Australia - Siege/Ambush at Remote Property - 6 Dead Including 2 Police/Neighbor - Wieambilla (Queensland)

[jjleroche]

Yes they are all centralised …. (Saving $$$$) Which in my experience is sometimes not helpful when a situation is happening in a small town, away from the call Center location …

I think it would help emergency situations if 000 calls from a similar area went at least to the same regional areas … like in this case, to Toowoomba ….

Maybe the findings of the inquest can help with that ???

JMO

Regarding resources, I'm somewhat puzzled that "black spots" in the area prevented successful use of police radio communications, yet the personal mobile phones used by the two officers who were still alive were used successfully.
I had thought that "black spots" were "black spots", whether radio or mobile phone (or if anything, that police communications could have some enhanced equipment which would provide superior use given that emergencies are part of their job.
Maybe I have that wrong (hopefully). if not, does this mean that police equipment had not been upgraded to the latest/best available.
I realise that resources, or lack thereof, plague government departments, but IMO it would not be appropriate to cut costs when it comes to police communications PARTICULARLY in remote locations.

As note previously, that area sounds like a renegade/desparado's dream if one were inclined to cause major problems (including murder) for police. (JMO)

 

[drsleuth]

Triple-0 operator apologised for delay in calling back wife of man murdered at Wieambilla, inquest hears

Kerry Dare told the triple-0 operator there had been two big bangs and her husband was going to investigate. When the operator called back, Ms Dare's husband was already dead.

www.abc.net.au

Risk assessment​

The inquest also heard from use-of-force expert Senior Sergeant Tracy Louise Bailey.

Senior Sergeant Bailey was asked under cross-examination if the risk assessment would have been different had the constables been told Gareth Train was known to be dangerous, "paranoid and had a profound dislike for police", with a history of accessing unlicensed firearms and an interest in military tactics.

"If all of that information was available to those police, I believe that they would have approached that job much differently and the risk assessment would most likely be at a high-risk," Senior Sergeant Bailey told the inquest.

"Nothing in the information available moved it to a high-risk job, it was just a missing persons job — it seemed very routine."

It was also noted that there were several incidents of gunshots in the 12 months prior to the incident, including one where a bullet landed near a neighbour — but these were not logged.

She told the inquest had these incidents been logged "it may have" changed the risk assessment for attending the property on the day of the shooting.

 

[drsleuth]

Interestingly our terror threat level was raised today to probable from possible.

ASIO lifts terror threat level to 'probable' amid heightened tensions over war in Gaza

Security authorities believe the chances of a violent extremist act are now more likely than when authorities lowered the alert level to "possible" in November 2022.

www.abc.net.au

"More Australians are being radicalised and being radicalised more quickly," Mr Burgess said.

"More Australians are willing to use violence to advance their cause. Politically motivated violence now joins espionage and foreign interference as our principal security concerns."

Australian government raises terrorism threat level to ‘probable’ as officials warn risk spans ideologies

Anthony Albanese announces the government is lifting the terror threat level from ‘possible’ to ‘probable’ but says it does not mean ‘inevitable’

www.theguardian.com

The advisory says the spy agency Asio is “observing the emergence of domestic actors increasingly driven to action by socio-political issues, intersecting with personal grievances”.

“There is an increase in extremism, fuelled by conspiracy theories and anti-authority ideologies,” it states.

“Some actors hold a blend of ideologies, including those that justify acts of violence to influence change.”

 

[SLouTh]

Regarding resources, I'm somewhat puzzled that "black spots" in the area prevented successful use of police radio communications, yet the personal mobile phones used by the two officers who were still alive were used successfully.
I had thought that "black spots" were "black spots", whether radio or mobile phone (or if anything, that police communications could have some enhanced equipment which would provide superior use given that emergencies are part of their job.
Maybe I have that wrong (hopefully). if not, does this mean that police equipment had not been upgraded to the latest/best available.
I realise that resources, or lack thereof, plague government departments, but IMO it would not be appropriate to cut costs when it comes to police communications PARTICULARLY in remote locations.

As note previously, that area sounds like a renegade/desparado's dream if one were inclined to cause major problems (including murder) for police. (JMO)

To be honest, I have also wondered about this …. And glad you have raised this point….
Did officers arriving from bigger centre's (Eg.only, Toowoomba) have higher powered radios ???

