Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #9

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vivienbee said:
A few thoughts (feel free to comment/dispute):

Did Marion actually ship her belongings to his address?
  • As @Peralta states, she may have just put her things in a removal van and not known where it was going.
  • As @buyerninety suggests, it's also possible that she did know where it was going, and if she knew his actual home address then maybe that's what made the difference in her case - something that could concretely identify him.
  • If this was the case, I also find it hard to imagine that DdH had no idea what was going on. A bunch of furniture and items appear at your house and you just have no clue about their origins and don't care to ask any questions? Admittedly, it's possible that there were frequently items coming and going to the property that had unknown origins.
  • Did the storage container with Marion's other belongings in actually exist? And was this sent to a location overseas?
Did RB have access to another property that could have been used to ship the items to (and stay in afterwards, if Marion did meet back up with him willingly upon her return)? Is this where they met the night Marion was unaccounted for (and possibly more nights)?
  • Is this something to do with why he moved his family to Wollongbar? Or WHAT is that whole thing about?
Re: all of the Amsterdam/Netherlands comments, I don't think it's insignificant that in one of her postcards Marion talks about renting a car to drive to Amsterdam. Whether this happened or not is another matter, but it seems like that was part of the plan?

Did RB plan to take her on the Orient Express and hope to pull a Christie-level situation using multiple disguises and aliases that all had a hand in it? ;)
Click to expand...

The storage container!! - Did RB say in questioning that he imported a storage container at some stage or am I imagining it?!
 
Lord Peter Flimsy said:
I know it’s been touched upon numerous times but IMHO Marion never saw the ad in Le Courrier Australien in Dec 1994. We know this is a French speaking monthly publication. Marion’s French was limited. This ad was aimed at French speaking ladies.

I feel Marion was being totally honest when informing Sally she met this guy at the Arts Centre perhaps when he was at a coin fair or he was stalking middle aged single women that would frequent such places.

I believe the initial meeting took place at the back end of 1996. They of course had never met before.
Click to expand...
I'm inclined to think end of '96 too. The Switzerland story was not established as a version of truth in my opinion. If Marion kept all her old passports, as many people do, RB could have seen her travel status from those, I'm sure he could have weaved that into a conversation to look at them if she kept them, having an interest in such things! Also they could have had discussions about their travels, "Oh I was in Switzerland too in the 60s", "oh, where did you stay, we may have crossed paths", etc. It would be interesting to know if Marion's old passports were in the storage container too, along with other personal papers.
 
MrsEmmaPeel said:
I like it. It matches the JO scenario. It explains all the details. The only misfit piece imo: Marion's boarding card saying that her home is Luxembourg and she only intends to stay in Australia 8 days. This seems unlikely if she'd copped to Blum. I can't imagine her thinking she could return, then pick up where she left off in Europe.
Click to expand...
Completely agree! I tried so hard, but couldn't make that return passenger card fit :confused: I know something is missing. I just can't figure out what it is.

The biggest difference between 'Marion's possible timeline' and JO's actual timeline is that Marion changed her name and kept her 'alternate persona' going while departing and returning to Aus.

This leads me to believe, either
  • he made her come back with him on purpose, which is different from JO's story (for example, 'he couldn't withdraw her UK money, so he dragged her back to Aus')
  • she was leaving breadcrumbs
  • she didn't write either of the passenger cards, or at least, it wasn't her that returned.
So basically, we're back to the same issues as always.
 
*I agree it wouldve been easy for him to go back and forth, but I don't believe it wouldve been as easy for M on her Aussie Passport.*

I agree.

However, given RB's penchant for fakery and fraud, he may well have obtained a Belgian/Lux identity card in the name of Florabella Ramekel. Job done. Off and on ferries, no checks, nobody looking twice at a middle aged Belgian and his wife.
 
Random observation -

RB will not defame MC, she is the only women with a complaint against him that is not "delusional or with a wild imagination" even though he wont admit to her statement as been correct.

