Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #2

[Garyb]

I've been looking at the time of flights to see if she could have made it back to Australia by the 2nd of August. I think it would have been easy. Asuming she came back the same way she left.

Assuming she rang Sally at midday 30 July from the UK which would be 11pm in Brisbane. I believe it was the UK otherwise she probably wouldn't have had change for the phone.
She boards a flight to Tokyo at about 4.30 pm Uk time which even today seems to be available.
Its an 11 hour plus flight so she arrives in Tokyo at about 1.30pm 1 August Tokyo time.
She then catches a flight at about 5pm Tokyo time on 1 August to the East coast of Australia.
This is about a 12 hour flight which would mean she would land at about 7 am on 2 August Eastern standard time.

Planes may have been slower or had more stops but i think it works easily.

Happy to have my calculations checked.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

Thankyou for the transcription, seems to lend to the voluntary aspect of her missing.
Marion was distancing herself from her friends emotionally and talking of changing States physically. People move for career/lifestyle choices of course, however her being a single woman it is usually hard to leave family and friends.

On this alone it just goes to show they should have been extending their search just as specifically to South Australia. I know the search for her is spread out nationally through awareness raising, but they need to look at it just as closely as the likes of Byron Bay and Lennox head.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

Thankyou for the transcription, seems to lend to the voluntary aspect of her missing.
Marion was distancing herself from her friends emotionally and talking of changing States physically. People move for career/lifestyle choices of course, however her being a single woman it is usually hard to leave family and friends.

On this alone it just goes to show they should have been extending their search just as specifically to South Australia. I know the search for her is spread out nationally through awareness raising, but they need to look at it just as closely as the likes of Byron Bay and Lennox head.

 

[poppypopcorn]

Could she even have had two passports, at the same time, in different names?

 

[poppypopcorn]

Could she even have had two passports, at the same time, in different names? Here in the UK, that would be impossible. If you change your name and want to apply for a new passport, you still have to declare you've held a passport before. You send your old passport back and they return it to you with the corner snipped off. This has happened for at least 30 years. Immigration/Law enforcement would not be happy if it were possible to have people using multiple identities. Of course there are people who are entitled to more than one passport from two different countries, but not two passports from the same country in different names.

Australia House is in central London (and doubled for Gringotts Bank in the Harry Potter movies) so in theory it would be possible for Marion to enter the UK as Marion Barter, then declare her passport lost or stolen, or just pitch up at Aus Hse with the name change document and apply for a new passport. Only about an hour on the train from Tunbridge Wells into Central London. Once the passport is issued in the new identity (and the old one clipped or destroyed), she would have been free to travel back as Florabella. 4 weeks would have been plenty of time to do this.

However all this could have been achieved by travelling to somewhere a lot closer than the UK.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

You send your old passport back and they return it to you with the corner snipped off.

Same happens here in Australia. You cant have two (operational) passports in different names.

Police have confirmed that Marion traveled on the Florabella passport so it must have been updated prior to her departure

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

On this alone it just goes to show they should have been extending their search just as specifically to South Australia. I know the search for her is spread out nationally through awareness raising, but they need to look at it just as closely as the likes of Byron Bay and Lennox head.

Yes! Her last known movements may have been Byron/Lennox but shes unlikely to have stayed put (especially after the police where looking for her).

When I read the transcript from episode 3 (thanks itsapuzzle!!). It seems to me when Janice talks about Marion's restlessness she speaks as though this is a characteristic of Marion (she was a restless person) not that Marion was responding to her current stressful situation.

SA would be a good choice. Outside of Adelaide the major cities (Whyalla, Pt Lincoln, Mt Gambier) are small and theres lots of movement within the population (people coming to live there and leaving) and schools/childcare looking for experienced teachers.

 

[KiwiNZ]

I've been looking at the time of flights to see if she could have made it back to Australia by the 2nd of August. I think it would have been easy. Asuming she came back the same way she left.