As it appears they were in contact with Comms via “radio” during the “rescue operation” … regarding, as an example, the “pink and blue code”

There is this …. (Taken from The Australian)

Constable Brough had been on a call to triple-0 throughout the ordeal, and Snr Constable Miller explained the code phrase of “pink and blue” was chosen to let the young officer know they were there to rescue her.

“Comms (police communications) came back saying, ‘yep she’s in the bush’,” Snr Constable Miller told the inquest.

“I said, ‘well, we need to find her because we’re ready to go, we’re all here’ and what I got back from comms was that she doesn’t believe that we are police.

“The comms operator came up with some code words “pink and blue”. So, l yelled that out a couple of times.

And also this

Snr Constable Gates and several officers pushed into the Trains’ property. He quickly saw the bodies of Constables McCrow and Arnold, but the missing officer was nowhere to be seen.

He began hearing members of the extraction team yelling colours, unaware of what it meant.

The team had to have heard that information via radio if more than one person was calling out “pink and blue” … (team members heard the message simultaneously)
Versus perhaps the just the Team Leader being in contact via a Sat Phone or a Mobile …. (Reasoning being, that they couldn’t all be dialled into Comms at once via phone … )
It appears that “communications” were working at the time of the rescue …. IMO

And yet we have clearly heard, that the initial urgent call from Kirk’s radio did not work…. Nor any of the others …

I sincerely hope that I am incorrect, regarding a possible disparity in radio equipment … but I have wondered …..

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/glock-in-her-hand-and-running-for-her-life-the-moment-hunted-officer-keely-brough-was-saved/news-story/52b872823bb3bb294c1ca1619dc22a1eU

ALL IMO

 

[Marg944]

So the Train’s being big brave warriors, defenders of the cause, were scared of creepy crawlies and bad smells!!!!

A can of Mortein (insect spray), a can of Eucalyptus spray and a can of Tea Tree spray (room air fresheners) seen on their dresser.

Inside the Wieambilla house: Chilling photos reveal killers‘ armoury for ambush

The newly released photos expose the evil intent of the Train family.

7news.com.au

 

[drsleuth]

To be honest, I have also wondered about this …. And glad you have raised this point….
Did officers arriving from bigger centre's (Eg.only, Toowoomba) have higher powered radios ???

As it appears they were in contact with Comms via “radio” during the “rescue operation” … regarding, as an example, the “pink and blue code”

There is this …. (Taken from The Australian)

Constable Brough had been on a call to triple-0 throughout the ordeal, and Snr Constable Miller explained the code phrase of “pink and blue” was chosen to let the young officer know they were there to rescue her.

“Comms (police communications) came back saying, ‘yep she’s in the bush’,” Snr Constable Miller told the inquest.

“I said, ‘well, we need to find her because we’re ready to go, we’re all here’ and what I got back from comms was that she doesn’t believe that we are police.

“The comms operator came up with some code words “pink and blue”. So, l yelled that out a couple of times.

And also this

Snr Constable Gates and several officers pushed into the Trains’ property. He quickly saw the bodies of Constables McCrow and Arnold, but the missing officer was nowhere to be seen.

He began hearing members of the extraction team yelling colours, unaware of what it meant.

The team had to have heard that information via radio if more than one person was calling out “pink and blue” … (team members heard the message simultaneously)
Versus perhaps the just the Team Leader being in contact via a Sat Phone or a Mobile …. (Reasoning being, that they couldn’t all be dialled into Comms at once via phone … )
It appears that “communications” were working at the time of the rescue …. IMO

And yet we have clearly heard, that the initial urgent call from Kirk’s radio did not work…. Nor any of the others …

I sincerely hope that I am incorrect, regarding a possible disparity in radio equipment … but I have wondered …..

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/glock-in-her-hand-and-running-for-her-life-the-moment-hunted-officer-keely-brough-was-saved/news-story/52b872823bb3bb294c1ca1619dc22a1eU

ALL IMO

I think some of the coms getting thru was very patchy & broken, as one of the other lot of officers when they arrived they thought they heard to go to the gate initially thinking other officers were there, but they weren't ( from memory )??

 

[drsleuth]

Terror in Wieambilla: inquest hears of a radio blackspot, booby traps and ‘fatal funnel’ of gunfire

Distressing details emerge about what happened when two young police officers were shot dead in an ambush by the Trains in December 2022

www.theguardian.com

As scores of squad cars descended on Wieambilla, officers found the radios grew more and more unreliable. Phone reception was spotty, for calls and for police reporting equipment.