As he stated MC knows everyone whos anyone in Luxembourg, in his twisted head, he doesn't want to defame her at risk of her ruining his reputation with these people, pretty sure it doesn't matter to them, I assume any connections are long gone as he looks to have stop travelling 10 years ago ( maybe due to health and mobility), but he doesn't want to go to his death bed with his reputation in tatters, this seems to matter greatly to him as to what they "think" of him.

Also it seems anyone who cant speak more than 1 language lacks intellect according to him
 
@Estelle

I'm using your timeline here for reference (thanks to everyone who puts these timelines together!!) Because I'm still trying to get my head around RB & DdeH, when they were married & where (I can't remember if there are records for these events - I thought I did see someone post them) Their relationship timeline is so off to me! Could he of been married at the same time to two different women, under different names?

This is the timeline:

1970-02-15 Ilona left Australia on UT2506 from Sydney to Belgium?

1970-02-15 Willy Wouters departed Australia without a re-entry visa on UT2506 to Belgium, status Divorced (2)

More convictions in Belgium and France, for fraud, attempted fraud, breach of trust, impersonation. Various short prison sentences in France, the longest 4 years, most to be served concurrently.

1970 Ilona married in Budapest Hungary to MJR (Reid?)

1971 Ilona first child born (daughter ER)

1971-6-23 WW.Arrested Rouen, Discharged 21/5/1974

1971-12-09 Willy Wouters Rouen France, sentenced to 4 years prison for fraud, forgery, confidence tricks, giving false identity

1972-01-11 WW sentenced to one month for unsecured cheques in absentia in France.

1972-11-16 Willy Wouters Lille France, 1 years prison (concurrent with previous sentence)

1973-01-23 Willy Waitress Fraud 1 years prison (concurrent with previous sentences)

1973 Ilona second child born (son CR)

1974-01 Willy Wouters App Dousai "checks without cover" 1 years prison

1974-05-21 Willy Wouters discharged from prison. He may have then joined Ilona in Hungary but where he was is unaccounted for.

1976?? Willy Wouters must have returned to Australia but no records can be found say immigration dept. Did he actually return with or before Ilona in 1976 as M J Reid? Did they just separate or divorce or were never really married?


CONTINUED >>>

1977 We know they (he & DdeH) are listed in census docs living in 1/303 Old South West Road, Bondi and he has listed himself as an artist and D as a secretary. (Note D name is spelt here with 1 'N')

and then in

1980 Are listed in living in Military Road, he's listed as a photographer and DdeH is listed as hd = (is this the abbreviation for hand?)

My question and mind keep circling around: How & when did he meet DdeH?! How does she fit in?

I think he really also could be MJ Reid.
 
ruby925 said:
MOO, so the 80k withdrawal from the other bank would have been reported to Austrac and therefore there is still a record of the transaction?
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, no. BOTH banks should have reported the withdrawals because BOTH were unusual and suspicious behaviour. But neither did. So, it's seems possible that RB had help from the inside in return for part of the money. Here's my post from yesterday, explaining just that:

Peralta said:
Sorry for the long post... clarifying info about withdrawals and Owen's death.

During the inquest last year, it was revealed Marion's account had a restriction of only being able to withdraw a max of $5k per day.

Although the $5k withdrawn daily over 3.5 week is super suspicious, it is just as perplexing how she managed to withdraw $80k in one go. Normally, they only let you do that when you're buying a house. Otherwise, it gets flagged to be investigated for possible fraud and money laundering.

It appears none of the banks followed normal procedure as the amounts taken from Marion's account weren't normal behaviour (even if it was Marion taking out the money herself) and bank tellers are specifically trained to look for this kind of thing in order to prevent fraud.

We know there were many bank staff who have since done jail time for defrauding customers. Including people that worked at the banks were Marion's money was withdrawn. Their crimes are real but none of their crimes have yet been linked to Marion. It's possible RB had help from the inside in return for part of the money. We've talked about this extensively so you're welcome to use the search bar and google.

