Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sep 2014 - #71

[SouthAussie]

I found reading the entire Australian article quite shocking and filled me with sadness about the entire situation …. And at the same time wondering how did it get to that before something was done about it? How did no one see the warning signs???

All of the allegations are awful, but physically kicking a child is a very low act imo … it is deplorable behaviour …. Something that I would associate with “thugs in a street brawl” … JMO

It’s a sad world out there and seems to be getting worse by the day …. Is there no end to human depravity????

So I guess you are correct and “nothing should surprise me“ these days, but it does ….

imo

And, according to the magistrate, this is on the lower end of the scale. She sees cases like this all of the time.


However Magistrate Denes said the case was not dissimilar to dozens of others she had heard.

“Leaving aside the connection to other matters, every court in New South Wales hears matters not dissimilar to the complaint raised here,” she said.

“In fact, last week on Tuesday I dealt with a far more serious allegation involving a five-year-old child, and no one’s very interested in that.

“What’s the public interest, other than the dare I say clickbait issue of the relationship? Because these allegations are not the most serious the criminal courts see, by any stretch.”

https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/courts-law/william-tyrrells-foster-parents-to-face-court-over-assault-charge-relating-to-a-different-child/news-story/b8fefe450ef6a3b00110e9a2e83b0119

 

[Awakening]

I can't actually read the whole article but it does say

Tyrrell foster parents’ abuse claims​

Police will allege in court the foster mother of missing William Tyrrell kicked a child and suggested if the child was to defecate on the floor, she would rub the child’s face in it.

This is awful. That poor child. I don't know how old the child was when this occurred but presumably 12 or under and presumably a foster child. It's not unusual for a child with a trauma history or developmental delays to have incontinence issues.

Not that this makes it okay but I thought the alleged assault might have been something like slapping the child because the child called her FM a b**** or was trying to leave and was physically restrained and left a bruise. Still not okay.

But this seems worse. It seems more deliberate and calculated as opposed to a parent in deep distress lashing out.

And to kick a child? And allegedly hard enough to cause a bruise? Nope. No excuse.

I have PTSD and a 13 year old and 10 year old who have said and done some provocative things when they are angry and I'm far from a perfect parent and I have never and would never physically harm them or threaten to rub their faces in excrement.

I think I can feel myself falling off the fence.

What an awful horrible sad situation this whole case is.

 

[SLouTh]

And, according to the magistrate, this is on the lower end of the scale. She sees cases like this all of the time.


However Magistrate Denes said the case was not dissimilar to dozens of others she had heard.

“Leaving aside the connection to other matters, every court in New South Wales hears matters not dissimilar to the complaint raised here,” she said.

“In fact, last week on Tuesday I dealt with a far more serious allegation involving a five-year-old child, and no one’s very interested in that.

“What’s the public interest, other than the dare I say clickbait issue of the relationship? Because these allegations are not the most serious the criminal courts see, by any stretch.”

https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/courts-law/william-tyrrells-foster-parents-to-face-court-over-assault-charge-relating-to-a-different-child/news-story/b8fefe450ef6a3b00110e9a2e83b0119

And yet in Queensland, very recently…

A Gold Coast woman has lost custody of her children and been convicted of assault after smacking her son on the bottom with a spoon

The attack caused bruising on his body, the court was told

Mum’s lawyer speaks after she lost custody of son for smacking him with spoon

The lawyer of a Queensland woman who lost custody of her child for hitting him with a wooden spoon has spoken outside court - revealing what her next move will be.

7news.com.au

 

[Curiouskatz11]

Both of them involved in the alleged incident too. You’d hope one would restrain the other from such behaviour, but this doesn’t appear to have been the case. Very disturbing.

 

[SouthAussie]

And yet in Queensland, very recently…

A Gold Coast woman has lost custody of her children and been convicted of assault after smacking her son on the bottom with a spoon

The attack caused bruising on his body, the court was told

Mum’s lawyer speaks after she lost custody of son for smacking him with spoon

The lawyer of a Queensland woman who lost custody of her child for hitting him with a wooden spoon has spoken outside court - revealing what her next move will be.