The two surviving officers at the scene couldn’t make a radio call – but found their phones worked.

snip

Brough was excused from giving evidence at the inquest for mental health reasons.

BBM - thankfully!

 

[drsleuth]

Regarding resources, I'm somewhat puzzled that "black spots" in the area prevented successful use of police radio communications, yet the personal mobile phones used by the two officers who were still alive were used successfully.
I had thought that "black spots" were "black spots", whether radio or mobile phone (or if anything, that police communications could have some enhanced equipment which would provide superior use given that emergencies are part of their job.
Maybe I have that wrong (hopefully). if not, does this mean that police equipment had not been upgraded to the latest/best available.
I realise that resources, or lack thereof, plague government departments, but IMO it would not be appropriate to cut costs when it comes to police communications PARTICULARLY in remote locations.

As note previously, that area sounds like a renegade/desparado's dream if one were inclined to cause major problems (including murder) for police. (JMO)

This article say that Inspector Wayne Rasmussen said “Sometimes the radio channel came in and out, sometimes the phone works, sometimes it didn’t,” .

Paraphrased:

“You have to change channels depending on which area of Tara you’re at,” Constable Loveland said. “If you don’t change the channel over, it won’t work. It’s just static, and won’t receive or transmit.”

Within 10 minutes of driving towards Wieambilla, Dalby constables Matthew Owen and Christopher Sharman also had issues with the Q-LiTE, on which they were meant to receive incident updates.

“It’s on the same connection as your mobile phone,” Constable Owen said. “We would go through long stretches where we wouldn’t have service.”

Constable Sharman told the inquest he misheard a “patchy” police radio call and believed another police crew was already at the Wains Rd property.
The Dalby officers and Constable Loveland were first at the scene.
The three decided to drive down the unsealed road towards danger to help, and had to retreat.

 

[drsleuth]

Heavily armed cops sent to Wieambilla if dangers were known, inquest told

www.9news.com.au

Heavily armed cops would have been sent to Wieambilla if dangers were known, inquest told​

"Specially trained" officers would have been deployed to serve an arrest warrant if police knew the family at the remote property was paranoid and dangerous, a coroner has heard.

Queensland Police training operations co-ordinator Senior Sergeant Tracy Bailey gave evidence today at an inquest before Brisbane Coroners Court into the six deaths that resulted from the shootings on December 12, 2022.

"If all of that information was available to police they would have approached that job much differently ... they would have sought the appropriate response from additional specially trained officers," Sen Sgt Bailey said.
She said in that scenario police in the Wieambilla region would have worked with the Public Safety Response Team, Special Emergency Response Team or regional tactical teams that handled high-risk warrants.

Sen Sgt Bailey said counter-ambush training was being developed for recruits and officers' body armour had been upgraded since the Wieambilla shootings.

 

[drsleuth]

To be honest, I have also wondered about this …. And glad you have raised this point….
Did officers arriving from bigger centre's (Eg.only, Toowoomba) have higher powered radios ???

As it appears they were in contact with Comms via “radio” during the “rescue operation” … regarding, as an example, the “pink and blue code”

There is this …. (Taken from The Australian)

Constable Brough had been on a call to triple-0 throughout the ordeal, and Snr Constable Miller explained the code phrase of “pink and blue” was chosen to let the young officer know they were there to rescue her.

“Comms (police communications) came back saying, ‘yep she’s in the bush’,” Snr Constable Miller told the inquest.

“I said, ‘well, we need to find her because we’re ready to go, we’re all here’ and what I got back from comms was that she doesn’t believe that we are police.

“The comms operator came up with some code words “pink and blue”. So, l yelled that out a couple of times.

And also this

Snr Constable Gates and several officers pushed into the Trains’ property. He quickly saw the bodies of Constables McCrow and Arnold, but the missing officer was nowhere to be seen.

He began hearing members of the extraction team yelling colours, unaware of what it meant.

The team had to have heard that information via radio if more than one person was calling out “pink and blue” … (team members heard the message simultaneously)
Versus perhaps the just the Team Leader being in contact via a Sat Phone or a Mobile …. (Reasoning being, that they couldn’t all be dialled into Comms at once via phone … )
It appears that “communications” were working at the time of the rescue …. IMO

And yet we have clearly heard, that the initial urgent call from Kirk’s radio did not work…. Nor any of the others …

I sincerely hope that I am incorrect, regarding a possible disparity in radio equipment … but I have wondered …..

