Found Deceased Australia - Russell Hill, 74, & Carol Clay, 72, Wonnangatta Valley, 20 March 2020 #2

[TootsieFootsie]

I don't recall that it has ever been said that Russell was skilled in outdoor survival ?

 

[Estelle]

In reply to Trujac who said:

In reality though, I suspect misadventure over staged disappearance or murder--because RH and CC seemingly vanished into thin air...leaving no bread crumbs to track.

This is exactly why I predict that they were abducted at gunpoint or with some other weapon.

In this case, you have two elderly adults, one skilled in outdoor survival camping and a ham radio operator, settled in their campsite--who were known not to be bush walkers or to wander a distance from their tent and vehicle.

They were probably abducted overnight from a lying down position as they were probably asleep so very vulnerable and had no way of defending themselves. If they did not wander far from their campsite and both had an accident, they would have been found by now in the police searches.

How do they simply disappear leaving no trace evidence via clothing, cell phone signals, shoe tracks, dropped or broken personal belongings, etc? IMO, had someone out of the blue driven up to RH and CC's campsite and threatened them with a weapon--demanding that they get into a waiting vehicle, I think RH and CC would have put up some sort of resistance. I think they would have realized that they had one chance to save themselves from an unknown and deadly situation. Had that happened--there should have been evidence of struggle--e.g., drag marks, blood drops, torn hair, etc.

How could they have resisted if they were asleep at the time and in the dark?

Had someone tracked them from a town area or somewhere within the valley--there should be some evidence somewhere that they were trailed and stalked.

It appears that police are still asking for people who were there at the time to come forward and reveal if they saw any other cars or people in the area. Tracking in that remote area would be almost impossible as there was probably poor reception on mobile phones and no CCTV so how would you expect police to find evidence with which to track the perpetrators? They need an eye witness.

When looking at the tent fire ruins--had someone purposely started the tent fire--why didn't they burn out the interior of RH's truck too? Why leave everything untouched in the truck? It's those puzzling aspects to this case that lead me to think RH and CC's disappearance was some type of accident.

I don't think the perpetrators would have been too concerned whether RH's vehicle got burnt or not and probably just lit the fire quickly and got out of there as fast as they could. They would not want to have hung around.

 

[SouthAussie]

In reply to Trujac who said:

In reality though, I suspect misadventure over staged disappearance or murder--because RH and CC seemingly vanished into thin air...leaving no bread crumbs to track.

This is exactly why I predict that they were abducted at gunpoint or with some other weapon.

In this case, you have two elderly adults, one skilled in outdoor survival camping and a ham radio operator, settled in their campsite--who were known not to be bush walkers or to wander a distance from their tent and vehicle.

They were probably abducted overnight from a lying down position as they were probably asleep so very vulnerable and had no way of defending themselves. If they did not wander far from their campsite and both had an accident, they would have been found by now in the police searches.

How do they simply disappear leaving no trace evidence via clothing, cell phone signals, shoe tracks, dropped or broken personal belongings, etc? IMO, had someone out of the blue driven up to RH and CC's campsite and threatened them with a weapon--demanding that they get into a waiting vehicle, I think RH and CC would have put up some sort of resistance. I think they would have realized that they had one chance to save themselves from an unknown and deadly situation. Had that happened--there should have been evidence of struggle--e.g., drag marks, blood drops, torn hair, etc.

How could they have resisted if they were asleep at the time and in the dark?

Had someone tracked them from a town area or somewhere within the valley--there should be some evidence somewhere that they were trailed and stalked.

It appears that police are still asking for people who were there at the time to come forward and reveal if they saw any other cars or people in the area. Tracking in that remote area would be almost impossible as there was probably poor reception on mobile phones and no CCTV so how would you expect police to find evidence with which to track the perpetrators? They need an eye witness.

