Australia - Russell Hill & Carol Clay Murdered While Camping - Wonnangatta Valley, 2020 #8

[changintimes]

I don't comprehend the layout of the camp. In this, from the appeal judgement, what does "nearside" mean? Side near to what?

Three near circular spatter bloodstains, less than or equal to 1.5 mm and two unclassifiable bloodstains were found distributed on the rear panel of the frontmost section of the nearside of the canopy. The expert opinion is that the stains were caused by the application of a force to liquid blood in addition to gravity. Apparent fatty deposits were also observed. DNA analysis provided extremely strong support for the proposition that Carol Clay was the source of the blood and fatty deposits.

DPP v Lynn [2024] VSCA 62 (12 April 2024)

I would say it means the side of the vehicle where Carol was murdered. Not the other side of the vehicle.

Note: above is referencing Australian vehicles and travel on Australian roadways.

 

[changintimes]

Character evidence is a thing. It's risky because if the defence plans to claim that the accused is of good character and hence unlikely to have committed the offence with which he's charged, the prosecution is allowed to call character evidence to the contrary. Arguably it's possible to dig up dirt on anyone. It would not be hearsay on either side. It would be testimony as to the witness's experience of the accused.

experiences by another person regarding possibly thousands of different interactions IMO would not be relevant.

 

[JLZ]

experiences by another person regarding possibly thousands of different interactions IMO would not be relevant.

Fine. I tend to agree. George Pell's character witnesses, for example.

 

[wallyworld]

Bravo Andrew Rule, for telling us how he really feels!

That is how many of us feel.

Andrew Rule is one of my favorite journalists. Well worth following.

 

[changintimes]

@changintimes
Can you tell me how many seats were in Russell's 4x 4?
Also, what was the lead investigator's name?
Finally, what was the date Clay and Hill arrived at Buck's camp?

2 seats only with a centre console.

 

[wallyworld]

It also helps a person of interest draw scene depictions to explain what they are saying.

IMO he has used it as a memory recall for his fabricated story of events that he had 18 months to go over. He had that story well and truly drilled into his mind.

 

[changintimes]

Not sure if this is behind a paywall but was published in yesterday's Herald Sun written by Andrew Rule:

"If Greg Lynn appeals, which he almost certainly will, the wife-bashing, pet-killing, car-painting, camouflage-wearing gun crank could soon be back on the street."
"If that’s how the Wonnangatta killings eventually play out, it means a calculating psychopath will have created a legal blueprint for how to create reasonable doubt through the deliberate and meticulous destruction of evidence."
"If the Lynn defence ultimately succeeds, and he once more walks amongst us, it threatens to open an escape hatch in future homicide cases where the accused “does a Greg Lynn.”
full article here:

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/andrew-rule/andrew-rule-murderers-should-not-be-discouraged-by-the-halfandhalf-guilty-verdict-in-the-greg-lynn-trial/news-story/a3d59e94c0edcaae1a0858f7b972106d

In our big wide wonderful world we never know who we are walking or sitting next to or even sleeping next to, or even communicating with via social media sites. Living life is a risk we all take. All we can do and know for certain, is how we individually live our lives. IMO

 

[Cliff Hardy]

There were no witnesses to be called, only the person that was at the scene and that person, put himself at great risk giving evidence. How a person behaved on another date, at any time, or at any place, is not relevant to the case IMO. Hearsay does not belong in any trial.

It is advantageous for the defence to show their client in the best possible light to the jury. Do you not understand that?

Dann wasn't able to do that because with Lynn, any attempt at calling character witnesses would have revealed what type of person he was and that was the last thing the defence wanted the jury to know.

 

[changintimes]

@changintimes
Can you tell me how many seats were in Russell's 4x 4?
Also, what was the lead investigator's name?
Finally, what was the date Clay and Hill arrived at Buck's camp?

Oh this sounds as though you are putting me through a test, so here goes. Do I get a gold star if all my answers are correct?!

2 seats (see photos in above post)
Lead investigators - hmm that's a trick question as there were several, all depends on which Victoria Police Department would be referred to as the case was handled by various departments
20/3/2020. On 19/3/2020 RH departed his Drouin home and collected CC on the same date, from her Pakenham home, and they spent the 1st night at Howitt High Plains area. They then made their way to Bucks Camp on 20th, mid afternoon. https://www.theaustralian.com.au/br...d/news-story/51673fe275bcf68134dc14afa10644b9

 

[changintimes]

IMO he has used it as a memory recall for his fabricated story of events that he had 18 months to go over. He had that story well and truly drilled into his mind.

We all use memory recall and that's what all humans (and elephants) are extremely good at. It is actually extremely difficult for a human to recall a lie told, exactly as told in 'a connected string' as it was told, in the 1st instance. IMO from personal and professional experience.

