Australia Australia - Tumbulgum, NSW, Male 50-70, Tweed River in sleeping bag, Nov'12

[Wolfinator]

Thanks ZaZara. I had a look the comment but it was posted on 3 June 2013. Surely police have followed the Spotlight lead up or they wouldn't still be asking for assistance to identify the fabric?

Maybe reach out to them and ask them if they called crime stoppers and got feedback via FB and if not encourage them to follow up.

Beautiful sleuthing team!


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[ZaZara]

Thanks ZaZara. I had a look the comment but it was posted on 3 June 2013. Surely police have followed the Spotlight lead up or they wouldn't still be asking for assistance to identify the fabric?

They want to identify the bag, don't they? looking for the person who made it. IF this fabric is indeed the same as that of the bag AND if it was sold in ALL of Australia around 2009 -2010, that isn't really helpful.

On top of which I think there is a possibility that he made the liner himself.
Police claim that it was custom made, given the size. Well yes and no. There is no specific reason why a small person would insist on a tight sleeping bag. A lot of fabric is 140 cm wide, you fold that lengthwise and and you simply make a bag of =/- 70 cm width.. However, some fabrics, including indian fabric at Spotlight, happen to have a width of 120 cm.
If you fold that lengthwise, you get a bag that is +/- 60 cm in width, allowing for the seams.

A small man like this person might have chosen this fabric because it was on sale and it would still fit.

 

[Elainera]

Did they ever make the facial reconstruction? In one of the first articles, or maybe it was in that documentary video under an article, I remember the detective saying that would be the next thing they want to do. But that was years ago.

 

[Elainera]

Just wondered if anyone had clues or thoughts as to the indian cotton bag in which an unidentified man's body was found in the Tweed River near Tumbulgum in 2012. Police have just released images of the fabrice and I think there's also a faded label. I just remember all the Websleuths' discussions about the clothing in the Wynarka suitcase before poor little Khandalyce was identified. It was pretty impressive stuff as far as tracing items of clothing and types of material went. Here's one story with pix of teh bag : http://www.news.com.au/national/cri...y/news-story/e59e1a34409a7792ce103be03498be05

I'm quoting the very first post of this thread because it shows the bag.

This picture confuses me. Why is the underwear inside the torn bag? Was this picture taken when the body was still inside? Otherwise it makes no sense?

There is a larger frame of this picture in this article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ed-River-bank-NSW-continues-stump-police.html

 

[Bohemian]

Hahaha!!!

But in all seriousness - What would they look for in the meta data? Im bit unsure how searching habits and ip addresses could connect this one?


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Sorry, I misspoke (mistyped?), Wolfie. I should have said (typed?) 'data', rather than 'metadata'.

btw it seems police feel they have exhausted any leads from database searches (but we've heard that before in the case of Karlie and Khandalyce):

'But missing persons checks and databases have failed to identify the body — although they did locate two other missing people.'

http://www.news.com.au/national/cri...y/news-story/e59e1a34409a7792ce103be03498be05

 

[Bohemian]

Maybe reach out to them and ask them if they called crime stoppers and got feedback via FB and if not encourage them to follow up.

Beautiful sleuthing team!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If DI Cullen calls me, I'll let him know but the NSWPOL FB page is usually well-monitored (although there wasn't a reply to the person's information under the post).

 

[Bohemian]

They want to identify the bag, don't they? looking for the person who made it. IF this fabric is indeed the same as that of the bag AND if it was sold in ALL of Australia around 2009 -2010, that isn't really helpful.

On top of which I think there is a possibility that he made the liner himself.
Police claim that it was custom made, given the size. Well yes and no. There is no specific reason why a small person would insist on a tight sleeping bag. A lot of fabric is 140 cm wide, you fold that lengthwise and and you simply make a bag of =/- 70 cm width.. However, some fabrics, including indian fabric at Spotlight, happen to have a width of 120 cm.
If you fold that lengthwise, you get a bag that is +/- 60 cm in width, allowing for the seams.

A small man like this person might have chosen this fabric because it was on sale and it would still fit.

That's true, ZaZara, they're looking for the person who made (of course, that could be Tumbulgum Man himself) or can identify his 'bag'. I suppose that knowing the name of the store and where outlets are located that sold the fabric, would allow police to concentrate an appeal for further information in those general areas. (In the case of Karlie Pearce-Stevenson and Khandalyce Pearce, a mother and daughter found deceased years apart and in two different Australian states; a handmade quilt, among other items such as a suitcase and the child's dress, led to their identification).

I was thinking about the width of the fabric and that its selection may have been circumstantial, rather than purchased for a custom-fit. The same goes for the length. It may have even been the end of a roll or 'remnant', normally sold as a 'Special' that happened to be fit for purpose. That said, the fabric does remind me of fabric used for furnishings such as cushions, bench seats or even curtains.

 

[Bohemian]

Did they ever make the facial reconstruction? In one of the first articles, or maybe it was in that documentary video under an article, I remember the detective saying that would be the next thing they want to do. But that was years ago.