When looking at the tent fire ruins--had someone purposely started the tent fire--why didn't they burn out the interior of RH's truck too? Why leave everything untouched in the truck? It's those puzzling aspects to this case that lead me to think RH and CC's disappearance was some type of accident.

I don't think the perpetrators would have been too concerned whether RH's vehicle got burnt or not and probably just lit the fire quickly and got out of there as fast as they could. They would not want to have hung around.

And as Rob Ashlin said, he thinks two perpetrators were involved. I wonder if he is thinking of two specific people. Two people would definitely have been able to control the situation, as well as cart Russell and Carol further away.

I have an inkling that Rob has been trying to say something ..... something he cannot elaborate on due to the police investigation.

I think that of all the people that Russell may have confided in, it was Rob who heard what Russell had to say. Friends for 15 years.
And it has been Rob who has spoken with the media in a bit more detail. It is Rob who is afraid his friend (and Carol) has been killed. And now it is also the police.

 

[Eloise]

I don't recall that it has ever been said that Russell was skilled in outdoor survival ?

This. He was an experienced camper but never ventured far from campsite, so his 'outdoor survival' skills might not have been very good at all.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

And as Rob Ashlin said, he thinks two perpetrators were involved. I wonder if he is thinking of two specific people. Two people would definitely have been able to control the situation, as well as cart Russell and Carol further away.

I have an inkling that Rob has been trying to say something ..... something he cannot elaborate on due to the police investigation.

I think that of all the people that Russell may have confided in, it was Rob who heard what Russell had to say. Friends for 15 years.
And it has been Rob who has spoken with the media in a bit more detail. It is Rob who is afraid his friend (and Carol) has been killed. And now it is also the police.

Come on now. So unfair to tease out this suspicion. Who are the two suspected perps? No names needed but a description of the relationships. I’ll die from curiosity.

 

[SouthAussie]

Come on now. So unfair to tease out this suspicion. Who are the two suspected perps? No names needed but a description of the relationships. I’ll die from curiosity.

I was wrong, Rob says "more than one person" ... I think I understood that as two people.

But I wish we knew more about the relationships surrounding Russell and Carol.


'Russell would never, ever leave his vehicle.
'He's been attacked, I believe there is more than one person involved,' Mr Ashlin explained.
Russell Hill's best mate believes his friend was ATTACKED after speaking to him before he vanished | Daily Mail Online

 

[srper2]

I saw this YouTube video made by an elderly Mavic enthusiast. I thought how a similar video could have been made by Russell Hill if he had survived his trip. This man panicked and went into the bush searching for his drone. He spent hours searching, but was in a place where he couldn't really get lost. If this had been RH and CC had gone with him, how far could they have walked if they became lost? RH's friend said he would never leave his camp, but would he have left it to search for a lost $2000 drone? If he did go to search for the drone, it was probably in the bush near his camp, or he likely would have driven his car away from the camp to start his search if it had crashed or become lost a longer distance away over the un treed areas. The average temps there seem to be around 7C at night and only 15C in the daytime. How long would an unwell old man and a "beauty queen" survive in those temps? If one or both were injured? Could they have gone into the bush to search for the drone and become sick, injured or even accidentally shot?
Has anyone seen a copy of any map showing a search area covered?

 

[trujac]

I saw this YouTube video made by an elderly Mavic enthusiast. I thought how a similar video could have been made by Russell Hill if he had survived his trip. This man panicked and went into the bush searching for his drone. He spent hours searching, but was in a place where he couldn't really get lost. If this had been RH and CC had gone with him, how far could they have walked if they became lost? RH's friend said he would never leave his camp, but would he have left it to search for a lost $2000 drone? If he did go to search for the drone, it was probably in the bush near his camp, or he likely would have driven his car away from the camp to start his search if it had crashed or become lost a longer distance away. The average temps there seem to be around 7C at night and only 15C in the daytime. How long would an unwell old man and a "beauty queen" survive in those temps? If one or both were injured? Could they have gone into the bush to search for the drone and become sick, injured or even accidentally shot?
Has anyone seen a copy of any map showing a search area covered?

