GUILTY Australia - Robert, 66, & Cheryl Adamson, 60, murdered, Murrumbeena, Vic, 19 Feb 2014

[MsAnais]

I agree, Isis. Just like those thousands of kids who were diagnosed as ADD/ADHD. Some of them just needed firmer parenting guidelines, some were consistently pushing the boundaries, some were very active kids, some were too sugared/additived up imo.

Sometimes I wonder (and NO slight whatsoever intended to you here :loveyou: ) if we are just keeping a myriad of psychologists and doctors and pharmaceutical companies in business, instead of getting the sugar and additives removed from our food. :thinking:

No slight taken! I 100% agree! Food - specifically preservatives plus sugar - plays a huge role in the wellness of children.

Also, I am an unusual psychologist in that I am pro-depth therapy to really explore the core issues rather than 6 - 12 sessions and you're done, which is the prevalent model here in Aus. I struggle with the whole concept of a psychiatrist giving a diagnosis and then the person going on medication but doing no deeper therapeutic work to accompany it.

And I completely agree with the whole collusion between drug companies and the health care industry. And sadly, it has indeed become an industry :facepalm:

PS. you totally summed up the underlying issues of every child I worked with who supposedly had ADHD/ADD. The root cause could always be traced, quite easily.

 

[~Katie~]

There's an article on news.com.au that mentions Hemming and discusses 'thrill killers':

http://www.news.com.au/national/thr...iting-to-explode/story-fncynjr2-1227095186007

Some of the things mentioned:

Experts say thrill killers are not always loners and obviously excluded from society; they can even appear to be successful.
But they have a sadistic urge to kill.

Jack Levin, a criminologist from the US Northeastern University, has written extensively about thrill kills. He believes they are driven by feelings of failure and of not being in control. While many openly talk about wanting to kill, others give no warning at all.

Mr Levin says most thrill killers are young males, but it’s difficult to neatly categorise them. Most importantly, they all feel inadequate in some way and their crimes are driven by a need to feel powerful.

..........................

:facepalm: BIG warning sign:

Hemming had tragically told his mother months earlier how he was preoccupied with killing someone and she had organised for him to see a psychologist but he cancelled the appointment.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/t...ourt-hears-20141013-1159e9.html#ixzz3Fzd7TQRj

bbm. Why on earth, if someone tells you that, do you just allow them to cancel the appointment and carry on?

She could have contacted mental health - they could have assessed him to determine if he was a danger to others. And if he was, they would section him and he could have received the help he needed.

It's not his mother's fault, of course, but if your child tells you that and then doesn't go to the psych, surely you'd stay with it and do anything you needed to get them the help they require?

That boggles my mind.

It's interesting that Levin (in the article above) says many thrill killers talk about wanting to kill, as Hemming and Giles (also mentioned in the article) did.

Do you think that maybe people think the person telling them isn't really serious and/or they believe they need psych treatment, but that it isn't that urgent as they've never shown signs of violence before? Or that it's such an unusual thing for someone to confide to them that they are unsure what to do?

Also if someone confided that to a police officer or medical professional, would they be sent for treatment immediately (sectioned if necessary)?

 

[MsAnais]

Thanks for that article, Katie :seeya:. That's really interesting.

If a client presents saying that they have fantasies of killing people, most mental health professionals would indeed take it seriously. As a psych you would be trying to assess whether the person has an actual plan, how well thought out their fantasy was (eg. was it realistic?), had they taken any steps towards actualising it (eg.Tom had ordered a knife off the internet), how long they'd had the fantasy and how often they thought about it.

Obviously, the issue here is that it is all self-report and the client can minimise or deny their true thoughts.

But I've been surprised how often people will disclose the very full-on things that they are thinking about. They are often relieved to have an outlet to discuss it as most of them know that it isn't 'healthy' and are often worried about themselves. These are the people who know right from wrong, who aren't psychotic. Which sounds like Tom. He knew right from wrong, as the judge said, as we can see by him hiding the evidence afterward (albeit sloppily).

And it sounds like he may well have disclosed his fantasies to a psych. He obviously told his mother about it, which suggests to me that part of him wanted it to come to light and to receive help.

A person can be sectioned if they pose the threat of harm to themselves or others, so if it was deemed that Tom was in danger of harming someone else he would indeed have been detained and sent to a mental health unit for assessment and treatment.

I SO wish that had happened. I wish he'd kept the psych appointment, trusted the psych enough to tell the truth about his fantasies and received the help he so obviously needed.

The issue for lay people, such as family members, is that they may indeed not understand the gravity of someone saying they are fantasising about killing another person. And if that person is your son (who you want to think the best of) and IF they have no history of violence (which we don't know in Tom's case) then I can understand why his parents wouldn't have realised he would suddenly erupt like this.