 

[Cliff Hardy]

experiences by another person regarding possibly thousands of different interactions IMO would not be relevant.

You just don't get how trials work do you?

The defence would have called character witnesses in an attempt to make Lynn look like a boy scout to the jury if they possibly could have but in Lynn's case that option was off the table.

Why? Because if Dann had managed to find someone who might be prepared to say a nice word about Lynn and put that person on the stand, the prosecution would have responded by calling rebuttal witnesses. Do you know what a rebuttal witness is?

If you do, you'll know rebuttal witnesses in Lynn's case were a definite no-no, as the jury would have found out what sort of person he really is and probably taken a whole lot less time deliberating and come back with 2 guilty verdicts instead of one.

 

[AussieIan]

IMO he has used it as a memory recall for his fabricated story of events that he had 18 months to go over. He had that story well and truly drilled into his mind.

18 months and the best he came up with was RH stealing his firearm and shooting it in thebair I was a little disappointed.

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>

@changintimes I've asked as many questions as anyone but I think at the end of the day while elements could have happened like Lynn said, the jury wasn't convinced and fair enough.

While the ballistics expert didnt use Lynns shotgun it was the same model from the armoury, while unprofessional and a bad look to lie about it it wouldn't make a difference to the actual test results. I'm not sure why you're fixated on the mirror? What are you querying it's a bit hard to follow.

 

[wallyworld]

In 2014, a google image search of Mr Lynn's address showed a white car in his driveway.
In 2019, it was blue
In 2020 it's beige. A registration check on the VicRoads website has the beige car registered as a 1997 White Nissan.

Both Conrad Whitlock (July 2019) and Niels Becker (Oct 2019) disappeared in 2019.

 

[Cliff Hardy]

18 months and the best he came up with was RH stealing his firearm and shooting it in thebair I was a little disappointed.

Lynn had to manufacture a murderless death for Carol Clay somehow and the way he chose required Hill to have possession of the weapon. You are clearly disappointed with Lynn's story, suggesting you think you could come up with a better one. Really? Here's your chance...

 

[Cliff Hardy]

I'm not sure why you're fixated on the mirror? What are you querying it's a bit hard to follow.

The mirror was just another piece of damning evidence. That's why Lynn threw it in the fire. If it in any way supported his case he could have kept it.

 

[sapphire blue]

We all use memory recall and that's what all humans (and elephants) are extremely good at. It is actually extremely difficult for a human to recall a lie told, exactly as told in 'a connected string' as it was told, in the 1st instance. IMO from personal and professional experience.

Would you say the same is true for those with NPD? They lie for self gain, and from personal experience they like to double down harder when called on their lies.

 

[JLZ]

South Aussie or someone else, can you tell me where was the guy line?

The Landcruiser is parked with its front to the toilet, tent proper to the left. GL's story is that he and Russell are either side of the bonnet, both holding the gun. Without releasing it, they wrestle themselves to the front of the vehicle, face to face--Russell facing the toilet. GL manages to push the gun around so that Russell's right arm is crossing in front of his body until the gun points behind him--GL must have giant size arms--and Russell is still facing the toilet and his finger is still on the trigger. The bullet turns a corner but never mind that. Where does the guy line go, exactly? Is it from the Landcruiser and if so to which part is it tied, and does it connect to the tent proper or the toilet tent?

 

[changintimes]

The mirror was just another piece of damning evidence. That's why Lynn threw it in the fire. If it in any way supported his case he could have kept it.

Only a piece of it. And there is evidence the remaining parts of the assembly holding the mirror were damaged by fire, I will post photo. If the mirror had been damaged by a slug and CC bodily fluids sprayed the mirror and the slug left damage to the mirror, GL may have a broken a piece off whilst wiping it down. otherwise why break off part of the mirror? how did the mirror assembly become damaged by fire? GL did state and testify didn't he, that he had lit a fire to burn off bodily fluids from spot where CC had died and that raises a possibility the mirror assembly got fire damaged then. IMO

 

[changintimes]

South Aussie or someone else, can you tell me where was the guy line?

The Landcruiser is parked with its front to the toilet, tent proper to the left. GL's story is that he and Russell are either side of the bonnet, both holding the gun. Without releasing it, they wrestle themselves to the front of the vehicle, face to face--Russell facing the toilet. GL manages to push the gun around so that Russell's right arm is crossing in front of his body until the gun points behind him--GL must have giant size arms--and Russell is still facing the toilet and his finger is still on the trigger. The bullet turns a corner but never mind that. Where does the guy line go, exactly? Is it from the Landcruiser and if so to which part is it tied, and does it connect to the tent proper or the toilet tent?

How do you know about RH right arm position and firearm position as you have described?

 

[JLZ]

How do you know about RH right arm position and firearm position as you have described?

How else can he point the gun behind him to the left, with his finger still on the trigger? I am assuming it was a finger of the right hand.