However, I'll repost notes from the inquest last year:
Graeme Smith, Commonwealth Bank (CBA) investigator
  • Staff are trained to watch for customers withdrawing large amounts in small periods of time.
  • Especially if it's not the customer’s normal branch (correct, it wasn't Marion's normal branch).
  • Particularly if they went to the same teller (meaning the teller is dodgy), then it would trigger the process of a Suspicious Transaction Report (STR).
  • An STR is made if $5k was withdrawn every day for just 3 days, let alone 3.5 weeks. Yet no STR was made.
  • However, it wouldn’t be so noticable if the person visited multiple branches (as far as we know, they didn't, most of it was at Byron which wasn't Marion's branch).
  • Withdrawing a large amount on one day, such as $80,000, is a huge red flag to the bank.
  • The only time a large withdrawal won't cause alarm, is when the purpose was to buy a house.
  • You could only withdraw up to $800 per day at an ATM or EFTPOS.
  • Police never contacted the CBA investigator and records are long gone.
  • Thinks it's very suspicious Marion vanished yet left $14,000 in her UK Barclays account. Hasn't seen that before.
David Martin, bank manager of Colonial in 1997
  • Withdrawing amounts over $10k was suspicious and would be reported to AUSTRAC (yet ti wasn't as there is no record of it)
  • Confirms that on 2 June 1997, after house was sold, her mortgage on the house was discharged, and Marion opened a high performing interest earning account.
  • The account had a restriction of only being allowed to withdraw $5k a day.
  • He does NOT recall police or Salvos ever getting in contact with him.
  • And they did NOT have a securities officer at Ashmore, ever.
Click to expand...
 
poppypopcorn said:
*I agree it wouldve been easy for him to go back and forth, but I don't believe it wouldve been as easy for M on her Aussie Passport.*

I agree.

However, given RB's penchant for fakery and fraud, he may well have obtained a Belgian/Lux identity card in the name of Florabella Ramekel. Job done. Off and on ferries, no checks, nobody looking twice at a middle aged Belgian and his wife.
Click to expand...


Yep, 100% true! Hence why he needed her to have her name changed before she left Aus?
 
Episode 24 of The Inquest Part 5 now seems very interesting in light of the new developments. This was Bronwen referring back to May 1997 I believe, at 8.09 - "She remembered Marion being very upset about resigning from TSS." "When we were up at dad's birthday we went for a walk on the beach and she was terribly, terribly upset. She told me she'd been betrayed at that school. She didn't tell me any details. I did ask her but she wouldn't tell me. She just was terribly upset. She was crying. And it left her with no option but to tender her resignation." There was never any evidence from the school indicating any betrayal or incident ... food for thought!
 
Itsapuzzle said:
Episode 24 of The Inquest Part 5 now seems very interesting in light of the new developments. This was Bronwen referring back to May 1997 I believe, at 8.09 - "She remembered Marion being very upset about resigning from TSS." "When we were up at dad's birthday we went for a walk on the beach and she was terribly, terribly upset. She told me she'd been betrayed at that school. She didn't tell me any details. I did ask her but she wouldn't tell me. She just was terribly upset. She was crying. And it left her with no option but to tender her resignation." There was never any evidence from the school indicating any betrayal or incident ... food for thought!
Click to expand...

Ahhh, yes I remember this now that you have popped it here. Loads of food for thought!
 
Peralta said:
Marion's possible timeline
Applying JOs experience to Marion...

Marion ships her belongings to RB's house as he offered to store her things until they return from their trip.
When she returns to Aus, she intends to buy a much smaller apartment by the water (she told Sally this once).

Once in the UK, RB tells Marion to place unneeded bags in Heathrow storage.
He tells her to leave all her Aus paperwork in there so it won't get stolen.
It includes her birth certificate, medicare, drivers licence, Aus bankcard and jewellery.
She only keeps her passport and Barclays card.

