Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sep 2014 - #65

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@SouthAussie

Quote
William’s story starts 10 years ago, when his father met a girl. In 2010, they had a daughter. Three months later, that child — a girl called Lindsay in court documents — was taken into state care. What was the issue?

Violence. It wasn’t directed at the child. Lindsay’s mother went to a party. It got out of hand. Police got called. She spat at police. She was aggressive. She has mental health problems, and is addicted to drugs. She lashed out, in a way that made officers feel unsafe.

They decided Lindsay was “at risk of harm” — that’s a formal categorisation — and handed her to the NSW Department of Family and Community Services ...........

End quote

Thanks for the link. To me it seems unusual that a wanted child who was exposed to psychological harm stayed in care long term imo. It's technically hard to prove even though it's obviously not good for the child.

Even the way the first child was taken presumably while at home being babysat while the mother was out. That one incident isn't enough to remove a child. There must be more to it. imo.

@winterberry

I find it's often a statement of fact that people have addiction issues and mental health issues. The stigma around them makes it sound pejorative. Many people with similar issues are good hearted and are able to gather the strength to address their issues. They're often vulnerable people themselves. I believe the b mother has owned her past publically now imo? She is obviously stable enough now and has her other kids in her care imo.

I really find it very unusual her kids weren't returned to her.
 
@SouthAussie

I really find it very unusual her kids weren't returned to her.

I agree, considering the number of cases I have seen where children were not removed when they should have been and were left in unsafe home due to the well-known reluctance of authorities to remove children these days.
Also, how could an adoption happen without the knowledge or consent of the BM and BF? Again, it is a very onerous process that always presumes that children are better off with their biological parents.

From NSW adoption rules....
The consent of birth parents and the Minister is required for children:

  • under 12 years of age
  • aged between 12 and 18 who have been in the care of the prospective adoptive parents for less than two years
  • aged between 12 and 18 who are deemed not have sufficient maturity to give consent.
The Supreme Court can make orders dispensing with the consent of a child’s birth parents in certain circumstances such as when the birth parent cannot be found or is mentally incapable of giving consent. The court can also make an order to dispense with parental consent when it believes it is in the best interests of the child.
 
I really find it very unusual her kids weren't returned to her.

IIRC BM said that she was going to apply to get the children back, when they heard the adoption process was happening. Perhaps in her 60 Minutes interview?

I guess you have to apply first. They don't just say that you are now ready for your children to be returned.

imo
 
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And this new theory being investigated came from new evidence/information received or uncovered in the investigation? Such a specific theory

And this new theory being investigated came from new evidence/information received or uncovered in the investigation? Such a specific theory IMO

Why now and why this area after so many years?
Very few members of the force's top brass can answer this — they fear doing so could compromise any chance of a breakthrough.

The theory being explored is that William Tyrrell died after falling from the balcony of the home on September 12, 2014.

Police believe his foster grandmother's car — which is undergoing forensic examination — could have been used to dispose of his body off Batar Creek Road and Cobb and Co Road.


After 13 days of searching for William Tyrrell, authorities have uncovered more questions

I might be mis understanding but why is this being described as " A new theory " ?

I was under the impression it was established that GJ flagged this theory ?
 
""Imo the so-called hessian discovered at the search site is more likely to be remnants of green plastic hessian-like garden disposal bags. From experience normal fabric hessian disintegrates rapidly once wet and in contact with soil for an extended period of time.

From experience the bags do not last very long and the structure weakens holes develop and edges fray.""

New member here and from reading the last week's events and the change in focus of the investigation I have some questions I hope that some you know the answers to?
  1. There seems to be new reports of a women driving acting suspiciously from a few different sources, but she is referred to as "plump blonde woman" and "large blond woman". I struggle to see anything there that resembles FFC.
  2. Re the scraps of bags they are picking up. It is likely they are remnants of horse feed bags, given the location next to a place where there is obviously a lot of horses. No matter how careful people are with them, the odd one ends up being blown away and they disintegrate quickly. So I would expect to find that there. Horse people also use the garden bags to bag manure.
  3. I see it as normal that she would have jumped in a car to scan and cover more ground in a shorter time. As we are only talking about a 2 km round trip, this would not have taken much time. And it seems logical to check that he hadn't wandered down the road. In a car she could catch up to him if he was down there, as opposed to running on foot. And where she said she turned around is really the first available turn-around point.
  4. Is it just me, or do I detect an echo of the Lindy Chamberlain case here.? Lindy was tried and convicted mostly because people thought she was not emotional enough.

<modsnip> From various media resources and media conferences I personally get the impression the search dig sites are included because NSWPOL/Coroner have gleaned specific information during the recent Inquest tranches regarding specific locations, one of which includes 158 Batar Creek Rd, the former horse riding school for the disabled. IMO

How long would it take a 3yo with no experience walking down Benaroon Drive since his family's visit there in February 2014 to attend the funeral of the FFC's father 7 months prior to the day William vanished, then to wander down Batar Creek Road (by himself and there is no evidence he had previously walked that road) to the corner of Cobb and Co Road? I posted a detailed satellite image map showing walking distances from 48 Benaroon Drive to the corner of Batar Creek Road, and to the corner of Cobb and Co Road in thread 57. The total distance is very close to 1100 metres.