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/glock-in-her-hand-and-running-for-her-life-the-moment-hunted-officer-keely-brough-was-saved/news-story/52b872823bb3bb294c1ca1619dc22a1eU

ALL IMO

I also wonder if, as SA mentioned earlier, that the Train's had some type of signal blocker etc?

I think it's possible IMO

 

[SLouTh]

I think some of the coms getting thru was very patchy & broken, as one of the other lot of officers when they arrived they thought they heard to go to the gate initially thinking other officers were there, but they weren't ( from memory )??

Yes true, but they were also local “country area” crews …. Rather than those that travelled from the “city” so to speak ….

I just hope that there is equity in communication equipment … and if not it needs to change ASAP …

IMO if they knew it was patchy and black holes they should have all been given a SatPhone to carry on their person in those areas … (however if Qld Policing is anything like Qld Health there is probably one Sat phone per station locked in the safe only for disaster management …. )

JMO

 

[drsleuth]

https://www.news.com.au/national/queensland/courts-law/wieambilla-inquest-police-acted-appropriately-when-attending-the-train-property/news-story/4d6e4e709fcd450c96934170858fe5c1

Wieambilla inquest: police acted appropriately when attending the Train property​

Queensland Police training operations co-ordinator has told the Wieambilla inquest four constables had acted appropriately in the lead up to the fatal ambush.

“Jumping the fence to move forward to the dwelling is appropriate.

“While the flags are present, it just assists the attending police officers in their assessment.

“(Carrying out) an arrest warrant – police would attend those jobs every day.”

Sergeant Bailey said the task as it was known to the four constables at the time would not have required them to take a rifle to the property.

“The use of a rifle needs to meet certain criteria,” she said.

“None of those factors deemed it appropriate given they were attending a missing person job.

“(Taking a rifle) may even escalate the situation … if a sworn officer was coming at them (a civilian) with a rifle, they may react different.”

 

[drsleuth]

Yes true, but they were also local “country area” crews …. Rather than those that travelled from the “city” so to speak ….

I just hope that there is equity in communication equipment … and if not it needs to change ASAP …

IMO if they knew it was patchy and black holes they should have all been given a SatPhone to carry on their person in those areas … (however if Qld Policing is anything like Qld Health there is probably one Sat phone per station locked in the safe only for disaster management …. )

JMO

Yep & it all comes down to the mighty $

 

[SLouTh]

Sen Sgt Bailey said counter-ambush training was being developed for recruits and officers' body armour had been upgraded since the Wieambilla shootings.

Hmmm, I wonder how long “upgraded” body armour had been available (but not provided) before the Wieambilla Shooting???

Sorry, I know I am sounding a bit jaded …. But it is usually how it rolls … don’t fix things until after a major incident has occurred …

IMO

 

[drsleuth]

Hmmm, I wonder how long “upgraded” body armour had been available (but not provided) before the Wieambilla Shooting???

Sorry, I know I am sounding a bit jaded …. But it is usually how it rolls … don’t fix things until after a major incident has occurred …

IMO

I think the body armor has been upgraded since the shootins.

I agree about changing things after the fact & trying to blame someone ( like the poor 000 caller ) who didn't really has a full situational awareness either.

As I tend to say all the time , working in 'government gobs' we are just set up to fail everyday

 

[Rocket333]

I keep wondering how a prepped nutter in a hideout with a rifle misses two of the 4 police walking together towards him? How did the two surviving officers not get hit and how did the brothers miss shooting the officer that bolted from the tree to the car? It was the Train brothers turf and they had the resources, knowledge and advantage. It seems miraculous that anyone escaped.

 

[drsleuth]

I keep wondering how a prepped nutter in a hideout with a rifle misses two of the 4 police walking together towards him? How did the two surviving officers not get hit and how did the brothers miss shooting the officer that bolted from the tree to the car? It was the Train brothers turf and they had the resources, knowledge and advantage. It seems miraculous that anyone escaped.

I have wondered the same, as well as the ones who retrieved the deceased officers.

Very happy they all survived, but will have life long scars thou

 

[jjleroche]

Triple-0 operator apologised for delay in calling back wife of man murdered at Wieambilla, inquest hears

Kerry Dare told the triple-0 operator there had been two big bangs and her husband was going to investigate. When the operator called back, Ms Dare's husband was already dead.

www.abc.net.au

Risk assessment​

The inquest also heard from use-of-force expert Senior Sergeant Tracy Louise Bailey.

