Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sept 2014 - #61

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Police revealed on Wednesday that the vehicle, a silver Mazda hatchback, was seized from a home in Gymea, in the Sutherland Shire, under a coronial order on November 9. On Monday, November 15, NSW Police announced hundreds of officers would descend on the small town of Kendall where a three-year-old William vanished more than seven years ago. William Tyrrell disappearance: Key moments in first week of renewed search | news.com.au — Australia’s leading news site Why not mention the car - on the 9th being examined?? until after the examination of it is already underway. But mentioned the searches ahead of time.


It's plausible that police conducted a search of the car on direction of the Coroner as she has seen it was never cleared. Upon doing so perhaps they found something in the boot which made them re-examine FFC statement. Her admission of driving it near the riding school could have pinpointed the new search location. IMO police are looking for evidence of a crime scene at the house, they have evidence from the car already (and her admission of driving it) and now they just need to locate William. I don't believe she would have the time or strength to dig a grave so placed him in an unseen area off the roadside, probably covered him with branches etc. Time, weather etc has concealed him further. She may have thought that by throwing out an abduction idea that even if LE found his remains straight away it might be considered that the abductor discarded his body or even that his death could be considered misadventure.
 
Thank you. I just finished this episode.

I haven't completed the entire podcast (which I'm working on), but I'm confused as to how the podcast creators reconcile the 000 call (FFC walked down the road for 15 - 20 minutes) with FFC's inquest testimony that she went to the riding school. They treat that with little to no suspicion.

Also in the latest episode, they confidently assert that the new assault allegation has "literally nothing to do" with WT's disappearance. Whilst this may be DIRECTLY true, it could end up being indirectly false (if the assault charges are true and they somehow stem from discussions about WT which led to a physical reaction, i.e.). We have zero idea. It seems the podcast goes out of their way to provide further protection to the foster parents, who are already well-protected.

People in this thread have also brought up that their anonymity may have hindered the investigation in terms of identification, bringing information forward, etc.

I guess we find out on Tuesday how much info gets released and how the court and media handle it.


Will it be held in a closed court with no public or media to further protect the FP's?
 
Also, don't forget FMs dad is buried there, always a reason to visit grave.

Would they have buried FGM where Foster grandfather is buried seems likely. Another reason to go back there, this year.

They were going to visit his gravesite later that day for the first time since his funeral. The cemetery was a couple of hundred metres from the house on Benaroon Drive.
 
I can only imagine the cost that this latest search/investigation is costing. If they are now suggesting this search could take months and the cost involved, could we assume that they really might have some form of evidence, not just a theory?

Initially, it was anticipated that the search could be over after three weeks, but a spokesman for the force told news.com.au that it could now stretch out for months.


He revealed the mammoth scale of the search has been revealed for the first time – with police sifting through the topsoil by hand over an area spanning roughly 1.5 square kilometres.

He said police have not even searched 10 per cent of the total area yet – meaning the operation is set to last several months.


Cops make new discovery at Tyrrell site
 
The other aspect im interested to know about that i don't think has been discussed was did the children hav a nanny, the family were in the process of around an $800,000 renovation, most average people don't that hav that kinda money they were a bit older than the average age of people who normally are raising kids that age, so I always wonder did they hav assistance as its alot of work to raise kids that age and its alot of bother for people who are getting a little older who are probably set in their ways, I always wondered did they hav a nanny or assistance and maby they didn't bring them to Kendall for what ever reason, WT was only 3 and a half and in day care apparently the FM was a stay at home mother so I always had the idea that day care looked after them during the day and possibly assistance/nanny after and before daycare, I wonder what the regulations around having nannys and kids in day care when they are foster kids you would think the howl idea is that your with them rather than day care looking after them and possibly nanny's, I always wondered about the overseas holidays how hard with young children when one has behaviour issues wonder if a nanny came or if they were put in hotel day care during the trip, by the photos recently released it shows the perents with faces blacked out drinking lots of photos it was on TV the other day how hard to do this with a young behaviour problem child if you didn't hav any help most people hav grandparents helping with baby sitting its looking like the FGM wasn't involved with this sort of activity, its alot of work young children when your professional people with money I can really start to see the mental stress would start developing if you hav done all this for nothing and adoption is looking less likely or if the children are usually cared for now your doing it all on your own husband not home your not coping i can see an accident is possibly or anything is possible but I really do wonder if they were usually cared for by a nanny or baby sitter and do thies people need to be approved by the department you would think so but who knows they took the kids overseas and who knows who looking after them while on holidays as its quite normal to hav hotel day care when overseas so perents can relax and drink
 
I can only imagine the cost that this latest search/investigation is costing. If they are now suggesting this search could take months and the cost involved, could we assume that they really might have some form of evidence, not just a theory?