I agree...the drone or something else caused RH and CC to step beyond the boundaries of their campsite...I think the main contention point between people offering their opinions, including RH and CC's family and friend's viewpoints, is whether a nefarious catalyst occurred (one or more killers are responsible for removing RH and CC from their campsite or abducting them from some other area) or a natural event happened that caused RH and CC to leave their campsite on their own accord. Had RH and CC left their tent area by foot it is not unreasonable to think that they might have suffered a mishap that resulted in their deaths; imo, a lot of people have perished in harsh environments--deserts, jungles, forests, and bush areas--never to be found. Unless LE can find RH and CC (dead or alive) or they locate definitive evidence (someone confesses, the murder weapon is found, incriminating cell/vehicle/records, etc...) this remains a case where everyone is taking potshots in the dark hoping for a hit.

 

[SouthAussie]

I saw this YouTube video made by an elderly Mavic enthusiast. I thought how a similar video could have been made by Russell Hill if he had survived his trip. This man panicked and went into the bush searching for his drone. He spent hours searching, but was in a place where he couldn't really get lost. If this had been RH and CC had gone with him, how far could they have walked if they became lost? RH's friend said he would never leave his camp, but would he have left it to search for a lost $2000 drone? If he did go to search for the drone, it was probably in the bush near his camp, or he likely would have driven his car away from the camp to start his search if it had crashed or become lost a longer distance away over the un treed areas. The average temps there seem to be around 7C at night and only 15C in the daytime. How long would an unwell old man and a "beauty queen" survive in those temps? If one or both were injured? Could they have gone into the bush to search for the drone and become sick, injured or even accidentally shot?
Has anyone seen a copy of any map showing a search area covered?

Just going to bump this post for you. Makes me wonder if Russell even had the chance to fly his drone.

I still like to practise flying manually as I like to keep my hand in and know that if I where to lose signal with the GPS through the app then I can still control the drone.
As for being easier with or without the app then for most people they would probably find it easier, as you can set altitude, flight path, hold position and a host of other things as well as return to home mode automatically.
For me personally I still use the app when I'm taking pictures and video as you can see through the phone exactly what the camera is seeing in real time and make adjustments for better pictures.
I hope all this makes sense lol....

And this ....

The other issue that casts doubt on this theory is the drone itself.
Russell had an app on his phone for the drone, but had not uploaded any footage to his account from that Wonnangatta trip.
Another theory is that if Russell’s drone went down in bushland, the pair might have got lost looking for it.
But police have not been able to find any flight path data from the trip.
While Inspector Stamper says that doesn’t mean a flight didn’t occur, it does mean if it did happen, it’s a flight that has also left no digital trace.
Four people have gone missing within a 60km radius in the past year. Their fate remains a mystery

 

[trujac]

I saw this YouTube video made by an elderly Mavic enthusiast. I thought how a similar video could have been made by Russell Hill if he had survived his trip...
Has anyone seen a copy of any map showing a search area covered?

This is a great video--thanks for uploading it!

 

[trujac]

Just going to bump this post for you. Makes me wonder if Russell even had the chance to fly his drone.
Any number of reasons could have caused RH's drone to lose its flight/data information. Drone's also are subjected to hacking--someone in the area where RH was flying his drone could have hacked it.
Security and drones — what you need to know
And this ....
The other issue that casts doubt on this theory is the drone itself.
Russell had an app on his phone for the drone, but had not uploaded any footage to his account from that Wonnangatta trip.
Another theory is that if Russell’s drone went down in bushland, the pair might have got lost looking for it.
But police have not been able to find any flight path data from the trip.
While Inspector Stamper says that doesn’t mean a flight didn’t occur, it does mean if it did happen, it’s a flight that has also left no digital trace.
Four people have gone missing within a 60km radius in the past year. Their fate remains a mystery

Any number of reasons could have caused RH's drone to lose its flight data information. Drones also are subjected to hacking--someone in the area where RH was flying his drone could have hacked it.
Security and drones — what you need to know

 

[they'll get you]

I was wrong, Rob says "more than one person" ... I think I understood that as two people.

