Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #14

[mishy66]

Once again I was underwhelmed by the latest podcast episode.

Oh me also. Carrot dangling

 

[BonnieB]

Agree, underwhelming - they focused a bit of the fact Marion ticked Married on the arrival card, do you think they are onto something or not lol ?

Well he was asked directly if he had married Marion. I don't believe it was a legal marriage though. So my answer is yes.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

I agree. I don't think we can honestly believe anything that Marion said tbh.

I agree. I don't believe anything RB says. Or DdH because (whether she's a victim or accomplice) she's clearly under RB's coercive control. Therefore, with that logic, I also can't believe a word RB might've coerced Marion into saying during their entire relationship.

The Puppet Master and Bad Vegan and just two examples of similar behaviour, where victims turned accomplices would say ridiculously untrue things to everyone around them, including their most loved ones, because the conman coerced them to.

I mean... he got her to quit her job, sell her house, get a secret passport in a new name, and fib on official immigration documents. So telling a few more stories in postcards and a phone call is peanuts. I believe MB was knee deep in the con by Aug 1997.

It does not reflect her moral compass or who she was as a mother. It was not her fault. It's his. IMO

 

[Liselle]

Once again I was underwhelmed by the latest podcast episode.

And the RB actor's atrocious accent!

 

[ruby925]

It seems that everything points to MB not needing to be FNR in Aus, hence no need to change her bank account name or documents in Aus. It seems her FNR ID had a purpose overseas only. What was the o/s purpose? Is the million dollar question. IMO.

Maybe, but MB would not have wanted any letters/documents etc in her new name (kept from the family) to be received in Aus while she was away....if it was her intention to eventually reveal all, her new life with husband, in her own time.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Perhaps this might help see things from a different perspective?

Being coerced by a conman is a lot like being in a cult.
So in a way, when people used to think MB was brainwashed by a cult, they weren't completely wrong.
It's the cult of one RB. IMO.
She did not JOIN his cult, she got conned into his cult through a gradual process of conditioning.

Studies prove that educated and intelligent people are statistically more likely to get conned into a cult.
Because they have a tendency to want to belong, improve, be their best selves, and do something meaningful.
And even be selfless for the greater good.

Cults are predatory and rope you in by making you feel wanted, at ease and at home, like you belong.
They make you feel like you're doing something good for other people, society and humanity.
And as though you can finally be the best version of yourself, and do something important that has an impact.
They fill whatever void you might have.

From there, it's a slippery slope that's hard to put into words. But I guess history proves cult leaders can make you do almost anything.

 

[ruby925]

In the cold light of today, it is easy to look at MB's behaviour as being devious and dishonest, co-erced or not. At the time, MB may have felt she was on a big romantic adventure, finding love, a whole new start. She would not have wanted anyone, including family, to put a dampener on that, roll their eyes at her, disapprove or take any of that joy or excitement away IMO. I have friends who have kept relationships secret for months, until they were established and the friends were more confident that things were working out.. I think this is quite common in people with 'life baggage'.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Maybe, but MB would not have wanted any letters/documents etc in her new name (kept from the family) to be received in Aus while she was away....if it was her intention to eventually reveal all, her new life with husband, in her own time.

Yes, Marion might've thought that.
But that wasn't RB's aim, was it?
His aim (IMO) was that he never be revealed to her family. Yet he needed her to get a passport in the FNR name for some reason.
He wasn't actually interested in marrying her and starting a life together in Lux, right?
So for this reason I suspect the events were more dictated by HIM than by her. He had a con to pull off.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Yes, Marion might've thought that.
But that wasn't RB's aim, was it?
His aim (IMO) was that he never be revealed to her family. Yet needed her to get a passport in the FNR name for some reason.
He wasn't actually interested in marrying her and them moving to Lux together, right?

Yup, I'm leaning towards this.

So, his aim, or one of his aims, when advertising in the personal ads in the name of F Remakel, seeking a french speaking woman, was always an end goal of going to Europe, with a 'wife' or rather woman who appears to be his wife as she has the same name. Thereby, impersonating the real Remakels. I wonder. What for? Don't people usually use nick-names in personal ads?

Has the real FNMER and his wife (what do we know about her? what is her name and initials?) been the real target of a 'big win' hit by RB this whole time? Is the real FNR involved in something shady? Or is he exceptionally wealthy? Why did he have the same lamp as Marion's in his window? Might be mass produced but what's the chances?

