Australia Australia - Robert Hiscock, 56, Sydney, 16 Nov 1966

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Btw, I couldn't even imagine what I'd be like if I quit my coke zero and coffee :notgood: :blushing:[/QUOTE]

Beer o'clock time :happydance:
 
Nosiness helps solves cases. If questions aren't asked, nothing moves forward. Sometimes the jigsaw puzzle is small and easily solved. Other times it's a behemoth and all the pieces look similar so it takes much longer to work out. And Hiscock's Saddlery may have closed in Wagga but it seems to be very much alive and kicking in its home town of Tamworth.

http://www.hiscocksdirect.com.au/

Self mutilation is a thing, I will grant you. Self mutilation involving cutting out your own tongue and cutting off your own ears is not exactly believable. This, in my inexpert opinion, was done to him and not by him. Web research indicates mutilation of this nature to have foundations in both religion (masons, templars, Islam) as well as crime. Do people believe that he said what he did about the masons? He was Catholic but he also came from a well known family with a history in business. Masonic membership is very possible.
 
Another piece of the puzzle. From Trove, which is a brilliant historical resource:

HISCOCK— McINERNEY

The marriage of Anne, youngest daughter of Mr. and Mrs. McInerney, of Docker-street, Wagga, to Robert, eldest son of Mr. and Mrs. R. Hiscock, of Wagga, was solemnised at All Hallows Church. Five Dock. Sydney, on Thursday. December 23, by the Rev. Father Peoples. On Christmas Day the young couple were the guests of the bridegroom's aunt, Mrs. J. Hehir. of Coronation . Avenue. Five Dock, and are now spending their- honeymoon at Manly and Bondi.

His ties to Manly went back a long way. This is from the Wagga Wagga Daily Advertiser, Friday 31 December, 1937.
 
Earlier today I found a link to a Hiscock obit, feller was having a Masonic funeral.. and of course! I forgot to bookmark it! I think I'll start my day off tomorrow with a very large cafe latte, LOL. So I dunno yet if it was a relative, but the Masonic funeral caught my eye.

I think where I got muddled earlier re the taxi was that the report also says:

They said Hiscock had met and spoken with relatives at Circular Quay late Wednesday afternoon.

Soon after, he took a ferry to Manly where he again met his relatives.

But there's no mention of which relatives he was hanging out with. One report said he was drinking in a few pubs that afternoon, another said he was last seen about 4.30 - I have to assume this was by the relatives.

And yep, I agree, it's very hard to imagine anyone mutilating themselves to that extent. But sadly, it does happen. Did it happen in this case? If there wasn't a recent large inheritance, which might point to a motive, and a few other oddities, I might be more inclined to think so.

I mean, who knows who he told about the Masons and the cutting out of tongues. That, and his recent good fortune.

If you've ever seen a bad tongue injury (I have..) it bleeds a LOT, and that's just a bad cut, not severed. So would two severed ears. Never mind the cuts to his throat. I would think if he'd done this himself, there would be a massive pool of blood somewhere before he jumped into the sea and drowned (which was cause of death). But there's no mention of anyone finding such a mess, which is a bit strange for a relatively busy beach area.\

What if he was drowned -before- the mutilation?

And then we have that knife poked into somebody's lawn in the area.
 
Holy cow, is this his older sister?

WOMAN'S FEET CUT OFF

SYDNEY.-A woman, whose identity card gave the name of Mrs. Agnes Leta Lawrence, of Lakemba, had both her feet cut off when she fell from a train in a tunnel near Town Hall Station today.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article49553154
 
Yes it is his sister! What terrible luck this family had, his brother Adrian was struck by a car and left not mentally sound and institutionalised, and with what happened with Robert.
 
Snoop Dog said:
Yes it is his sister! What terrible luck this family had, his brother Adrian was struck by a car and left not mentally sound and institutionalised, and with what happened with Robert.
Click to expand...

I know right? poor family.. they sure had their share of tragedies.

The sister in law who took Robert to the hospital must be Agnes' husband's sister.

I wonder if it was two different lots of relatives he met up with, that afternoon? And if he phoned ahead.. looking for somewhere to stay, possibly, as was suggested earlier? Did he meet with rellies and perhaps arrange to meet them later in Manly, if they were the same people.. ?

Just another thought on his injuries..

The coroner said his tongue was "cut out at the root". Here's the thing with that -- the root of the tongue is pretty far back in your head. even you stick your tongue out as far as it can go, you will have trouble getting access to the area where it attaches. Cutting off a portion of his tongue? Sure, I can see that. But to excise the entire tongue, down to the root?

Not as easy as it sounds. Not a lot of space back there.

Anyway, where's his tongue, his ears, the knife? The large pool of blood he'd have shed in the process? Did he stand in the water and do all this, and throw his body parts into the sea, and the knife out far enough that police divers couldn't retrieve it?

