Fire Service and SES searchers.
The officer warned them that CM would need water from a 'bottle, puddle or dam'.
He couldn't provide them with a description of what clothes she might be wearing as 'we don't have clothing unfortunately. We don't know what she is wearing'.
C M search: Missing girl's stepdad | Daily Mail Online


I have also read that Police were possibly able to speak to relatives during this visit...... Perhaps the mother and father of JS was taken to the estate to answer questions about the property and CCTV etc ??

A convoy of detectives and uniformed police drove every day to Wildenstein, inside which they are believe to have interviews relatives of Justin Stein.
C M: Mum is pregnant with alleged baby | Daily Mail Online


Also possible, in my opinion, that CM's GParents was taken to the Estate in the Police Van that day to identify what may have belonged to CM, or KM, to establish if she was living at the estate or not??? and media were told leave for privacy of the victim's relatives...

All IMO

Yes all valid points!

 

[they'll get you]

I need help, it’s bothering me.


Locals. Which bridge over the Colo <modsnip>?

The bridge to nowhere at lower Portland or the Colo Bridge on the Putty Road?

Because of the close proximity of the van park, the Lower Portland ferry and the bridge to nowhere, I’m starting to think it could’ve been this bridge (which is over the Colo River as well)

Thoughts please?

 

[bfew]

The main house was used for weddings and receptions and for Bridal couples to stay in for their weddings, that was until COVID arrived and it all fell apart.

The later 2019 bushfires would have hit them for six well before COVID.

 

[they'll get you]

When Peter Astill went missing during August, 1998, it took three months before his decapitated body (missing his head and hands), and also wrapped in a blanket was found stuffed inside a wheelie bin floating in a river in Lower Colo, NSW.

Forensic Investigators - Wikipedia

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN WARNING:

See post #2 of this discussion thread.

Members have been informed what they can not post. Mods are very busy and don't have time to be reviewing every post in this discussion to ensure compliance.

Members who post in violation of sub judice will be place on thread reply bans or on Time Out.

 

[DamnSam]

This might be a good time to review the formal definition of murder in the state of NSW where charge of murder against JS has been laid. It is contained in Section 18 of the NSW Crimes Act, which I reproduce in full here:

18 Murder and manslaughter defined
(1) (a) Murder shall be taken to have been committed where the act of the accused, or thing by him or her omitted to be done, causing the death charged, was done or omitted with reckless indifference to human life, or with intent to kill or inflict grievous bodily harm upon some person, or done in an attempt to commit, or during or immediately after the commission, by the accused, or some accomplice with him or her, of a crime punishable by imprisonment for life or for 25 years.

(b) Every other punishable homicide shall be taken to be manslaughter.

(2)(a) No act or omission which was not malicious, or for which the accused had lawful cause or excuse, shall be within this section.

(b) No punishment or forfeiture shall be incurred by any person who kills another by misfortune only.

View - NSW legislation

We've heard various MSM reports of what the police believe and what lines of inquiry they're taking, but as far as I know the recent press conference is the only official statement from them since the charge was laid.

I've transcribed as carefully as I can two key relevant questions and answers to the NSW Deputy Commissioner for police at the media conference that followed the accused's court appearance on 19 January.

[At 10:20 in the press conference] In response to a question about what the police believed happened to CM.

"Last night we obviously found the remains - human remains consistent with the missing girl. Until the post-mortem is conducted we are still uncertain of what exactly happened to her. What we are sure of is that the accused that we charged with murder was responsible for personally placing her in the barrel and disposing of that barrel in the bushland where she was located. So as the Commissioner indicated we are very much in the early stages of this investigation. Things will unravel over the next week or so, to find a cause of death and a purpose for her death and try and identify exactly what happened so that the remaining family have some comfort in that." [my emphasis]

[At 11:08 in the press conference] In response to a question about whether the police will be alleging that the accused acted alone:

"We don't speculate in relation to investigations, we investigate. The investigation will be ongoing. At this stage we have no evidence to support anything else than the accused acted alone. However it's still early days in the investigation."

The press conference can be viewed here:

It's worth comparing the responses of the Deputy Commissioner with the Crimes Act's definition of murder. The things he says he is "sure of" do not by themselves (but criminal lawyers please chime to correct me here) seem sufficient to sustain a charge of murder. In particular he does not say they are sure the accused caused her death.

It sounds like the police are waiting for the autopsy results and whatever emerges from ongoing investigative activities and information from the public, to firm up the evidence for murder.

 

[Marg944]

The LE are looking at 2 sites at the caravan park......


"The caravan CM’s mother was believed to be staying in at the time of her daughter’s death has been declared a crime scene and is now under police guard.

Detectives and forensic officers spent hours swarming every inch of the white 1970s caravan and a nearby cabin at the Riviera Ski Garden, on the banks of the Hawkesbury River, on Friday.

Officers took away multiple bags of potential evidence for forensic analysis."

Caravan and a nearby cabin searched

 

[JayJay01060]

What are the best news outlets and times to listen for updates? I seem to think 2GB but during what time of day?

 

[MIG214222]

The later 2019 bushfires would have hit them for six well before COVID.

The hidden bushfire: inside the Blue Mountains backburn

 

[bfew]

The main house was used for weddings and receptions and for Bridal couples to stay in for their weddings, that was until COVID arrived and it all fell apart.

The later 2019 bushfires would have hit them for six well before COVID.