7news.com.au

Yes, I remember that article. I think I posted it here a couple of weeks back.

The point of my post was you saying "It’s a sad world out there and seems to be getting worse by the day …. Is there no end to human depravity????" - because as this is at the lower end of the scale, there must be some pretty horrible stuff going on with the children that we don't hear about.

 

[Chrissy74]

Sorry ... I need to make a correction. Nowhere in The Australian article does it say that the involved child is William's sister. The alleged victim is described as the child or the girl.

That was completely my own presumption and is not stated in The Australian article.

(I have now done a prefacing edit to my paraphrased post)

Sorry ... I need to make a correction. Nowhere in The Australian article does it say that the involved child is William's sister. The alleged victim is described as the child or the girl.

That was completely my own presumption and is not stated in The Australian article.

(I have now done a prefacing edit to my paraphrased post)

 

[T-dawg420]

i cannot read the article as it’s paywalled, so I’m going from others descriptions and reading the small paragraph that’s free, it is alarming Imo.

Without wanting to join a pile on as these are just allegations at this stage, innocent until proven guilty right? But for me, if it did happen as described then what it shows me is there is a potential for a possible act of rage, for whatever reason, to potentially cause fatal injuries to a small child, such as a 3 year old.

kicking a child, threatening to rub their nose in excrement etc, to me shows a complete loss of control in a situation. Like you wouldn’t do that do an animal, let alone a human being right?

We do live in a society where the way to discipline has changed dramatically. I was hit plenty of times with a wooden spoon and a belt as a child, and back then it was considered the norm, and today I don’t think it is. I like to be brave and say it didn’t effect me, however it did. It taught me that violence was a way to solve issues, it taught me that if you want to control a situation, then violence is acceptable, which to me now as an adult it certainly isnt acceptable. For example, when I tried to use violence against my brothers, I found it hard to accept it wasn’t ok for me but ok for my parents to use agains us if that makes sense? I can’t go into work and belt someone that I disagree with, even if they call me names right or don’t listen to instructions etc? So why should it be acceptable to do this to a child?

People will try and minimise the actions, for a plethora of reasons, and that’s their choice. But to me, again if the Allegations are proven correct, it shows the capacity for the person who took those actions to be capable of causing injuries, possible severe and fatal, in an act of uncontrolled rage imo.

 

[Chrissy74]

And, according to the magistrate, this is on the lower end of the scale. She sees cases like this all of the time.


However Magistrate Denes said the case was not dissimilar to dozens of others she had heard.

“Leaving aside the connection to other matters, every court in New South Wales hears matters not dissimilar to the complaint raised here,” she said.





“In fact, last week on Tuesday I dealt with a far more serious allegation involving a five-year-old child, and no one’s very interested in that.

“What’s the public interest, other than the dare I say clickbait issue of the relationship? Because these allegations are not the most serious the criminal courts see, by any stretch.”

https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/courts-law/william-tyrrells-foster-parents-to-face-court-over-assault-charge-relating-to-a-different-child/news-story/b8fefe450ef6a3b00110e9a2e83b0119

And, according to the magistrate, this is on the lower end of the scale. She sees cases like this all of the time.


However Magistrate Denes said the case was not dissimilar to dozens of others she had heard.

“Leaving aside the connection to other matters, every court in New South Wales hears matters not dissimilar to the complaint raised here,” she said.

“In fact, last week on Tuesday I dealt with a far more serious allegation involving a five-year-old child, and no one’s very interested in that.

“What’s the public interest, other than the dare I say clickbait issue of the relationship? Because these allegations are not the most serious the criminal courts see, by any stretch.”

https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/courts-law/william-tyrrells-foster-parents-to-face-court-over-assault-charge-relating-to-a-different-child/news-story/b8fefe450ef6a3b00110e9a2e83b0119

Yes, I remember that article. I think I posted it here a couple of weeks back.