Maybe, RB had his eye on a much bigger prize - an exceptionally valuable painting in a gallery or suchlike? That he was figuring out how to steal. One worth millions. Then when the 'job' is done he flees the country and the only people being searched for are the real Ramakels?

Also, Marion may have been easily persuaded to take a temporary identity as a wife because she wanted to check in hotels and travel with someone who looked like her husband as opposed to 'affair' / 'lover'.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

I don't know what happened but in the last week it finally clicked for me.
It doesn't matter what Marion said. She was being coerced by a lifelong conman on a mission.
She may or may not have believed what she said. That's beside the point.
He had a specific aim and a job to complete. Which he did not reveal to her.
He was dictating the events. All of them.
He was there on business. He wouldn't allow a slip up because that means getting caught.
The whole thing was highly controlled.
Her words and actions are just what he wanted her to say and do, so he could complete the job without getting caught. IMO

 

[JWSleuth]

MB's little car would have only been worth about $3K-$5K in the 1990's but it was the funds from the sale of SL's own vehicle that was going to be deposited into MB's account. IMO, if SL was to EVENTUALLY TRY TO DEPOSIT this money, she would have discovered there weren’t any accounts active in MB's name anymore. This could have been the FIRST CLUE into the unraveling of RB'S plot, his annoyance that SL hadn't done this quickly and, IMO, the possible discovery of her accounts changed to FDR.

Also I find it so odd if she was worried about money that you would do another return trip to Europe? I’m sure fee would be noted here but was not cheap I would not think.

 

[ruby925]

I don't know what happened but in the last week it finally clicked for me.
It doesn't matter what Marion said. She was being coerced by a lifelong conman on a mission.
She may or may not have believed what she said. That's beside the point.
He had a specific aim and a job to complete. Which he did not reveal to her.
He was dictating the events. All of them.
He was there on business. He wouldn't allow a slip up because that means getting caught.
The whole thing was highly controlled.
Her words and actions are just what he wanted her to say and do, so he could complete the job without getting caught. IMO

I agree RB was pulling all the strings, but I don't see him as some master criminal. IMO he is just a chancer, never worked in his life, small time con man. Early on, he realised by continually changing his name and using aliases, he could stay one step ahead of the authorities and he could lie low in a different part of the world when the heat was on. This pattern has remained with him, at least until he stopped travelling. I don't think the forum rules will allow me to say what I think about RB...
If the end game (as far as MB was concerned) was to steal all her money and disappear, then it worked. Whatever the plan, did it include MB 'disappearing' for ever too? That is a big leap.

 

[BonnieB]

I don't know what happened but in the last week it finally clicked for me.
It doesn't matter what Marion said. She was being coerced by a lifelong conman on a mission.
She may or may not have believed what she said. That's beside the point.
He had a specific aim and a job to complete. Which he did not reveal to her.
He was dictating the events. All of them.
He was there on business. He wouldn't allow a slip up because that means getting caught.
The whole thing was highly controlled.
Her words and actions are just what he wanted her to say and do, so he could complete the job without getting caught. IMO

I think there are quite a few of us with the same opinion. Marion MUST have believed his spiel and agreed to act accordingly otherwise his scam could not have worked. I think I posted a theory on 3rd May along these lines. Yes, he orchestrated the whole event from go to whoa and the more I think about it, Marion's demise had to be factored into the plan. She would have known far too much to let go.
IMO it was pure luck that he evaded suspicion for 20 odd years. He was aware of Marion's family situation; that she had children, parents, friends and siblings. He was aware that she would be missed but he relied on her name change to mask her movements, hoping any search would be concentrated overseas.
It was just luck in his favour that police did not take Sally and her father seriously in October 97; he could not have known that. The deed poll name change WAS on record so was her passport and the dentist who signed off on her ID. A further search on the Remakel surname would have revealed she returned & RB's Qld. drivers licence etc. etc. Small loose ends, but they were there.
My biggest question is...were there others who simply disappeared?

 

[BonnieB]

I agree RB was pulling all the strings, but I don't see him as some master criminal. IMO he is just a chancer, never worked in his life, small time con man. Early on, he realised by continually changing his name and using aliases, he could stay one step ahead of the authorities and he could lie low in a different part of the world when the heat was on. This pattern has remained with him, at least until he stopped travelling. I don't think the forum rules will allow me to say what I think about RB...
If the end game (as far as MB was concerned) was to steal all her money and disappear, then it worked. Whatever the plan, did it include MB 'disappearing' for ever too? That is a big leap.