The hidden bushfire: inside the Blue Mountains backburn

 

[nightrider17]

I don't understand the following:

With the timeline being suggested as CM deceased between 7:00pm Tuesday and 10.00 am Wednesday. What were JS and KM doing from Wednesday 10:00 am onwards - sleeping?
And where did KM believe CM to be?? during all of Wednesday.
Because allegedly KM last saw CM Thursday afternoon.
Was KM away until Thursday afternoon? MOO

 

[nightrider17]

As per Sleepinozc According to Google maps, the fastest route from the park to Wildenstein, includes a ferry ride.

Does that ferry mean - no car - just passengers?

As bearbear - mentioned maybe need to go to pick up boat from Wildenstein. So possibly no ferry ride back - just one way.

 

[they'll get you]

I wonder why JS and CM were on the ferry. I am not seeing why they were on the other side of the river (just from looking at Google maps) - unless maybe he drove CM down from Qld and needed to use the ferry then.

Is there some other reason they would have been on the other side of the river?

DOH!
I forgot about the Sackville Ferry.

 

[they'll get you]

I need help, it’s bothering me.


Locals. Which bridge over the Colo <modsnip>?

The bridge to nowhere at lower Portland or the Colo Bridge on the Putty Road?

Because of the close proximity of the van park, the Lower Portland ferry and the bridge to nowhere, I’m starting to think it could’ve been this bridge (which is over the Colo River as well)

Thoughts please?

I forgot about the Sackville ferry.
Good to know a real close by local.

 

[Rumination1]

It’s so frustrating KM still hasn’t spoken to police!! If she genuinely had nothing to do with CM’s murder wouldn’t she be wanting to give police as much information as possible???
How long until police can force her to speak?

My thinking was that during questioning she made a suicide attempt and since the. Questions have been held back

That they have charged him w murder whilst the police say they are only certain he placed her in the barrel makes me confused . Did the act of placing her in the barrel , murder her and they have finger prints?

I continue to wonder why the three day gap in reporting ..., also no actions stated from him on the weds. Were they both so out of it those 48 hours passed in oblivion?

 

[Waverider]

This might be a good time to review the formal definition of murder in the state of NSW where charge of murder against JS has been laid. It is contained in Section 18 of the NSW Crimes Act, which I reproduce in full here:

18 Murder and manslaughter defined
(1) (a) Murder shall be taken to have been committed where the act of the accused, or thing by him or her omitted to be done, causing the death charged, was done or omitted with reckless indifference to human life, or with intent to kill or inflict grievous bodily harm upon some person, or done in an attempt to commit, or during or immediately after the commission, by the accused, or some accomplice with him or her, of a crime punishable by imprisonment for life or for 25 years.

(b) Every other punishable homicide shall be taken to be manslaughter.

(2)(a) No act or omission which was not malicious, or for which the accused had lawful cause or excuse, shall be within this section.

(b) No punishment or forfeiture shall be incurred by any person who kills another by misfortune only.

View - NSW legislation
<snipped>

It's worth comparing the responses of the Deputy Commissioner with the Crimes Act's definition of murder. The things he says he is "sure of" do not by themselves (but criminal lawyers please chime to correct me here) seem sufficient to sustain a charge of murder. In particular he does not say they are sure the accused caused her death.

It sounds like the police are waiting for the autopsy results and whatever emerges from ongoing investigative activities and information from the public, to firm up the evidence for murder.

Consciousness of guilt, lies and flight

Here’s some info on this: “The Crown can rely upon the accused’s post-offence conduct as evidence of a consciousness of guilt. This will usually be in the form of a lie (either in or out of court) or flight (absconding to avoid arrest or trial). But it can include other forms of conduct: McKey v R(2012) 219 A Crim R 227; see Pollard v R (2011) 31 VR 416, where the evidence of the accused hiding his mobile phone was admitted on this basis. Such evidence will generally be part of a Crown’s circumstantial case or evidence supporting direct evidence such as an admission.”

So, the evidence they have of the accused going to lengths to hide the body, as well as lies to police, can be used as circumstantial evidence of guilt in relation to the crime. But they obviously need more evidence for trial.

 

[they'll get you]

I wonder if /when the cadaver dogs went through the vans.

 

[Warshawski]

The suspect JS lives in a "shack" on the property, but his brother James (also, confusingly, JS) does live at Wildenstein with his husband. I also assumed the mother (the suspect's mother) doesn't live there, but I'm not sure why.

Edit: I'm sure I read somewhere that "family" were interviewed by police at Wildenstein, and I assumed that was James and husband.

Hi Webbie, it’s MO that these details are well outdated. I don’t have the links so please take this as My Opinion only, however:

* I believe JS lived in the ‘shack’ at Wildenstein years ago, before his arrest & stint as a guest of HM.
* I also believe that his brother James & his husband have both moved to Qld, along with the original gardener, so no idea who’s maintaining the place now.
* I imagine Covid really knocked its wedding bookings around, now this.

such a shame, it looks a beautiful place

 

[sleepinoz]

As per Sleepinozc According to Google maps, the fastest route from the park to Wildenstein, includes a ferry ride.

Does that ferry mean - no car - just passengers?

As bearbear - mentioned maybe need to go to pick up boat from Wildenstein. So possibly no ferry ride back - just one way.

The ferry indicated in my post (from Google Maps) is the Lower Portland Ferry.

Google Maps



According to Lower Portland Ferry | Hawkesbury People & Places - Vehicular ferry which crosses the Hawkesbury River at its confluence with the Colo River at Lower Portland. The small three car ferry which had a load capacity of 12.5 tonnes was replaced in 2013 by a larger vessel.