Initially, it was anticipated that the search could be over after three weeks, but a spokesman for the force told news.com.au that it could now stretch out for months.


He revealed the mammoth scale of the search has been revealed for the first time – with police sifting through the topsoil by hand over an area spanning roughly 1.5 square kilometres.

He said police have not even searched 10 per cent of the total area yet – meaning the operation is set to last several months.


Cops make new discovery at Tyrrell site
 
Will it be held in a closed court with no public or media to further protect the FP's?

I think the whole foster carer anonymity was a strange policy decision.

So William's face can be shown but not the face of his carers or parents. Then the court says his parents can be shown but we're still hiding the faces of his foster carers!? To what end, one would ask.

If it's about protecting the identity of foster carers then that policy has to change because it has been incredibly unhelpful and I'm unsure of the benefits. If it's about protecting William or his sister it makes no sense. His other siblings would be known to be children related to him (as being children of his now known mother).
 
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Hi, new member here, thanks for having me and for all the info everyone shares. Apologies for the very long post. (Please feel free not to read ie TLDR ;) )

The WT case has always deeply disturbed me. The notion that a gorgeous young boy could just disappear into thin air in such an out-of-the-way location is scary. After following the case for a while, and watching CO's documentary, I believed (MOO) that a lot of things pointed to FA (and part of the evidence that potentially supported this conclusion was the FFC's recollection of a car similar to that that allegedly belonging to RP). So this last week's turn of events has me (like everyone else!) truly shocked. Because if the FFC's testimony is to be doubted/ potentially false, then the FA scenario falls apart. However, in some way, the FFC being reported in the media (as apparently told by police) as being the sole POI is starting to make some sense. The POTENTIAL scenario of the one or more of the foster family being involved is perhaps more likely than a random opportunistic abduction, and explains the complete lack of corroboration of anyone "strange/unusual" being seen by anyone else in the street. It also fits with statistics we know about child disappearances ie that someone close to the child is statistically more likely to be involved that a random.

I also think that surely, SURELY, after the BS fiasco and the irreparable damage done to that poor man's life (including death threats, loss of his business, having his grandchildren removed, needing to move often etc etc) and the subsequent law suit he is bringing against NSWPOL, that the police would not risk going down a speculative rabbit hole a second time with another person without very concrete and reliable evidence that convinces them that this POI is responsible. Surely NSWPOL would not risk another law suit by someone who apparently is well-resourced and well-connected. And Det Chief Supt Darren Bennett was quoted as saying "This activity is.... not speculative in any way." NSW Police set their sights on ONE suspect as ‘high intensity’ search for William Tyrrell continues