But I still wonder about early warning signs. Was there any arson? Bed wetting? Cruelty to other children who are younger? (we've been told he never hurt animals). If two or more of these factors are present in a person's childhood, it is typically indicative of serious psychological disturbance. (They are sometimes termed the 'Serial Killer Triad' due to the prevalence of these factors in the childhoods of serial killers). But again, if you don't know this they can be easily written off as childish experimentation.

Such a tricky thing, unfortunately:facepalm:

 

[MsAnais]

I just want to add that it sounds like alcohol had a part to play in Tom losing his inhibitions enough to enact his fantasy. Being drunk allowed him to take that next step........

In the light of day, if he were sober, he may not have crossed over from fantasy to reality.

And here is another issue - the acceptance in our culture of young guys getting completely wasted on alcohol. Due to the acceptance of it, people don't stop to ask themselves "Why is he getting SOOO drunk, so regularly?" "What precisely is he self-medicating here, with this behaviour? What pain is he trying to avoid?"

Something's got to change. But I doubt that will happen very readily. It's all so socially accepted and culturally embedded that young guys in Australia will get drunk and people just turn a blind eye.

But in reality, to be regularly drinking to the point of passing out or throwing up, is indicative of an inner unhappiness.

And that's my two cents!!!:moo:

 

[ozman]

So, just off the top of my head, Aspergers + Gaming = Eliott Rodger, Daniel Jack Kelsall, Thomas Hemming........
I'm sure there's many more. That's me thinking of recent WS cases for about 1 second!
It seems to be a very dangerous combination imo. Maybe it blurs the lines of reality too much for someone on the spectrum?

I disagree with this opinion. For one, those with Aspergers are more likely to play video games for extended time, so it becomes a numbers situation. If there was an issue with people with Aspergers playing video games, a larger percentage of people with Aspergers would have blurred lines between reality and imaginary. Secondly, most (popular) video games are not set in any sort of real-world environment, so telling the difference between imaginary and reality should never come up. GTA gets a bad rap here because those games are set in a semi-realistic city environment, but the characters in those games are far from realistic. Which brings me to my third point: if any form of media could be considered an "issue", movies would be the culprit more than video games. Movies (these days) are usually set in more realistic environments than video games, they usually star more believable characters, they usually use actual real people (instead of just graphic depiction in video games), and they are usually far more violent than video games.
I will give you that there are a few actually legitimate situations when people have done something and have admitted that they had trouble discerning the difference between a video game and reality, but those people have far more serious health problems than just Aspergers.

 

[truthseeker2011]

So what do you need to do to get a life sentence in Melbourne? Any Victorian lawyers out there? 59 is plenty young enough to re-offend.

Also - did the judge say that Michael was the one to find them, as I've read in a few articles? That is definitely not the case to my knowledge. A bit of accurate reporting wouldn't go astray. http://www.skynews.com.au/news/top-stories/2014/10/24/vic-thrill-killer-jailed-for-33-years.html

32 years doesn't feel like justice to me. Sorry if that offends, ozman, I don't mean to add to your pain. But 16 years each?

 

[MsAnais]

Justice Betty King described the murders as "horrific" and said Hemming's lack of remorse made him an "exceedingly poor prospect of rehabilitation."

"You remain incapable of feeling any empathy, sorrow or regret for your fellow human beings," she said in the Victorian Supreme Court on Friday.

Justice King said Hemming, who had been having homicidal thoughts and fantasies about murder for months before he carried them out, had shattered the belief of sanctity in the home for many people.

http://www.9news.com.au/national/20...iller-jailed-for-33-years#vMCQLBPw8KQWROFm.99

 

[MsAnais]

So what do you need to do to get a life sentence in Melbourne? Any Victorian lawyers out there? 59 is plenty young enough to re-offend.

Also - did the judge say that Michael was the one to find them, as I've read in a few articles? That is definitely not the case to my knowledge. A bit of accurate reporting wouldn't go astray. http://www.skynews.com.au/news/top-stories/2014/10/24/vic-thrill-killer-jailed-for-33-years.html

32 years doesn't feel like justice to me. Sorry if that offends, ozman, I don't mean to add to your pain. But 16 years each?

You're absolutely right, Truthseeker - 59 is indeed plenty young enough to re-offend, especially with a guy like this who the judge herself says has very poor prospects for rehabilitation. :facepalm:

 

[MsAnais]

And yes apparently the judge herself said that Michael, their son, found them (bbm). The poor, poor man. That is simply beyond imagining :facepalm:



Justice King said the Adamson's children, a son and daughter, had experienced anger, grief, bewilderment and frustration that their parents had been killed in their own home.

"Above all they feel loss," she said.

"It was unfortunate that their son was the person who found the bodies and undoubtedly that will be difficult to ever erase."

http://www.9news.com.au/national/20...iller-jailed-for-33-years#vMCQLBPw8KQWROFm.99

 

[truthseeker2011]

Pretty sure it wasn't the son. It was two of her work colleagues from the school. That was reported earlier (and I'm very confident it's true). Bit strange to be changing the story at this point - and even stranger if the judge is wrong?