That's the next possible step in the investigation if police don't get a result from their current appeal for information (according to the latest MSM article):

'Police might resort to using facial reconstruction technology to shed some light, but for now the focus is the bag the body was in.'

'“The bag is our best lead, but facial recognition technology is an option in the future, because we are just not getting any inroads with traditional means, so we may have to look outside the square,” Insp Cullen said.'

http://www.news.com.au/national/cri...y/news-story/e59e1a34409a7792ce103be03498be05

 

[Bohemian]

I'm quoting the very first post of this thread because it shows the bag.

This picture confuses me. Why is the underwear inside the torn bag? Was this picture taken when the body was still inside? Otherwise it makes no sense?

There is a larger frame of this picture in this article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ed-River-bank-NSW-continues-stump-police.html

I'd say it was edited from an existing crime scene photo. If you look closely you can see twigs and leaf litter underneath the bag and a glimpse of what I suspect is one Tumbulgum Man's upper thighs.

Does anyone else notice that the 'bag' seems to have two layers? Could that be the sheet that was supposed to be 'stuffed into the 'bag'? It looks more like he was wrapped in it given the fact it's up so high in the 'bag' and looks so neat.

 

[Wolfinator]

That's the next possible step in the investigation if police don't get a result from their current appeal for information (according to the latest MSM article):

'Police might resort to using facial reconstruction technology to shed some light, but for now the focus is the bag the body was in.'

'“The bag is our best lead, but facial recognition technology is an option in the future, because we are just not getting any inroads with traditional means, so we may have to look outside the square,” Insp Cullen said.'

http://www.news.com.au/national/cri...y/news-story/e59e1a34409a7792ce103be03498be05

I think they'd have a lot more luck with a reconstruction than a bag. If he was a swaggie very few people would have even seen it let alone recognise it. And this isn't the first time they've made an appeal using the bag. Identifying the bag is a long shot I think.... But with so much time past hardly likely that if he was itinerant anyone locally would remember him.

Cold cold case this one.


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[Wolfinator]

(Edited by me - silly post)

The Tumblegum woman has been identified.

SABRINA BREMER

http://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au...m/news-story/35f3a05a08ecdb5c5b48153ba31878fb


Bohemian - I am useless with technology. Are you able to start a thread for Sabrina?

 

[WoollyMummoth]

11th of Nov - 65mm fell at New Italy (about 40km away)

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/mwr/nsw/mwr-nsw-201211.pdf

But Nov 2012 doesn't look to have had any large weather/flooding events at first glance. But that river has pretty strong tidal surges. I'll try and find more localised records to look for local flooding and King tides.

It was certainly warm enough to consider sleeping in your underwear.

It would be good to know how that bag was tied and what with. And I don't think it was a bag. I'm backing the caravan/boat cushion cover raised earlier.

That part of the world is sleepy and populated with a lot of "alternate" lifestyles who like to live off the grid.

I'm thinking he could have been a "live aboard" boatie on the river possibly or even just passing through and the boat and its occupants moved on without him... Could explain the lack of a missing persons report - possibly interstate or foreign if a boat is involved.


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I lived much of my childhood in Tumbulgum. It's the first part of the Tweed to go under in the wet season. I lived over the river and we used to get cut off from the village once or twice a year. There are houseboats about, and lots of waterskiing on the weekends.

 

[symbah]

I'd say it was edited from an existing crime scene photo. If you look closely you can see twigs and leaf litter underneath the bag and a glimpse of what I suspect is one Tumbulgum Man's upper thighs.

Does anyone else notice that the 'bag' seems to have two layers? Could that be the sheet that was supposed to be 'stuffed into the 'bag'? It looks more like he was wrapped in it given the fact it's up so high in the 'bag' and looks so neat.

I noticed this too, that the sheet seems to be a neat layer between the bag & him.
Certainly not what I envisioned when I first read the police's description of the placing of the sheet.

 

[ZaZara]

I'd say it was edited from an existing crime scene photo. If you look closely you can see twigs and leaf litter underneath the bag and a glimpse of what I suspect is one Tumbulgum Man's upper thighs.

Does anyone else notice that the 'bag' seems to have two layers? Could that be the sheet that was supposed to be 'stuffed into the 'bag'? It looks more like he was wrapped in it given the fact it's up so high in the 'bag' and looks so neat.

Ooh ... that is him still in the bag ....

I can't see if the sheet has a seam (on the left hand side) and they do not mention that the sheet was a bag too.
We used to have a sheet in our sleeping bag when we were kids, the sheet was made into a bag too, with a spilt at the top.

I'd say this person looks organized.

The tear on the bag and the sheet is very recent, made with something sharp like a nail, a hook or a pointed branche (?) but the leg was not affected, nor is the underwear. If this happened while the body fell or was already floating in the water, it might tell something about the direction either of the fall or of the current.