In addition:
- it cannot be denied that there are inconsistencies and holes in FFC's version of events. Like others, I had put this down to the stress and chaos involved in those first few days
- AFAIK the public are not aware of the results of the forensic investigation of the photos ie that the EXIF data times have matched up to her version of events. With a professional photographer in the family, I know that camera times are often not right, but why would there be a "corrected time" for each photograph of William that morning, with those corrected times BEFORE he went missing? I could understand if the corrected times were later that morning, for example, at a time that they were downloaded on to a computer to be emailed to police. Unless the FFC was actually on the computer downloading the images during the time William "disappeared" and then would obviously not been supervising him closely. I also don't buy that the camera was on Bali time! Who would set their camera to the local time when going on holidays?! And if the person was one to be so concerned with having the correct time on the camera, wouldn't this person have then altered the camera time back to the local time? Was the camera bought in Bali? Is that why it was on Bali time? Even so, when you buy a camera, you usually have to set the local time yourself.
- Another issue in the well-known photo of him doing a "roar", is where he is looking when the FFC took it. He is definitely looking at something or someone that is NOT HER. The way he is doing the "roar" is as if he is doing it at someone. If it was at someone, then that puts another person there at the times that they were on the deck (as we can see the FGM and the FD, then FFC would be holding the camera, and then there would be the person that WT is looking at. And why did the FFC feel the need to explain this away? Was she directly asked about this at the inquest (I wasn't there so I don't know)? This all puts further doubt on the timeline and the photos.
- My limited understanding is that there are scent detections dogs that are separately trained to detect a range of different scents. And that a scent detection dog searching for a live person would not be able to detect a cadaver and vice versa. I agree that a good scent detection dog is absolutely miraculous at detecting scents through walls, concrete etc. But they are not all as good as each other. My other understanding is that the scent detection dog brought on the day WT went missing did not go through the house or was taken to the cars, can someone please correct me if I am wrong? Hence, if WT's body had been moved in a car, say the FGM's, it would not have been detected unless the dog was actually taken up to it. My understanding, which may be incorrect, was that this was not done.
- The POTENTIAL scenario of WT perishing at the home, then being moved within a small time-frame and then a "disappearance" staged, is awfully brazen, but no less so than a random stranger entering the large, exposed yard on a quiet street and taking a small child in a brightly-coloured outfit without being seen.
- I would like to know when, exactly, the new concrete slab was laid in the garage. WS members have commented that it looks like a home-job. When was this done? Because the possibility of WT being buried under it depends on someone having access to bury his body in the garage before the concrete slab was laid. If we assume the house changed hands shortly after WT disappeared, then that gives a perp connected to the house only a short time to dig and bury a body deep enough and well enough that a new owner wouldn't notice. And to do that in the weeks that he went missing would be awfully risky as I am sure there would have been a lot of interest in what was going on at that house. Could it possibly be that a subsequent owner did notice that there was an irregularity in the dirt floor and notified police? Perhaps it wasn't acted on at the time, but after re-looking at all the evidence, this is why the sudden interest in the garage floor.
- I believe that the way the FFC described the events on that morning 12/9/14, especially during the walk-through video, is definitely odd. Her continual switching between past and present tense is, IMO, unusual. I have thought that if I was describing what I did before an event, I would be saying "I did this..., then I did that....", ie it would all be in the past tense. She uses the present tense a lot, and IMO it is odd and unnatural. However I am not a human behaviour expert or qualified to give a professional opinion on this, it just is not how I have heard other people describe their past behaviour or actions around a particular event.
- The timing of the car being taken and analysed and the other foster child being removed from the FP's care (which all happened a week before the new searches were announced), plus the AVO and the alleged assault charges against the FP being announced that week of the new searches cannot be a coincidence. This seems like a multi-pronged approach launched on the basis of firm evidence and suggests that things are close to a conclusion, but the police need more forensic evidence to secure a conviction (hence the current extensive searches). I do agree that the leaking to media and public way this is all playing out is unusual (compare the DM case) and perhaps is a political play to reassure the community that they are throwing everything at this. I also agree that this feels to me like their last chance - ie if they don't find something now, they never will and WT's case will go cold. If they don't find anything this time, at least they can say to the public "See, we clearly showed you all how incredibly hard we worked to solved this, we did our best, but couldn't find anything". I really hope, however that this is not the case!

Apologies again for such a long post, it is just that these are all the things I have been thinking about as I have read all of your posts. I just want justice and closure for WT and his family, and for the person/s responsible to be held to account, no matter what the answer is. I feel we all need closure on this - those who knew and loved WT, the community of Kendall, the hundreds of police who have worked tirelessly to find him, and most of all his sister (my thoughts and heart go out to her at the moment, what she is going through currently I can't even imagine). I pray that this doesn't all end up a dead end.
welcome sleepy joe!
thank you for very well thought out post.
Lots of like minded people share your thoughts and musings.

Where are you william xx
 
In case it helps anyone, and that includes me, I decided to transcribe some of Ep. 1 of the Where's William podcast. I'm not quite finished.

The children slept in separate bedrooms – WT with his MFC and FD with FFC.

The kids finished breakfast. FFC and the kids went outside to ride their bikes. The kids had been racing up and down the driveway while FFC and FFGM were watching on. FD suddenly stopped in the middle of the driveway because she saw a car that had driven past and she and FFC both took note of that car. FFC talks about that in her police statement.