They hire a car and make stops as per postcards.
As usual, RB doesn't do much touristy stuff and sights seeing.
So Marion is bored and confused, but has plenty of time to wander around on her own and write postcards.
RB tells her they can't go on the Orient Express because he has business to do.

He checks her into an accommodation and leaves her alone for a few days.
He then calls Marion and claims he was robbed and is recovering in hospital for a few weeks.
In reality, he's back at Heathrow, taking Marion's bag full of clothes and documents.
He returns to Aus with the intention of leaving Marion stranded in the UK.
It's OK, she as $20k to get by on and she'll never find him upon her return because he isn't really FR.

His plan is, if Marion ever calls police, they'll confuse FR/Aus for FR/Lux (hence Lux lies on passenger cards)
It's great because he hates FR/Lux because he was MCs husband and RB is still infatuated with MC.
It's spiteful payback, essentially.

Marion, still in the UK, is suddenly very suspicious after RB's last phone call.
She suspect's he went back to Aus without her and that he might be trying to fleece her.

She calls Sally, and tells her she'll be busy for a while and to not expect contact.
She doesn't tell Sally the truth because she feels ashamed by how much this man tricked her.
She's also not 100% convinced? She wants to see him face-to-face. She wants to take care of it herself.
Marion buys herself a plane ticket and returns to Aus.

Back in Aus, RB starts withdrawing Marion's cash with the intention of disappearing.
He chose Byron because he knows a teller who accepts bribes.
Occasionally this teller works at Burleigh Heads and Ashmore.
RB and wife buy a car to make all the trips to the bank in a car no-one recognises as theirs.

Marion finds RB, she wants to call the police but there's a confrontation.
They use the car to make to make Marion disappear.
They have to sell the car now.
Click to expand...

I suppose that car has been scrapped long ago. Marion never having her dream Orient Express train trip is heartbreaking.
 
Lord Peter Flimsy said:
I know it’s been touched upon numerous times but IMHO Marion never saw the ad in Le Courrier Australien in Dec 1994. We know this is a French speaking monthly publication. Marion’s French was limited. This ad was aimed at French speaking ladies.

I feel Marion was being totally honest when informing Sally she met this guy at the Arts Centre perhaps when he was at a coin fair or he was stalking middle aged single women that would frequent such places.

I believe the initial meeting took place at the back end of 1996. They of course had never met before.
Click to expand...

@Lord Peter Flimsy when I was young the New York Review of Books was known for its personal ads. Many people bought the publication, which was very academic and brainy, only to get the personals-- which were anything but. Was the Remakel ad in French or English? If English, it seems plausible to me that romantic Marion might have been drawn to a personal ad in a AUSeuropean publication -- unless the ad were in French.
 
MrsEmmaPeel said:
@Peralta - so the Colonial State Bank $80,000 was the last withdrawal? If this were MB's actual branch, wouldn't it be hugely risky for Blum and masquerader to withdrawn in person from there?So it Or was this done electronically? Owen's missed birthday was 3 days later. . .
Click to expand...
Absolutely! Not only that, but in those days, taking $10k in one go would warrant it being reported to AUSTRAC and investigated for possible fraud and money laundering. The only time you could take out such an amount is if you were buying a house. As far as we know, that didn't happen as there's no record of where her money went. She would have had to withdraw cash and pay for the house in actual dollar bills!

The only thing that makes sense (to me) is that there was a teller in Byron who was dodgy and open to bribes. We know there were some dodgy tellers at the banks and branches Marion used, as a few went to jail many years later for defrauding customers (unrelated to Marion).

From last year's inquest, the banks also made it clear that a lot of the tellers took shifts at other locations. At the time, Colonial branches was starting to shift over to becoming CBA branches, so it was normal for staff to move around. My belief is that RB found a dodgy teller who agreed to do it for a slice of the money. The teller also took shifts in Burleigh Heads and Ashmore, so RB went there too, so it didn't look like all the money was coming out at only on Byron. It was a necessary strategy to hide and confuse what was actually happening.