But I wish we knew more about the relationships surrounding Russell and Carol.


'Russell would never, ever leave his vehicle.
'He's been attacked, I believe there is more than one person involved,' Mr Ashlin explained.
Russell Hill's best mate believes his friend was ATTACKED after speaking to him before he vanished | Daily Mail Online

I too would love to know more about relationships and a 70 year old woman referred to as a ‘beauty queen’. That imo is a very strange comment which makes me wonder if Carol had more than one suitor.

 

[SouthAussie]

I too would love to know more about relationships and a 70 year old woman referred to as a ‘beauty queen’. That imo is a very strange comment which makes me wonder if Carol had more than one suitor.

Or a stalker. Although her friend who was interviewed gave no indication of that.

 

[SouthAussie]

Any number of reasons could have caused RH's drone to lose its flight data information. Drones also are subjected to hacking--someone in the area where RH was flying his drone could have hacked it.
Security and drones — what you need to know

At the moment, I (personally) am more interested in delving into the possibilities of why the police think foul play is involved.

I trust the police instinct. And we have all seen their methodology in the many cases we have followed here. So I am finding it interesting to explore those options.

We know the police have had drones up, dogs out, people searching high and low for Russell and Carol for more than 30 days. With no luck.

We know they plan to go back and do more searching. If Russell and Carol are lost, that is all that can be done.

But as of mid-June the police were prepared to divulge to the media that they think foul play is involved.

Anything is possible, of course. But for some reason, maybe several reasons, the police are leaning toward foul play ... after all of this time of investigating.

The mysterious disappearance of a married man and his female friend on a secret camping trip has taken a dark twist with police revealing the pair were likely victims of ‘foul play’.
Police suspect foul play involved in the disappearance of campers Russell Hill and Carol Clay | | Express Digest

 

[they'll get you]

I saw this YouTube video made by an elderly Mavic enthusiast. I thought how a similar video could have been made by Russell Hill if he had survived his trip. This man panicked and went into the bush searching for his drone. He spent hours searching, but was in a place where he couldn't really get lost. If this had been RH and CC had gone with him, how far could they have walked if they became lost? RH's friend said he would never leave his camp, but would he have left it to search for a lost $2000 drone? If he did go to search for the drone, it was probably in the bush near his camp, or he likely would have driven his car away from the camp to start his search if it had crashed or become lost a longer distance away over the un treed areas. The average temps there seem to be around 7C at night and only 15C in the daytime. How long would an unwell old man and a "beauty queen" survive in those temps? If one or both were injured? Could they have gone into the bush to search for the drone and become sick, injured or even accidentally shot?
Has anyone seen a copy of any map showing a search area covered?

I’m covering all bases here and thinking aloud.
In this video it’s understandable that someone would go above and beyond to find a $2,000 drone.

Did Russel climb a tree to recover it and got hooked or hurt up in the tree? (I hope the searchers thought to look up)
Russell had the ute keys and the ute was locked so Carol had no transport.
But it still doesn’t explain the fire unless in panic with no way to help Carol started the fire to alert someone to help?

I remember Gary Tweddle went missing in Katoomba. His body was found down off a cliff entangled in a tree. He would never have been found but for a rescue helicopter searching for someone else.

The man's body was spotted by an ambulance rescue helicopter in a tree growing out of a crevice in a cliff at Leura.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/gary-tweddles-body-found-police-believe-20130902-2t0vl.html

 

[they'll get you]

Or a stalker. Although her friend who was interviewed gave no indication of that.

Is that the same friend that Carol kept in the dark about a quite a few things?