FD said, “Who’s that car, mummy?” I looked out onto the road and saw a dark green, grey sedan drive past Mum’s house, up Benaroon Drive towards the M’s house next door. The car just nosed into the M’s driveway and then backed out of the driveway. I said to FD, ‘I don’t know. Probably the neighbour’. I said that because I thought that the Ms were home and I think they have a car that is sort of similar to that. The last time I saw the car was when it had turned around in the M’s driveway and had literally just started driving back down the street. The car looked like it was driving with a purpose as opposed to slowly driving along like someone was looking for something. I would have seen the car for less than 10 seconds from when I first saw it until I last saw it. I can’t remember whether the windows were down. I couldn’t see any of the occupants, but this time I turned my attention back towards FD riding the bike because she had started riding again.”

After the kids finished riding their bikes, they went back inside but after 10 mins, WT wanted to go back outside and play. FD stayed inside with FFGM. FFC took WT outside and they played Mummy Monsters before returning inside.

The-little-boy-in-the-spiderman-suit
 
I can only imagine the cost that this latest search/investigation is costing. If they are now suggesting this search could take months and the cost involved, could we assume that they really might have some form of evidence, not just a theory?

Initially, it was anticipated that the search could be over after three weeks, but a spokesman for the force told news.com.au that it could now stretch out for months.


He revealed the mammoth scale of the search has been revealed for the first time – with police sifting through the topsoil by hand over an area spanning roughly 1.5 square kilometres.

He said police have not even searched 10 per cent of the total area yet – meaning the operation is set to last several months.


Cops make new discovery at Tyrrell site

Yes, I totally agree. The police must have some very convincing evidence to justify mounting a search of this magnitude and, no doubt, of such huge expense. Remember it is public money (taxpayer dollars) they are spending in this search - I am sure they would not have had authorisation from higher up for investing such a huge amount of resources and time without a damn good reason. And imagine, after all this, them to then say to the public "Woops, sorry, we got it wrong". No, I really don't think they would risk this if they weren't sure they'll find something. JMO!
 
Hey websleuths,

Just a quick question. Sorry if this has already been addressed. I noticed something that confused me when comparing some comments by the FFC about their trip to Kendall. It might be nothing.

#1 Missing William Tyrrell - Caroline Overington Page 10.
---------------------------
"the family left the childcare centre shortly after 4pm."

They would stop three times on the way up, first at the Caltex twin centre near Wyong, but only for five minutes so the children could stretch their legs and use the toilet, and then a second time for dinner at Mcdonald’s near Heatherbrae.'

#2 Where’s William Tyrrell Podcast: Episode: The Little boy in a spiderman suit
---------------------------
William’s foster dad pulled into the McDonald’s car park around 6:25pm

FFC mentioned they used the toilets at McDonalds.

#3 Missing William Tyrrell - Caroline Overington Page 10.
---------------------------
Their third stop came just a few minutes after they pulled onto the freeway [after leaving McDonald's], when William’s foster mum remembered that the kids weren’t wearing pull-ups. They still had a few hours to go in the car, and she was happy for them to fall asleep, but maybe not without pull-ups, and so they pulled over on the side of the road, just past a guard rail, took the children out of the car, put pull-ups on them and then set off again, arriving at Kendall at around 9 p.m

As a mum of three little ones, I can't imagine stopping 3 times to tend to toileting matters in a 4 hour drive. Why so many toilet stops?

Is it just me or does the FFC give a lot of details and talk nearly too much?

JMO
 
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Police revealed on Wednesday that the vehicle, a silver Mazda hatchback, was seized from a home in Gymea, in the Sutherland Shire, under a coronial order on November 9. On Monday, November 15, NSW Police announced hundreds of officers would descend on the small town of Kendall where a three-year-old William vanished more than seven years ago. William Tyrrell disappearance: Key moments in first week of renewed search | news.com.au — Australia’s leading news site Why not mention the car - on the 9th being examined?? until after the examination of it is already underway. But mentioned the searches ahead of time.


It's plausible that police conducted a search of the car on direction of the Coroner as she has seen it was never cleared. Upon doing so perhaps they found something in the boot which made them re-examine FFC statement. Her admission of driving it near the riding school could have pinpointed the new search location. IMO police are looking for evidence of a crime scene at the house, they have evidence from the car already (and her admission of driving it) and now they just need to locate William. I don't believe she would have the time or strength to dig a grave so placed him in an unseen area off the roadside, probably covered him with branches etc. Time, weather etc has concealed him further. She may have thought that by throwing out an abduction idea that even if LE found his remains straight away it might be considered that the abductor discarded his body or even that his death could be considered misadventure.
 