No, there's no evidence of an electronic shift of the money. That would leave a trail, and there is no trail of where that money went. There's only a record of RB purchasing a security envelope on 14 Oct 1997 in Ballina through CBA bank. And some kind of electronic transfer of money also on the 14th that we have no details about (podcast revealed they found a document in the brief of evidence). It is speculated that RB withdrew her cash then THEN electronically transferred 'his' money to his envelope. Something like that.
 
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Itsapuzzle said:
Episode 24 of The Inquest Part 5 now seems very interesting in light of the new developments. This was Bronwen referring back to May 1997 I believe, at 8.09 - "She remembered Marion being very upset about resigning from TSS." "When we were up at dad's birthday we went for a walk on the beach and she was terribly, terribly upset. She told me she'd been betrayed at that school. She didn't tell me any details. I did ask her but she wouldn't tell me. She just was terribly upset. She was crying. And it left her with no option but to tender her resignation." There was never any evidence from the school indicating any betrayal or incident ... food for thought!
Click to expand...

Aligns with what Sally said as well, one night her mother cried her self to sleep as they sat on the sofa, This is where the claims of "boys" came up, I haven't heard anyone else say that Marion said that to them other than Sally, but she was very upset about the school situation. You would think the school would have mentioned this ( I am not saying Sally lied at all, 100% believe her, but its odd the school themselves have not said this)
 
Pineconemind said:
@Estelle

I'm using your timeline here for reference (thanks to everyone who puts these timelines together!!) Because I'm still trying to get my head around RB & DdeH, when they were married & where (I can't remember if there are records for these events - I thought I did see someone post them) Their relationship timeline is so off to me! Could he of been married at the same time to two different women, under different names?

This is the timeline:

1970-02-15 Ilona left Australia on UT2506 from Sydney to Belgium?

1970-02-15 Willy Wouters departed Australia without a re-entry visa on UT2506 to Belgium, status Divorced (2)

More convictions in Belgium and France, for fraud, attempted fraud, breach of trust, impersonation. Various short prison sentences in France, the longest 4 years, most to be served concurrently.

1970 Ilona married in Budapest Hungary to MJR (Reid?)

1971 Ilona first child born (daughter ER)

1971-6-23 WW.Arrested Rouen, Discharged 21/5/1974

1971-12-09 Willy Wouters Rouen France, sentenced to 4 years prison for fraud, forgery, confidence tricks, giving false identity

1972-01-11 WW sentenced to one month for unsecured cheques in absentia in France.

1972-11-16 Willy Wouters Lille France, 1 years prison (concurrent with previous sentence)

1973-01-23 Willy Waitress Fraud 1 years prison (concurrent with previous sentences)

1973 Ilona second child born (son CR)

1974-01 Willy Wouters App Dousai "checks without cover" 1 years prison

1974-05-21 Willy Wouters discharged from prison. He may have then joined Ilona in Hungary but where he was is unaccounted for.

1976?? Willy Wouters must have returned to Australia but no records can be found say immigration dept. Did he actually return with or before Ilona in 1976 as M J Reid? Did they just separate or divorce or were never really married?


CONTINUED >>>

1977 We know they (he & DdeH) are listed in census docs living in 1/303 Old South West Road, Bondi and he has listed himself as an artist and D as a secretary. (Note D name is spelt here with 1 'N')

and then in

1980 Are listed in living in Military Road, he's listed as a photographer and DdeH is listed as hd = (is this the abbreviation for hand?)

My question and mind keep circling around: How & when did he meet DdeH?! How does she fit in?

I think he really also could be MJ Reid.
Click to expand...

My notes from the inquest, there is a name change from WW to FDH on 12Feb1976, 8 days before marriage to DDH on 20Feb1976.
 
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