 

[they'll get you]

Come on now. So unfair to tease out this suspicion. Who are the two suspected perps? No names needed but a description of the relationships. I’ll die from curiosity.

A penny for your thoughts mom?

 

[they'll get you]

At the moment, I (personally) am more interested in delving into the possibilities of why the police think foul play is involved.

I trust the police instinct. And we have all seen their methodology in the many cases we have followed here. So I am finding it interesting to explore those options.

We know the police have had drones up, dogs out, people searching high and low for Russell and Carol for more than 30 days. With no luck.

We know they plan to go back and do more searching. If Russell and Carol are lost, that is all that can be done.

But as of mid-June the police were prepared to divulge to the media that they think foul play is involved.

Anything is possible, of course. But for some reason, maybe several reasons, the police are leaning toward foul play ... after all of this time of investigating.

The mysterious disappearance of a married man and his female friend on a secret camping trip has taken a dark twist with police revealing the pair were likely victims of ‘foul play’.
Police suspect foul play involved in the disappearance of campers Russell Hill and Carol Clay | | Express Digest

1) It’s all about the fire.
2) Motivation.

 

[trujac]

In reply to Trujac who said:

In reality though, I suspect misadventure over staged disappearance or murder--because RH and CC seemingly vanished into thin air...leaving no bread crumbs to track.

This is exactly why I predict that they were abducted at gunpoint or with some other weapon.

In this case, you have two elderly adults, one skilled in outdoor survival camping and a ham radio operator, settled in their campsite--who were known not to be bush walkers or to wander a distance from their tent and vehicle.

They were probably abducted overnight from a lying down position as they were probably asleep so very vulnerable and had no way of defending themselves. If they did not wander far from their campsite and both had an accident, they would have been found by now in the police searches.

How do they simply disappear leaving no trace evidence via clothing, cell phone signals, shoe tracks, dropped or broken personal belongings, etc? IMO, had someone out of the blue driven up to RH and CC's campsite and threatened them with a weapon--demanding that they get into a waiting vehicle, I think RH and CC would have put up some sort of resistance. I think they would have realized that they had one chance to save themselves from an unknown and deadly situation. Had that happened--there should have been evidence of struggle--e.g., drag marks, blood drops, torn hair, etc.

How could they have resisted if they were asleep at the time and in the dark?

Had someone tracked them from a town area or somewhere within the valley--there should be some evidence somewhere that they were trailed and stalked.

It appears that police are still asking for people who were there at the time to come forward and reveal if they saw any other cars or people in the area. Tracking in that remote area would be almost impossible as there was probably poor reception on mobile phones and no CCTV so how would you expect police to find evidence with which to track the perpetrators? They need an eye witness.

When looking at the tent fire ruins--had someone purposely started the tent fire--why didn't they burn out the interior of RH's truck too? Why leave everything untouched in the truck? It's those puzzling aspects to this case that lead me to think RH and CC's disappearance was some type of accident.

I don't think the perpetrators would have been too concerned whether RH's vehicle got burnt or not and probably just lit the fire quickly and got out of there as fast as they could. They would not want to have hung around.

Very nice and thoughtful counter synopis on my narrative. In the end, RH and CC hold the answers. I hope somehow this case is cracked wide open for everyone to see what happened to them.

 

[SouthAussie]

Is that the same friend that Carol kept in the dark about a quite a few things?

It seems that some of Carol's family were aware she was going away with Russell. I wonder what she told her friends. Do we know? Likely in that video of one of her friends speaking with the media. Maybe they knew more than they have let on to the media, depending how close Carol is to them. And if the police have asked them not to talk about certain aspects of the case.


Clay, meanwhile, had told friends she was going away for a few days and expected to be home by March 28 or 29.
Hill’s family did not know he was going away with Clay, but some of her family were aware.
https://7news.com.au/news/vic/missi...together-month-before-disappearance-c-1057655