The timing of the screams heard by three separate households near Harbord beach, around the time Robert is said to have drowned to death (2am, which would be "several hours" before his body was found) cannot be a coincidence. So the cops would have had a fair idea of where to look for these things. And apparently didn't find them. Which was tidy of him, wasn't it.

I'd also like to know what the injuries to his throat actually were - in some reports it's "five stab wounds" in others "throat cut from ear to ear". Two completely different actions there.
 
Was animal intervention (sharks-eels-crabs-octopi) or boat propellers totally ruled out?
 
STANDREID said:
Was animal intervention (sharks-eels-crabs-octopi) or boat propellers totally ruled out?
Click to expand...

Stan - this was something i was pondering when I first read the article. But the coroner stated his injuries were caused by a sharp instrument, and I doubt a propeller could get down his throat to the root of his tongue.
 
The only "Alan Lawrence" I can find in the family is the husband of his sister Agnes (of the unfortunate train accident) -- so it must have been his sister, and not "sister in law" as reported, who took him to the hospital.
 
Robert Hiscock timeline (taken from linked msm articles)

(please feel free to correct/add to this as info is found). :)

October 1963 - January 1964: Robert is an "inmate" at the Ryde psychiatric hospital and was an outpatient for some time after.

A welfare officer employed there reported that in "late 1964" he'd overheard Robert telling a group of men that the consequence of breaking the Masonic Oath (divulging Masonic secrets) was having one's tongue out and being cast into the sea.

NOTE: this statement reads like the original wording was from some sort of formal text.

"6 years prior" to his death: During this time, according to his sister Agnes, Robert took several holiday cruises to "the East", and during one of these purchased the "foreign" pants he was wearing when he died.

"Some time prior" to his death: Robert had inherited a large sum of money, according to Agnes.

Mid-year, 1966: Robert left (or was made to leave) the family home in Tamworth due to his alcoholism. The saddlery business is described in November as belonging to his wife.

Robert "was known to frequent the Manly area" and had been employed as a cleaner at the North Head army barracks and also worked at the Balgowlah telephone exchange.

September 1966: Robert comes to stay with his sister Agnes and her husband Allan Lawrence in Wagga Wagga for about 6 weeks. They decide to hospitalise him for a "nervous disorder".

Nov 8th, 1966: Agnes travelled to Hydebrae Hospital with Robert, where he was hospitalised for alcoholism. He told Agnes he'd leave the hospital as soon as she returned home to Wagga, resulting in Agnes staying in Sydney for "some days". Agnes stated that Robert must've left the hospital the same day she left for home, Nov 16th.

Wednesday Nov 16th, 1966:

10am - Robert left the hospital in a taxi, which dropped him at Strathfield train station. He had with him a small brown suitcase, also described as a "large briefcase". He had about $200 on him.
.
"Late Afternoon": Robert met up with relatives in Circular Quay. "Soon after", he took a ferry to Manly where he met up relatives again. No mention is made of whether these were the same relatives he'd met with earlier.

4- 4.30pm: Last sighting of Robert Hiscock alive, at the Pacific Hotel, Manly

Thursday Nov 17th

approx. 2am: Women from three separate households near Harbord Beach hear a man screaming.

3.30 pm: a surfie find Robert's body "washed up" on South Curl Curl beach. He had been stabbed in the side of the neck several times, his throat was cut, both of his ears had been sliced off, and his tongue was cut out "at the root". He was wearing the same clothes in which he'd left the hospital, minus his watch, coat and wallet.

Police believed he's been in the water about 12 hours.

Saturday Nov 19th

A dry cleaner in Wagga recognised a dry cleaning tag pictured in the paper as belonging to his shop. The name on the tag was "H Lawrence", apparently a distortion of "A Lawrence", who was the husband of Robert's sister Agnes. The dry cleaner contacted authorities, who contacted the Lawrences. Agnes gathered up 10 pages of material proving Robert's identity and sent these to police in Sydney, where "a brother-in-law" identified his body.

November 28 - Dec1 (approx)

A Fairy Bower resident found a 12-inch carving knife (with 9 inch blade) driven deep into her front lawn, with what appeared to bloodstains on it. She handed this to police, who found it of interest to the case.

Police divers discover Robert's wallet and coat in the sea at Fairy Bower. His wallet contained only a few coins.

On Dec 1 the SMH reports that police are "convinced" Robert was murdered.

August 1967

At an inquest into Robert's death, evidence was given that Robert had officially died of drowning. Medical witnesses testified that it was possible his injuries were self-inflicted.

The Hiscock family appealed for an open finding.