Assuming she rang Sally at midday 30 July from the UK which would be 11pm in Brisbane. I believe it was the UK otherwise she probably wouldn't have had change for the phone.
She boards a flight to Tokyo at about 4.30 pm Uk time which even today seems to be available.
Its an 11 hour plus flight so she arrives in Tokyo at about 1.30pm 1 August Tokyo time.
She then catches a flight at about 5pm Tokyo time on 1 August to the East coast of Australia.
This is about a 12 hour flight which would mean she would land at about 7 am on 2 August Eastern standard time.

Planes may have been slower or had more stops but i think it works easily.

Happy to have my calculations checked.

If the dates and times stated in the timeline are correct ( which they may not be ) see the below -

Marion called on the 1st of August 1997 around 7pm AUS time / 1st of August @ 9am UK Time

Her flight landed in Brisbane at 10am 2nd of August 1997 AUS time.

That gives her 15hrs between the phone call and landing in Brisbane, if she had boarded the plane as soon as she put the phone down.

Minimum flight time from the UK to Brisbane would be a minimum 21hrs allowing for a very quick transfer.

IMO if she was in the UK when she made that call it was either not her on the flight, she was calling from the lay over, the phone call date is incorrect or the incoming flight date is in correct.

happy to have these challenged, math's isn't my strong point

 

[Garyb]

If the dates and times stated in the timeline are correct ( which they may not be ) see the below -

Marion called on the 1st of August 1997 around 7pm AUS time / 1st of August @ 9am UK Time

Her flight landed in Brisbane at 10am 2nd of August 1997 AUS time.

That gives her 15hrs between the phone call and landing in Brisbane, if she had boarded the plane as soon as she put the phone down.

Minimum flight time from the UK to Brisbane would be a minimum 21hrs allowing for a very quick transfer.

IMO if she was in the UK when she made that call it was either not her on the flight, she was calling from the lay over, the phone call date is incorrect or the incoming flight date is in correct.

happy to have these challenged, math's isn't my strong point

My understanding is the call was made on the 30th of July.

 

[JLZ]

Has there been information from ATO to the effect that Marion has not been taxed or submitted a tax return since her disappearance?

 

[KiwiNZ]

My understanding is the call was made on the 30th of July.

from their timeline below -

June 30: Marion sends Sally a letter postmarked Tunbridge Wells, Kent, England.

July: Sally receives two postcards from Marion, postmarked Sussex Coast and London.

July 7: Date on a postcard sent to Marion’s elderly relative from Brighton, Sussex.

August 1: Marion phones Sally from Tunbridge Wells, England (late afternoon/early evening AEST)

they should really have a timeline on the facebook page, and update it if things change I can only find the 7 news one and its not very detailed or up to date.

 

[Garyb]

from their timeline below -

June 30: Marion sends Sally a letter postmarked Tunbridge Wells, Kent, England.

July: Sally receives two postcards from Marion, postmarked Sussex Coast and London.

July 7: Date on a postcard sent to Marion’s elderly relative from Brighton, Sussex.

August 1: Marion phones Sally from Tunbridge Wells, England (late afternoon/early evening AEST)

they should really have a timeline on the facebook page, and update it if things change I can only find the 7 news one and its not very detailed or up to date.

Cant find now where i got the 30 july for the phone call. As you say if it was the 1st of August it couldn't be done.

The reason i think the phone call was made from the UK is that she kept having to put change in the phone and call Sally back.

I dont think you would have a pocket full of change on a quick stop over to change planes. Pretty sure phones in transit lounges are credit card only.

I dont believe someone else came back on her passport, so i think the phone call date is wrong. The identity theft theory is just to complicated. I'm sure immigration would give a high priority to confirming a passenger is the real holder of an Australian passport.

 

[thunderwombat]

Cant find now where i got the 30 july for the phone call. As you say if it was the 1st of August it couldn't be done.

Wasn't the call made because Marion was concerned about Sally being at Thredbo? The landslide happened at about 11:30 pm on July 30, local time (Wikipedia).

 

[KiwiNZ]

Cant find now where i got the 30 july for the phone call. As you say if it was the 1st of August it couldn't be done.

The reason i think the phone call was made from the UK is that she kept having to put change in the phone and call Sally back.

I dont think you would have a pocket full of change on a quick stop over to change planes. Pretty sure phones in transit lounges are credit card only.