Using my 'best friend' Mr Google, an adult would take approx 10 to 12 minutes to walk 1000 metres so about 12-13 minutes to walk 1100 metres. In my mind an adult walks just below 1 metre per stride (according to height and length of legs of the adult). A 3yo child's stride is likely to be about 1/3rd of the length of an adult's stride. Therefore to walk approximately 1100 metres it would take about 39 minutes.
upload_2021-11-28_11-42-29.png

My experience with observing very young children at around 3yo walking, they don't walk straight to an point, they wander if they are not accompanied directly by an adult holding their hand. IMO a 3yo child would get extremely tired walking that distance which would be the equivalent of walking 3300 metres at the child's stride length.

Anyone got a 3yo male child to have a go at measuring distance vs time taken - child unrestrained but monitored very closely? Doesn't need to be done on a road, a park area would suffice with distance measured.

In my mind this 39 minutes throws out the timing of William vanishing which is said by the FFC in the 000 call. A link to that call has been provided by me in the Media 'no discussion' thread on page 7.
 
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@SouthAussie


I find it's often a statement of fact that people have addiction issues and mental health issues. The stigma around them makes it sound pejorative. Many people with similar issues are good hearted and are able to gather the strength to address their issues. They're often vulnerable people themselves. I believe the b mother has owned her past publically now imo? She is obviously stable enough now and has her other kids in her care imo.

I really find it very unusual her kids weren't returned to her.
sbmff

William didn't go missing under BMs watch.

She has overcome and moved past her relationship with BF and throwing shade her way doesn't change the fact she loved William and never wanted him removed and was doing everything in her power to get him and his sister back.
Is she perfect?....hell no.
But does she deserve respect for pulling her self up and trying harder.
Yes.

What happened and how the kids came to be in foster care has nothing to do with Williams disappearance that has been established.

moo
 
Forensic anthropologist Penny McCardle hobbles around in a moon boot, but it doesn't stop her from scouring the bush for evidence, often helped by "Wags"
He is one of only two cadaver dogs in the state and is from the town of Inverell, close to the Queensland border.

Grave archaeologist Tony Lowe and hydrologist John Olley are also on deck.

Mr Olley was confronted by a brown snake last week.

He picked it up with a shovel, before carefully placing the deadly creature in another area of the bush, much to the shock of other officers.
After 13 days of searching for William Tyrrell, authorities have uncovered more questions
 
IIRC BM said that she was going to apply to get the children back when they heard the adoption process was happening. Perhaps in her 60 Minutes interview?

I guess you have to apply first. They don't just say that you are now ready for your children to be returned.

imo

I'm in Victoria but that doesn't sound exactly correct to me. If the department gave them that impression and they don't have professionals in their social network, that would be manipulative imo. The process seems to be to work with the department, they would only need to be willing to engage and have a little support if they don't have a good education. Imo. Really, to switch to the salvos for less visits and a long term placement should have required much more well, fuss, for the department. Imo.
 
sbmff

William didn't go missing under BMs watch.

She has overcome and moved past her relationship with BF and throwing shade her way doesn't change the fact she loved William and never wanted him removed and was doing everything in her power to get him and his sister back.
Is she perfect?....hell no.
But does she deserve respect for pulling her self up and trying harder.
Yes.

What happened and how the kids came to be in foster care has nothing to do with Williams disappearance that has been established.

moo

My focus on this aspect has to do with the foster family in that the speculation is that they were trying to adopt and have somehow been influencing the department, which points to extreme underlying issues kind of thing imo. Given that in terrible cases sometimes very strange far reaching things can sometimes turn out to be true imo, and given that the presumed good character of FFC and MFC is now under question imo. Let me know if I am completely off topic?
 
sbmff

William didn't go missing under BMs watch.

She has overcome and moved past her relationship with BF and throwing shade her way doesn't change the fact she loved William and never wanted him removed and was doing everything in her power to get him and his sister back.
Is she perfect?....hell no.
But does she deserve respect for pulling her self up and trying harder.
Yes.

What happened and how the kids came to be in foster care has nothing to do with Williams disappearance that has been established.

moo

IMO I am sure the bio mum has sought and received expert medical attention to cope with any prevous addiction issues and her grief of loosing custody of William and his sister, and the subsequent disappearance of William. IMO one could never recover from loosing custody of your children and the unexplained disappearance of one of those children, and mistreatment of the other child as evidence by the AVO application and upcoming prosecution of the (alleged) assault of the other child. When I see vision of the biological mother, I just want to take hold of her and give her the biggest and warmest hug!
 
IMO I am sure the bio mum has sought and received expert medical attention to cope with any prevous addiction issues and her grief of loosing custody of William and his sister, and the subsequent disappearance of William. IMO one could never recover from loosing custody of your children and the unexplained disappearance of one of those children, and mistreatment of the other child as evidence by the AVO application and upcoming prosecution of the (alleged) assault of the other child. When I see vision of the biological mother, I just want to take hold of her and give her the biggest and warmest hug!
Me too sniff.:(

Her Mel Doyle interview is the saddest thing I have seen in all relation to Williams disappearance.