Map of places relevant to Robert's death:

Fairy Bower Beach -- where his wallet, coat and other belongings were found.
Harbord Beach -- where residents heard a man screaming at 2am
South Curl Curl Beach -- where his body 'washed up'.

https://www.google.com.au/maps/dir/...1!1s0x6b12aafebfd1b3d9:0xc945b786ac4ebb78!3e0
 
Fantastic work putting all that together Ausgirl! Not easy when you can't just copy and paste that info, thank you for doing that.

I still can't believe that some of the medical staff would think those wounds could be self-inflicted, I just can't fathom someone being able to do that to themselves, just too severe.

So the last people to see him were apparently family members, like you Ausgirl, I wonder if they were the same people he'd met up with earlier that day, and whether he was planning on staying with one of them?

His other sister Thelma died quite young also, she was 48 according to this link:
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=4767522&id=I6457
Not sure how she died though.

It must've been hard for Agnes to leave the hospital knowing he was going to leave pretty much as soon as she left, but what more could she do?

Why did he take his watch off? Was it ever found?
Why wasn't there a big pool of blood somewhere, unless he was in the water when it happened?
How did his belongings get to where they were found?
If the Dry Cleaner didn't recognise the garment would he ever have been identified?
I wonder if police still have the knife and can test that blood that was on it?

Lots of questions.
 
Yes Snoopdog so many questions and a huge thanks Ausgirl for the timeline!

One thought I have is of a hate crime, just putting out there if he was gay, you could drink and have nervous condition, definitely not accepted at time I presume people were made to feel something was "wrong with them"
 
Here's a couple of scenarios that might apply, just ruminations going on in my head, based on the available info :

Murder

If you wanted to do away with a troublesome person, for possible financial gain, who has a history of mental issues and alcoholism. you could...

- encourage him to leave the treatment facility
- encourage him to drink himself into a stupor
- drive him to a well-known local suicide spot, throw his belongings into the sea there
- perhaps due to risk of discovery, drive him (sans belongings) to a more secluded beach a bit further north
- either drown him before mutilating his body to match delusional statements known to have been spoken by him in a mental hospital several years before, to help support a finding of 'suicide' - or mutilate him first, throw him in the sea later.

Suicide

Robert, a troubled man suffering severe alcoholism, with a history of mental illness, who has just lost his family, home and business and isn't coping well...

- Leaves rehab, heads straight for familiar drinking haunts
- Connects with family in the process, and thereafter for some reason decides to end it all
- Secures a sharp knife from somewhere (doubtful he had this in rehab, where'd he get it?)
- Goes to local suicide spot, strips off coat,watch and wallet, throws these into the sea for some reason
***see below
- Proceeds to cut off both his ears and somehow cut his tongue out at the root (quite difficult to do) without drowning on his own blood in the process, stab himself in the neck and cut his own throat. Possibly does this while standing in the water, as no pool or trail of blood is found at location
- Throws knife into the sea
- Doesn't quite die right away, is washed along to Harbord beach where he's heard screaming. Drowns at some point along there.
- Is washed up at Curl Curl 12 hours later

OR ****

- After disposing of watch, wallet and coat (and possibly suitcase? not sure..) at suicide spot, he changes his mind about the location and walks (very drunk) several km's to Harbord beach, where he stands in the water or close to the shoreline (no blood pool..) and mutilates himself, is heard screaming by locals.
- Throws himself into the sea and drowns, washes up at Curl Curl
 
I feel murder is 99% likely- just by whom and for what purpose? It would be easier to drown him while drunk and there would have been much less attention and written off as a suicide which leaves the mutilation either some "maniac" or as a sign (Freemasons)?
 
StarrChance said:
I feel murder is 99% likely- just by whom and for what purpose? It would be easier to drown him while drunk and there would have been much less attention and written off as a suicide which leaves the mutilation either some "maniac" or as a sign (Freemasons)?
Click to expand...

bbm

I'm about 50/50, really. Truly in two minds. And the mutilation is part of why.

In several cases I've researched where the crime was staged to look like something it wasn't (outright murder disguised as a sexual crime/robbery gone wrong, murder disguised as a suicide, etc) there's been "overkill" on the body in some regard, and/or manipulation of the crime scene that leaves things "not quite adding up".

So sure, somebody could have just drowned him, but they might have equally gone "overboard" in an attempt to disguise the crime, thus actually achieving the opposite and making it more suspicious. This does happen, because guilty people panic and quit thinking straight. That's how they get caught, too, sometimes.

Mutilation can also be used to cover up incriminating bruises that could point to homicide (around his throat or ears, for example).

This said, the sad fact is some people really do immense and difficult to comprehend damage to themselves. Just, the logistics in this one don't quite gel for me.
 
Any postmortem photos available? Sometimes you see things in those that don't fit what you picture from the description.
 
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