I dont believe someone else came back on her passport, so i think the phone call date is wrong. The identity theft theory is just to complicated. I'm sure immigration would give a high priority to confirming a passenger is the real holder of an Australian passport.

I agree I think the dates are wrong.

In the late 90's you would be silly to use coins to make an international call in the UK from a phone box, all shops sell calling cards at a massively discounted rate to BT calls charges. There were available everywhere. But she could have used coins.

I agree it was her on the flight and either the call date is wrong or the flight arrival is wrong.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Wasn't the call made because Marion was concerned about Sally being at Thredbo? The landslide happened at about 11:30 pm on July 30, local time (Wikipedia).

correct and she left a message on the answer phone on the 30th or 31st ( they have used both dates so its confusing) and then called again on the 1st of August and spoke to Sally

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Has there been information from ATO to the effect that Marion has not been taxed or submitted a tax return since her disappearance?

In one of the recent episodes (where Sally talks about the things she wants the coroner to look into) this is mentioned. Police missing persons dont have access to ATO files (under the privacy act). From memory I think they said only AFP have access to ATO files.
So we dont know if Marion submitted a tax return since her disappearance or if she had a tax file number in the Florabella name.

 

[JLZ]

In one of the recent episodes (where Sally talks about the things she wants the coroner to look into) this is mentioned. Police missing persons dont have access to ATO files (under the privacy act). From memory I think they said only AFP have access to ATO files.
So we dont know if Marion submitted a tax return since her disappearance or if she had a tax file number in the Florabella name.

Wow. I haven't been very sympathetic to Sally over this whole thing. But I do think she shouldn't have had to work so hard to get a proper investigation, however little she was able to be told. Because someone changed her name and said she'd be out of contact for a while, it doesn't mean she must be alive twenty-plus years later! They've had dogs searching for a body, and yet they're not allowed to do a simple record check!

 

[Garyb]

Wasn't the call made because Marion was concerned about Sally being at Thredbo? The landslide happened at about 11:30 pm on July 30, local time (Wikipedia).

Also didn't check july had 31 days.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Wow. I haven't been very sympathetic to Sally over this whole thing. But I do think she shouldn't have had to work so hard to get a proper investigation, however little she was able to be told. Because someone changed her name and said she'd be out of contact for a while, it doesn't mean she must be alive twenty-plus years later! They've had dogs searching for a body, and yet they're not allowed to do a simple record check!

I was surprised by this too. It seems odd that passport/flight records/change of name and Medicare are accessible but ATO isnt. It was just a comment Sally made and it wasnt explained or discussed so I'm thinking (and it's just my assumption) that theres probably more to it than that. Perhaps there are avenues through which police can obtain ATO information (I.e. via the AFP) but in this instance Marion's case didnt meet criteria or perhaps police didnt think it was warrented. I dont know just trying to make sense of something that doesnt.

The police file hasnt been dormant it's been reviewed and worked on through the years. This makes me think there must be something that suggests Marion is alive (at least until fairly recently) or youd think the file would be referred to the coroner.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

If the dates and times stated in the timeline are correct ( which they may not be ) see the below -

Marion called on the 1st of August 1997 around 7pm AUS time / 1st of August @ 9am UK Time

Her flight landed in Brisbane at 10am 2nd of August 1997 AUS time.

That gives her 15hrs between the phone call and landing in Brisbane, if she had boarded the plane as soon as she put the phone down.

Minimum flight time from the UK to Brisbane would be a minimum 21hrs allowing for a very quick transfer.

IMO if she was in the UK when she made that call it was either not her on the flight, she was calling from the lay over, the phone call date is incorrect or the incoming flight date is in correct.

happy to have these challenged, math's isn't my strong point

I agree that does not sound like anywhere near enough time to get back to Australia including a stopover. What am still confused about though is that I have heard both July 31st and and August 1st mentioned as dates for the phone call. At first I thought that this was meaning 31st July UK time and August 1st Australia time. But if the phone call occurred on 31st July, Australia evening time and there has been a query over the date, then Marion would definitely have made it back by 2nd August.