I agree, it's a big leap but how could it have ended any other way if he hoped to escape detection?

 

[Deleted member 249471]

I agree RB was pulling all the strings, but I don't see him as some master criminal. IMO he is just a chancer, never worked in his life, small time con man. Early on, he realised by continually changing his name and using aliases, he could stay one step ahead of the authorities and he could lie low in a different part of the world when the heat was on. This pattern has remained with him, at least until he stopped travelling. I don't think the forum rules will allow me to say what I think about RB...
If the end game (as far as MB was concerned) was to steal all her money and disappear, then it worked. Whatever the plan, did it include MB 'disappearing' for ever too? That is a big leap.

Was RB a mastermind or just a two-bit hustler?
I genuinely don't have an opinion on that. Hahaha, but you just reminded me of Frank Abagnale Jr from Catch Me if You Can.

We all know the skilled cons he pulled off over many years with the FBI hunting him down. He wrote about it, it got turned into a movie and musical, then he ended up working for the FBI to help stop fraud, right?

Apparently not. That was also a con. Turns out he was a bad small-time fraudster that got caught early on. But as a narcissist, he needed notoriety and for others to see him as a genius. So he lied (shocker) and his biggest con was convincing the world he was much better at it, lol.

It's interesting that conmen don't typically get caught or do a lot of jail time because their whole business plan is about convincing others to hand over their own assets.

Whereas master criminals do blatantly illegal things and avoid getting caught. I honestly don't know the fulcrum point of when to start calling a fraudster a mastermind or master criminal. How many laws they break? How long they get away with it? How many people they fool? How much money they get out of it? How many people they kill? Or how little jail time they do in comparison to how many scams they complete?

The fact RB hasn't been investigated over MB until now (or deported) suggests he was successful at it. I personally don't think he was part of a crime syndicate. But he may have known or been involved with others criminals at times. IMO he definitely broke laws and did unlawful things (immigration lies, tax fraud and multiple IDs). And the fact he did jail time does make him convicted criminal.

What do you consider a master criminal? A mobster? A double agent? Peter Foster? Dr Death? The Twinder Swindler?

 

[ruby925]

Was RB a mastermind or just a two-bit hustler?
I genuinely don't have an opinion on that. Hahaha, but you just reminded me of Frank Abagnale Jr from Catch Me if You Can.

We all know the skilled cons he pulled off over many years with the FBI hunting him down. He wrote about it, it got turned into a movie and musical, then he ended up working for the FBI to help stop fraud, right?

Apparently not. That was also a con. Turns out he was a bad small-time fraudster that got caught early on. But as a narcissist, he needed notoriety and for others to see him as a genius. So he lied (shocker) and his biggest con was convincing the world he was much better at it, lol.

It's interesting that conmen don't typically get caught or do a lot of jail time because their whole business plan is about convincing others to hand over their own assets.

Whereas master criminals do blatantly illegal things and avoid getting caught. I honestly don't know the fulcrum point of when to start calling a fraudster a mastermind or master criminal. How many laws they break? How long they get away with it? How many people they fool? How much money they get out of it? How many people they kill? Or how little jail time they do in comparison to how many scams they complete?

The fact RB hasn't been investigated over MB until now (or deported) suggests he was successful at it. I personally don't think he was part of a crime syndicate. But he may have known or been involved with others criminals at times. IMO he definitely broke laws and did unlawful things (immigration lies, tax fraud and multiple IDs). And the fact he did jail time does make him convicted criminal.

What do you consider a master criminal? A mobster? A double agent? Peter Foster? Dr Death? The Twinder Swindler?

On a very simplistic level, if more women come forward and it turns out he has scammed that kind of money at least once a year, I might upgrade him. Yes, successful criminal in that he has never had a job and the aliases have kept him from being caught, but he has also escaped the net through the incompetence of others.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

In the cold light of today, it is easy to look at MB's behaviour as being devious and dishonest, co-erced or not. At the time, MB may have felt she was on a big romantic adventure, finding love, a whole new start. She would not have wanted anyone, including family, to put a dampener on that, roll their eyes at her, disapprove or take any of that joy or excitement away IMO

I think this is the core of why she kept what she was doing secret.

 

[KinseyFan]

I agree. I don't believe anything RB says. Or DdH because (whether she's a victim or accomplice) she's clearly under RB's coercive control. Therefore, with that logic, I also can't believe a word RB might've coerced Marion into saying during their entire relationship.