I think about her often. Hope she is doing well.
 
It is worth reading the detail in this link that had headling

Royal commission witness says she's been intimidated by Salvation Army for reporting confessed child sex abuser


https://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2014/s3978734.htm

and when Salvation Army received their accreditation from FACS in 2012 - after when William (and his sister) entered the out of home care (OOHC) and entered into the care of the fosters.

Does anyone know what agency was involved at the time the children entered OOHC with the fosters?

<modsnip>
typo fixed
 
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I have now had the opportunity to listen to the press conference and for the life of me cannot hear anything that suggests that DCS Bennett said "they have never nominated any particular person of interest." as you stated in your message that I initially replied to.
Darren Bennet said it in the update that they've never nominated any particular person of interest.
At 5:39 in the video of the police update you referenced a member of the public/media asks
" and is the foster mother still the only person of interest in this case and if nothing of significance is found where does that lead her in orders" to which Bennet replies " it leaves the investigation in the hands.of the Coroner..We don't know what happened to William Tyrrell as we stand here now and we're trying to find out". The member of the public/media asks "is she the only person of interest still?" Darren Bennet replies "we've never nominated any particular person of interest and we'll just continue to investigate".
 
My focus on this aspect has to do with the foster family in that the speculation is that they were trying to adopt and have somehow been influencing the department, which points to extreme underlying issues kind of thing imo. Given that in terrible cases sometimes very strange far reaching things can sometimes turn out to be true imo, and given that the presumed good character of FFC and MFC is now under question imo. Let me know if I am completely off topic?
I think you are verbalizing very interesting points Naobh.

It is alarming when the bios NEVER surrendered any of their kids that they are 'handpicked' for permenant adoption.

Things that make you go hmmm. For sure.

moo
 
IIRC BM said that she was going to apply to get the children back, when they heard the adoption process was happening. Perhaps in her 60 Minutes interview?

I guess you have to apply first. They don't just say that you are now ready for your children to be returned.

imo

Do you have a link and time stamp/ transcript / for this ? Went looking but couldn’t find the interview.
 
I have found some really interesting research from 2017 (so, it kind of fits with bio parents removal of WT and LT in 2014) - ‘No voice, no opinion, nothing’: Parent experiences when children are removed and placed in care'. I like this research as it is NSW-centric (and outlines the child safety processes in NSW at that time).

This research investigated the perspectives and experiences of parents in the Hunter Valley, New South Wales, who had their children removed and placed in out of home care (OOHC) in the last five years. It was prompted by concerns that parents were generally not active participants in child protection processes and had limited involvement in the development of recent reforms to legislation, policy and practice in child protection, OOHC, and adoption in New South Wales. The idea for the research was initiated in late 2014 after a group of practitioners, educators and parents with children in care established Family Inclusion Strategies in the Hunter (FISH), to explore family inclusion as a pathway to improved outcomes for vulnerable children.

The research team undertook the research with the recognition that government child protection services, particularly government and non-government OOHC service providers, make efforts to support parents’ participation in services and processes. It proceeded on the basis that past research had shown that despite those efforts, parents often felt disempowered and marginalised. There have been a raft of reforms to the child protection legislation, the Children and Young Persons (Care and Protection) Act 1998 (the Act) and services in New South Wales since the publication of the Wood Report of the Special Inquiry into Child Protection in New South Wales in 2008.10 Most recently, in 2014, reforms to the Act focused on means to improve permanency planning for the long-term care of children within strict time frames: this has implications for the ability of some parents to maintain the parental responsibility for their children.

https://www.lwb.org.au/assets/Parent-perspectives-OOHC-Final-Report-Feb-2017.pdf
 
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I think you are verbalizing very interesting points Naobh.

It is alarming when the bios NEVER surrendered any of their kids that they are 'handpicked' for permenant adoption.

Things that make you go hmmm. For sure.

moo

The only person that I have seen say anything about "handpicked" is an unqualified person. A person who does not work for FaCS. It appears to be a theory.

AFAIK reporters are not given any kind of access to Family Court documents .. they can't even pay for them.

NSW had recently brought in an adoption for foster children rule that said after a year fostered children could be placed in adoption if it offered them a more secure future (or words to that effect). I believe another member has posted a link not very long ago.

William Tyrrell’s doomed life
 
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Going back to thread 64, post 832:
@iiiii's - you said there were differences in the statements by FFC and AMS*. It was reported they disagreed about the two parked cars (FFC said they were there and AMS said they weren't). But were there any other differences too? Thank you.

*AMS, the neighbour down the hill and across the road in Benaroon Drive who was reportedly the first neighbour to help FFC search for William.
Mystery deepens over sighting of unusual cars spotted on William Tyrrell's street the same day the toddler disappeared, Daily Mail Australia, 26 March 2019
 
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