Recent news says the Police is considering hi-tech solution to identify body of man at Tumbulgum.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-09/police-consider-facial-recognition-identify-body-tweed/7703834

I suppose the budget has something to do with the floundering decision to go forward.
However, I think it is the best option.
If this man was a hiker, if he was sleeping rough, or if he was living on his own, who would have seen his underwear or his sleeping bag? Very few people, if anyone at all. The ones who did know him may not even have been aware that he had false teeth.
(I suppose man without teeth would have been noticed far more easily, but I know little about Australia, perhaps it is common Aussie practice?)

If the man did not make his own liner, then where did it come from? He may have found it, bought it in a charity shop,or if he had had it made, the person who took the order may not have been the person who did the sewing and neither may have access to the internet. The fabric itself may be much older than 2010, someone gave away a box full of fabric etcetera etcetera. The reasons why no one is coming forward about the bag are almost endless.

 

[Elainera]

I'd say it was edited from an existing crime scene photo. If you look closely you can see twigs and leaf litter underneath the bag and a glimpse of what I suspect is one Tumbulgum Man's upper thighs.

Does anyone else notice that the 'bag' seems to have two layers? Could that be the sheet that was supposed to be 'stuffed into the 'bag'? It looks more like he was wrapped in it given the fact it's up so high in the 'bag' and looks so neat.

Thank you Bohemian. Yes it makes most sense that he was in fact still inside the bag when that photo was taken.

Yes I noticed the second sheet inside the bag. I wonder why there's no photo of it separately? Is it so common that they don't think it would generate any leads? (Contrary to the bag itself.) Or is the second photo in the Daily Mail article I linked earlier in fact that inner sheet?

Sorry for all the questions, somehow these photos confuse me! :blushing:

What struck me as odd as well is, that the underwear looks so clean and neat - I would not expect it to look like that after being in the water for days or even weeks. When I saw the picture of the underwear only, I had assumed it had been cleaned, but now I realize this was probably not the case. It really looked fresh and clean and in fact like new when they found him! Do you find that odd as well? I wonder, was he ever in the water, or was he dumped there where they found him, on the banks?

That's the next possible step in the investigation if police don't get a result from their current appeal for information (according to the latest MSM article):

'Police might resort to using facial reconstruction technology to shed some light, but for now the focus is the bag the body was in.'

'“The bag is our best lead, but facial recognition technology is an option in the future, because we are just not getting any inroads with traditional means, so we may have to look outside the square,” Insp Cullen said.'

http://www.news.com.au/national/cri...y/news-story/e59e1a34409a7792ce103be03498be05

Thank you for finding that! I was too tired last night to hunt for the exact quote and date when it was said. Well, hopefully they will assign some resources to get this reconstruction done. Four years in and no viable leads on the bag, I think it's time!

 

[Bohemian]

Just watching 'Catching History's Criminals: The Forensic Story' on 9GEM (Australia):

https://www.9now.com.au/

There was a segment on isotopic hair analysis. I couldn't find a transcript of the episode but I did a search and found this, which should explain the process:

Tracking Movements With Isotopes
Jim Dawson
National Institutes of Justice (NIJ) Journal No 276
December 2015

http://nij.gov/journals/276/Pages/tracking-movements-with-isotopes.aspx

I wonder if our forensic laboratories have the ability to perform these analyses (I should think so) or if they can in Tumbulgum Man's particular circumstances; given his remains were found in water?

Also, I know the analysis of Pb (lead) was also mentioned in the progtamme.

 

[Bohemian]

(Edited by me - silly post)

The Tumblegum woman has been identified.

SABRINA BREMER

http://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au...m/news-story/35f3a05a08ecdb5c5b48153ba31878fb

Bohemian - I am useless with technology. Are you able to start a thread for Sabrina?

Done:

Australia - Dulguigan, NSW, burnt remains in paddock, 18 Aug 2016 - Sabrina Bremer
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...remains-in-paddock-18-Aug-2016-Sabrina-Bremer

 

[ZaZara]

Just watching 'Catching History's Criminals: The Forensic Story' on 9GEM (Australia):

https://www.9now.com.au/

There was a segment on isotopic hair analysis. I couldn't find a transcript of the episode but I did a search and found this, which should explain the process:

Tracking Movements With Isotopes
Jim Dawson
National Institutes of Justice (NIJ) Journal No 276
December 2015

http://nij.gov/journals/276/Pages/tracking-movements-with-isotopes.aspx

I wonder if our forensic laboratories have the ability to perform these analyses (I should think so) or if they can in Tumbulgum Man's particular circumstances; given his remains were found in water?

Also, I know the analysis of Pb (lead) was also mentioned in the progtamme.

Youi cannot watch this if you are outside Australia
Such a pity!
I found some videos on youtube though. The one about isotopes was not among them (?) but I viewed a few others and they are really interesting. For instance, they are able to make a facial reconstruction of sorts based on DNA. Results are not 100% but they are getting better at it.
https://youtu.be/hnLIgT-ukQg starting around 50 minutes

Did the Tumbulgum police involve any scientists, other than the doctor who performed the autopsy, I wonder?

 

[ZaZara]

:bump: :bump: :bump:

Any news? Progress? Testing? Results?

 

[Bohemian]

:bump: :bump: :bump:

Any news? Progress? Testing? Results?

Nothing AFAIK.