The point of my post was you saying "It’s a sad world out there and seems to be getting worse by the day …. Is there no end to human depravity????" - because as this is at the lower end of the scale, there must be some pretty horrible stuff going on with the children that we don't hear about.

Perhaps it can be said that this type of behaviour from the FP is on the lower end of the scale and stuff like this happens all the time but when put into context of the bigger picture and the fact that a 3yo child went missing while in their care, I don’t think this is a situation that should be down played.

 

[Chrissy74]

i cannot read the article as it’s paywalled, so I’m going from others descriptions and reading the small paragraph that’s free, it is alarming Imo.

Without wanting to join a pile on as these are just allegations at this stage, innocent until proven guilty right? But for me, if it did happen as described then what it shows me is there is a potential for a possible act of rage, for whatever reason, to potentially cause fatal injuries to a small child, such as a 3 year old.

kicking a child, threatening to rub their nose in excrement etc, to me shows a complete loss of control in a situation. Like you wouldn’t do that do an animal, let alone a human being right?

We do live in a society where the way to discipline has changed dramatically. I was hit plenty of times with a wooden spoon and a belt as a child, and back then it was considered the norm, and today I don’t think it is. I like to be brave and say it didn’t effect me, however it did. It taught me that violence was a way to solve issues, it taught me that if you want to control a situation, then violence is acceptable, which to me now as an adult it certainly isnt acceptable. For example, when I tried to use violence against my brothers, I found it hard to accept it wasn’t ok for me but ok for my parents to use agains us if that makes sense? I can’t go into work and belt someone that I disagree with, even if they call me names right or don’t listen to instructions etc? So why should it be acceptable to do this to a child?

People will try and minimise the actions, for a plethora of reasons, and that’s their choice. But to me, again if the Allegations are proven correct, it shows the capacity for the person who took those actions to be capable of causing injuries, possible severe and fatal, in an act of uncontrolled rage imo.

Whole heartedly Agree T-dawg420

 

[SLouTh]

Another point to note from the article, is about the upcoming court date in June…..

It is only a “hearing“ that is listed in Parramatta Local Court on June 30 to determine whether SD’s (court pseudonym for FM) charges will be heard under the mental health act…..

The assault proceedings against JS (court pseudonym for FF) have been listed for hearing on January 16 next year.

If SD’s application to have the charges dealt with under the Mental Health Act is unsuccessful she will join the January hearing.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/william-tyrrell-foster-parents-face-explosive-allegations-of-abuse/news-story/406658f89db36d76ca0a289f14ef4147

 

[JLZ]

Such a sad and dire situation for the the child….You never know what goes on behind closed doors…. IMO

From this type of parental behaviour one could suggest that a “fit of rage“ type incident is possible in William’s case….

Good on the media for challenging the suppression orders and finally getting somewhere!

imo

BBM. I think I'd distinguish between repeated/sustained abuse of an older child and the capacity to be violent to a toddler.

 

[SouthAussie]

Perhaps it can be said that this type of behaviour from the FP is on the lower end of the scale and stuff like this happens all the time but when put into context of the bigger picture and the fact that a 3yo child went missing while in their care, I don’t think this is a situation that should be down played.

Well, the magistrate did downplay it for some reason. Seemingly due to the extent of violence that she sees. That's all.

 

[SouthAussie]

BBM. I think I'd distinguish between repeated/sustained abuse of an older child and the capacity to be violent to a toddler.

I was thinking the same. There is a huge difference between the problematic behaviour of a pre-teen, and the problematic behaviour of a 3 year old. When 3 year olds act out, you pick them up and take them to where they need to be.

 

[SLouTh]

BBM. I think I'd distinguish between repeated/sustained abuse of an older child and the capacity to be violent to a toddler.