The Puppet Master and Bad Vegan and just two examples of similar behaviour, where victims turned accomplices would say ridiculously untrue things to everyone around them, including their most loved ones, because the conman coerced them to.

I mean... he got her to quit her job, sell her house, get a secret passport in a new name, and fib on official immigration documents. So telling a few more stories in postcards and a phone call is peanuts. I believe MB was knee deep in the con by Aug 1997.

It does not reflect her moral compass or who she was as a mother. It was not her fault. It's his. IMO

Absolutely agree. Falling prey to this criminal, predatory behaviour in no way reflects badly on MB. He seems to be a career criminal. Has had decades to hone his “craft”. Hardly a mastermind though- today’s technology and groundswell of support could be his undoing

 

[KinseyFan]

Was RB a mastermind or just a two-bit hustler?
I genuinely don't have an opinion on that. Hahaha, but you just reminded me of Frank Abagnale Jr from Catch Me if You Can.

We all know the skilled cons he pulled off over many years with the FBI hunting him down. He wrote about it, it got turned into a movie and musical, then he ended up working for the FBI to help stop fraud, right?

Apparently not. That was also a con. Turns out he was a bad small-time fraudster that got caught early on. But as a narcissist, he needed notoriety and for others to see him as a genius. So he lied (shocker) and his biggest con was convincing the world he was much better at it, lol.

It's interesting that conmen don't typically get caught or do a lot of jail time because their whole business plan is about convincing others to hand over their own assets.

Whereas master criminals do blatantly illegal things and avoid getting caught. I honestly don't know the fulcrum point of when to start calling a fraudster a mastermind or master criminal. How many laws they break? How long they get away with it? How many people they fool? How much money they get out of it? How many people they kill? Or how little jail time they do in comparison to how many scams they complete?

The fact RB hasn't been investigated over MB until now (or deported) suggests he was successful at it. I personally don't think he was part of a crime syndicate. But he may have known or been involved with others criminals at times. IMO he definitely broke laws and did unlawful things (immigration lies, tax fraud and multiple IDs). And the fact he did jail time does make him convicted criminal.

What do you consider a master criminal? A mobster? A double agent? Peter Foster? Dr Death? The Twinder Swindler?

Maybe ‘career criminal’ fits better. Sounds like a living was made illegally rather than honestly. Appears to have included theft by deception and resale.

 

[BonnieB]

Was RB a mastermind or just a two-bit hustler?
I genuinely don't have an opinion on that. Hahaha, but you just reminded me of Frank Abagnale Jr from Catch Me if You Can.

We all know the skilled cons he pulled off over many years with the FBI hunting him down. He wrote about it, it got turned into a movie and musical, then he ended up working for the FBI to help stop fraud, right?

Apparently not. That was also a con. Turns out he was a bad small-time fraudster that got caught early on. But as a narcissist, he needed notoriety and for others to see him as a genius. So he lied (shocker) and his biggest con was convincing the world he was much better at it, lol.

It's interesting that conmen don't typically get caught or do a lot of jail time because their whole business plan is about convincing others to hand over their own assets.

Whereas master criminals do blatantly illegal things and avoid getting caught. I honestly don't know the fulcrum point of when to start calling a fraudster a mastermind or master criminal. How many laws they break? How long they get away with it? How many people they fool? How much money they get out of it? How many people they kill? Or how little jail time they do in comparison to how many scams they complete?

The fact RB hasn't been investigated over MB until now (or deported) suggests he was successful at it. I personally don't think he was part of a crime syndicate. But he may have known or been involved with others criminals at times. IMO he definitely broke laws and did unlawful things (immigration lies, tax fraud and multiple IDs). And the fact he did jail time does make him convicted criminal.

What do you consider a master criminal? A mobster? A double agent? Peter Foster? Dr Death? The Twinder Swindler?

He began his career as a petty thief in his early teens and he's probably not done an honest days work since his twenties; always on the lookout for victims, scams and easy money. I have no doubt he has many contacts in the underworld of undesirables but he's no 'mastermind'.

His wife and children are just another of his scams, a 'respectable' base for his illegal activities; he dragged his family along the entire East coast of Australia dodging the authorities and irate victims. He cared not one jot about their well being or the shame he brought on his children during the inquest.

He's a sociopathic liar and totally lacking in any moral compass. He has a hugely inflated ego and absolutely everything is about him; his comfort, his desires, his pleasures, his safety and his freedom.

I don't know how you categorize someone like him...
IMO, He's a career criminal of the lowest human order.