Senior Sergeant Bailey was asked under cross-examination if the risk assessment would have been different had the constables been told Gareth Train was known to be dangerous, "paranoid and had a profound dislike for police", with a history of accessing unlicensed firearms and an interest in military tactics.

"If all of that information was available to those police, I believe that they would have approached that job much differently and the risk assessment would most likely be at a high-risk," Senior Sergeant Bailey told the inquest.

"Nothing in the information available moved it to a high-risk job, it was just a missing persons job — it seemed very routine."

It was also noted that there were several incidents of gunshots in the 12 months prior to the incident, including one where a bullet landed near a neighbour — but these were not logged.

She told the inquest had these incidents been logged "it may have" changed the risk assessment for attending the property on the day of the shooting.

It was also noted that there were several incidents of gunshots in the 12 months prior to the incident, including one where a bullet landed near a neighbour — but these were not logged.

I don't mean to be picky, but what the heck does a renegade/desperado/anyone else have to do to get even one of their several gunshot incidents (one possibly attempted murder) from the past 12 months actually logged? Seriously...

Oh, and if these incidents had been logged, "it may (BBM) have changed the risk assessment for attending the property on the day of the shooting".

If two deaths had occurred in say, a non-police environment, where several incidents relating to a specific risk had occurred in the last 12 months which could have caused serious injury/death, but were not logged, having regard to Work Health & Safety legislation, heads woulds definitely roll very quickly.

I do wonder whether complacency was an issue - again, maybe I'm being picky, but lives were lost, and more lives could have been lost- unnecessarily IMO

 

[SLouTh]

I keep wondering how a prepped nutter in a hideout with a rifle misses two of the 4 police walking together towards him? How did the two surviving officers not get hit and how did the brothers miss shooting the officer that bolted from the tree to the car? It was the Train brothers turf and they had the resources, knowledge and advantage. It seems miraculous that anyone escaped.

From reading every source I can find, and piecing bits together….and JMO

I think Kirk and Brough were on the left side …. And Keeley is on the far left, in the body cam footage, having to dodge logs etc on the side of the driveway …. So closer to the scrub …
And the first two officers shot were on the right hand side of the driveway … (looking in from the road) … I think possibly those on the right were more in a direct line of fire to / from the hide out …. (May they RIP)

Kirk was shot at 9 times on his way to escape and was shot in the hip during his escape …. (9 shots over a distance of approx 100meters is absolutely terrifying) so they didn’t actually miss him …

I think Keeley going left, into the scrub, when Kirk yelled “get back” after the first shot, and staying low saved her life ..

Imagine also hearing this threat …..
He (Kirk) heard the two men say: “that was a mistake boys, come out, come out and get on the f---ing ground or you die”.

Especially when they have just shot your colleagues in front of you …


Reference

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/family-of-slain-officers-rachel-mccrow-and-matthew-arnold-speak-for-the-first-time/news-story/a36d1a3eb445535cb7d2002a80b02b09

 

[Rocket333]

From reading every source I can find, and piecing bits together….and JMO

I think Kirk and Brough were on the left side …. And Keeley is on the far left, in the body cam footage, having to dodge logs etc on the side of the driveway …. So closer to the scrub …
And the first two officers shot were on the right hand side of the driveway … (looking in from the road) … I think possibly those on the right were more in a direct line of fire to / from the hide out …. (May they RIP)

Kirk was shot at 9 times on his way to escape and was shot in the hip during his escape …. (9 shots over a distance of approx 100meters is absolutely terrifying) so they didn’t actually miss him …

I think Keeley going left, into the scrub, when Kirk yelled “get back” after the first shot, and staying low saved her life ..

Imagine also hearing this threat …..
He (Kirk) heard the two men say: “that was a mistake boys, come out, come out and get on the f---ing ground or you die”.

Especially when they have just shot your colleagues in front of you …


Reference

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/family-of-slain-officers-rachel-mccrow-and-matthew-arnold-speak-for-the-first-time/news-story/a36d1a3eb445535cb7d2002a80b02b09

From the video of them all jumping the fence, I think you’re right. How Keeley remained hidden from them is just incredible given the grass was low and she was hiding in their “front yard” so to speak. The Trains would’ve also known they couldn’t survive once the cavalry arrived.