I was thinking along the lines of a “snap” behaviour…. Losing control for an instant, rather than prolonged sustained abuse ….. but with possible dire consequences……????? Would a history of such “possible snaps “ in loss of control predispose one to longer more sustained periods as you describe it???

I don’t want this to be the answer for William, that his demise was from someone who was to love and care for him and who he would have had trust in ….but we need to consider the possibility…..

imo

 

[Chrissy74]

Well, the magistrate did downplay it for some reason. Seemingly due to the extent of violence that she sees. That's all.

No doubt magistrates who see and hear cases like this in their courtrooms day in and day out would become somewhat desensitised .

 

[bearbear]

Yes, just reading about that. I wonder what the heck brought on that situation.
Why the sister presumably said she would defacate on the floor. (Because a person doesn't say that if you do that you will get your nose rubbed in it, unless it has been threatened.)

Hopefully the sister has been moved on to BGM's house, and BGM can cope with the "problematic behaviour". She may have some experience in how to deal with it. imo

maybe the child didnt threaten she would do that, they could have been arguing about william or a memory of william and his nappy situation drama on that morning?

 

[SouthAussie]

I was thinking along the lines of a “snap” behaviour…. Losing control for an instant, rather than prolonged sustained abuse ….. but with possible dire consequences……????? Would a history of such “possible snaps “ in loss of control predispose one to longer more sustained periods as you describe it???

I don’t want this to be the answer for William, that his demise was from someone who was to love and care for him and who he would have had trust in ….but we need to consider the possibility…..

imo

Which leads us back to the same old question ... how long has FM had mental difficulties?

If they are more recent they could lead to a (more recent) loss of control. If they have been lifelong or since early adulthood, then they would need to be considered by the Coroner when looking at the whole picture.

imo

 

[SLouTh]

Another point to note from the article, is about the upcoming court date in June…..

It is only a “hearing“ that is listed in Parramatta Local Court on June 30 to determine whether SD’s (court pseudonym for FM) charges will be heard under the mental health act…..

The assault proceedings against JS (court pseudonym for FF) have been listed for hearing on January 16 next year.

If SD’s application to have the charges dealt with under the Mental Health Act is unsuccessful she will join the January hearing.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/william-tyrrell-foster-parents-face-explosive-allegations-of-abuse/news-story/406658f89db36d76ca0a289f14ef4147

The amount of detail in the report alleged by Police, that is mentioned in this article, does make me wonder if the Foster’s house was under Police surveillance at the time???

I would also like to know the date of this incident, and the dates that FM appeared at the NSWCC, and if there is any correlation between the two incidents???

JMO

 

[Awakening]

I was thinking the same. There is a huge difference between the problematic behaviour of a pre-teen, and the problematic behaviour of a 3 year old. When 3 year olds act out, you pick them up and take them to where they need to be.

But we don't know that the child had any problematic behaviour. This is the defence of a person who has been accused of abuse.

But even if the child did have problematic behaviour I think the allegations if proven to be true do indicate that the FM possibly has anger issues and inability to appropriately manage a child with difficult behaviours.

And I think, if true, it's likely that this has always been her style of parenting. It goes towards a pattern of behaviour IMO, as opposed to a one off heated exchange.

The magistrates comments were in reference to the media's interest in this case. Why were the media interested in this child abuse case when it's at the low end of the child abuse cases that the court sees.

Of course the magistrate knew why the interest - WT. But imo she was making the point that there is horrific child abuse happening everyday that's never reported on by the media. And perhaps it should be.

But just because there are more horrible cases, doesn't make this case less horrible IMO.

 

[inkpink]

Shocking! 2 adults simultaneously being violent towards a child.

I'm going to assume that the victim whilst in time out expressed the need to go to the toilet, which was denied, resulting in her stating she would have to go on the floor or such.

Didn't the FM state that the bruises were from an incident with a horse?

I'm pretty sure we know who the horse is.....