Hope there's some analysis of the sentence. I'm at a loss to understand it.

 

[MsAnais]

I was wondering how long before he told his mother about the fantasies - about 4 months prior according to this article:

In the October before the murders, Hemming told his mother he was having violent fantasies, but refused to keep an appointment to see a psychologist.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/la...rrumbeena-couple/story-fni0fee2-1227101296724

Again - I SOOOOO wish some intervention had happened at that point. What a tragedy this is.

 

[MsAnais]

Pretty sure it wasn't the son. It was two of her work colleagues from the school. That was reported earlier (and I'm very confident it's true). Bit strange to be changing the story at this point - and even stranger if the judge is wrong?

Hope there's some analysis of the sentence. I'm at a loss to understand it.

Well that's weird isn't it??!! I have no idea what to make of that - as I know that you know who was contacted to go and check on them. So I'd think you'd be correct.

Plus, the son's presence was never mentioned prior to today. But how could the judge herself get the wrong info? 'Tis odd.

 

[MsAnais]

Psychiatrist Dr Daniel Sullivan did not believe Hemming was a psychopath or sociopath but that he had a lack of empathy and the risk of him re-offending was "unknowable".

The judge said Hemming's Asperger's, which was not normally a syndrome that caused people to be violent, did not reduce his moral culpability.

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/m...r-32-years-20141024-11bbmw.html#ixzz3H2kwVMsF

 

[SouthAussie]

Well that's weird isn't it??!! I have no idea what to make of that - as I know that you know who was contacted to go and check on them. So I'd think you'd be correct.

Plus, the son's presence was never mentioned prior to today. But how could the judge herself get the wrong info? 'Tis odd.

Did the people that discovered Robert and Cheryl call the son and he came right over? Or did the police call him and he came right over? Perhaps he saw his parents in situ, before they were taken to the Coroner, and that is what the judge meant?

 

[MsAnais]

Did the people that discovered Robert and Cheryl call the son and he came right over? Or did the police call him and he came right over? Perhaps he saw his parents in situ, before they were taken to the Coroner, and that is what the judge meant?

Good thinking, SouthAussie :seeya:

 

[SouthAussie]

"But there is nothing to indicate that you would not do it again, as you lack an emotional connectedness with people in general."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-24/thomas-hemming-sentenced-over-melbourne-double-murder/5839568


Unfortunately, I think that 32 years (min 27 years) is thought to be a very long 'life' sentence by our judiciary ..... considering that many life sentences are around 20-25 years. :facepalm:

Perhaps we should start calling the sentence a big-chunk-of-your-life sentence, instead of life sentence - for accuracy.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/la...o-life-in-prison/story-fni0ffnk-1226834104831

 

[truthseeker2011]

"But there is nothing to indicate that you would not do it again, as you lack an emotional connectedness with people in general."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-24/thomas-hemming-sentenced-over-melbourne-double-murder/5839568


Unfortunately, I think that 32 years (min 27 years) is thought to be a very long 'life' sentence by our judiciary ..... considering that many life sentences are around 20-25 years. :facepalm:

Perhaps we should start calling the sentence a big-chunk-of-your-life sentence, instead of life sentence - for accuracy.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/la...o-life-in-prison/story-fni0ffnk-1226834104831

I googled maximum sentences in Victoria, and life is the maximum sentence for murder. I really want to understand how it wasn't that. Pre-mediated, unprovoked, brutal, and no remorse. Even his own lawyer said there had been no remorse.

 

[truthseeker2011]

Good thinking, SouthAussie :seeya:

It must be something like that, because it was definitely the two colleagues who found them. Poor wording by the judge though. I'm surprised if the police let him see the scene. Pretty much everyone would have been a suspect to start with, surely, so they would have kept everyone away?

Melbourne Grammar School has had a very sad year. First the ex-student stabbing a homeless guy, then this, and now poor Josh Hardy outside McDonalds last weekend. It's getting scarier out there.

 

[SouthAussie]

I googled maximum sentences in Victoria, and life is the maximum sentence for murder. I really want to understand how it wasn't that. Pre-mediated, unprovoked, brutal, and no remorse. Even his own lawyer said there had been no remorse.

What makes it even more horrible is .... the sentence is similar to those given to other murderers ... Adrian Bayley, for example, who murdered Jill Meagher. But Thomas Hemming brutally murdered two innocent people. Should his sentence not be doubled??

 

[ozman]

32 years doesn't feel like justice to me. Sorry if that offends, ozman, I don't mean to add to your pain. But 16 years each?

Don't worry about offending me by talking about this. Regardless of how I know Tom, I fully support locking up double-homicide suspects and throwing away the key in general. I'm not here to try to defend Tom or his actions. He did what he did, admitted to it, and should face the consequences of his actions. People who do the kinds of things that Tom did deserves to go to prison for a very long time.