Listening to Gary’s recent response to the last developments on the William Tyrrell investigation and the claims his investigation was in “shambles” on his podcast “I Catch Killers” further cements my concerns.

I’d recommend listening to it (available on Apple podcasts) but in summary:

- a member of the strike force ... raised concerns that there were things that wasn’t sitting well with her regarding the foster parents ... Gary ... agreed that it’s important to keep all options open ...
- Gary ... interrogated both of the foster parents separately ...
- Gary advised that there was a covert operation in place immediately after the foster parents were interviewed to listen to their conversations to see if anything was discussed between the two foster parents ... nothing concerning was disclosed during the covert operation.
- Gary stated that the strike force eliminated the foster parents again following the formal interviews with the foster parents and nothing being uncovered during the covert operation.
Hmmn. These secret recordings of the two foster carers in this situation were predicated on, if there is guilt in that family, both foster carers being in on a coverup, which strikes me as a huge assumption leaving out other family-associated options.

Additionally, Jubelin never brought in the foster grandmother or WT's sister for an interview to corroborate the foster carer's stories? I'm confused by this, if he was bringing in a fresh set of eyes. They were supposedly two of the last people to see WT alive. I know there are certain things he can't comment on due to the ongoing investigation. He never did say there are certain aspects he couldn't discuss regarding the potential involvement of the parents, and went on to explain what went into ruling them out. I'm left feeling disappointed by his answer at any rate.

Also, I actually never thought CS's parents were responsible. I thought it was a strange situation, though, and I was confused. That Jubelin was initially confident they did it is surprising to me.

Here is a link for anyone else to listen:
‎I Catch Killers with Gary Jubelin on Apple Podcasts

ETA: Also, the more updates I hear, the more of a marginalised portrayal of the bio parents I'm getting. So sad.
 
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I'm returning to FM's story but making up my own theory of what happened.

What if FM thought WT was somewhere safe when he wasn't? They'd gone for a walk earlier, kids rode their bikes, played in the yard, took their shoes off and came into the house, had a bite to eat and seemed content to sit and draw pictures on the deck, FM took pics of WT and sister drawing, they're barefoot, FGM reading the local paper.

10.05 am- 10.10 am - FM and FGM went inside, chit chatting or deep in conversation about concerns for WT or other issues, maybe, she was looking around the house to check nothing else needs doing for this sale, FGM prepares another cup of tea, both still chit chatting and FM lost track of time.

Iirc, LT came inside to use the toilet in this time period, and FM said she didn't need assistance, so was she even aware LT had come inside to use the toilet, or, did she find out later after WT went missing and questioned LT about the events?

Before
LT went to the toilet, WT had put his shoes on by himself and said to her, 'I can see daddy...I'm looking for daddy.....or, daddy's here?' (not sure exact words LT remembered)
Or, After LT returned from the toilet, WT had already shoes on and he says, 'I can see daddy.....' and he looks over railing and then, runs off into the yard.

FM hadn't seen WT put his shoes on by himself before. A lot of kids are difficult at this age about shoes, especially if the mum is in a hurry.

10.25am - 10.30 am - When FM returns to the patio with FGM and cups of tea, WT is gone and so are his shoes! She's shocked and then, goes into a panic!

10.25am- FF texts he'll be home in 5 minutes, FM desperately searching around the yard and part of the street.

10.30am - FF returns, FM tells him WT has disappeared and both search and make contact with neighbours to help.

FM is acting cagey about the shoes because she never saw him put them on. WT and LT had been left unattended for...15 -20 minutes? That's a long time for littlies to be left alone and imo, she feels guilty and helpless. She risks losing LT and is devastated she let William down.

In 15 - 20 minutes a lot could've happened. WT could've have run god knows where, there's no fences, he's not familiar with the area, he's not a 'wanderer' but there's always a first time. WT could've been abducted anywhere in the street, front of someone's yard or hit by a car further down the street and taken away......

In saying all that, FM is sensitive about questions regarding the 'shoes', the amount of 'time' WT and LT were left alone on patio, when LT 'went to the toilet', when she 'heard WT's growling'.

I'm guessing FM drove around searching at approximately 10.40 am and returned to make 000 call at the house at 10.56 am. Time driving 10-15 minutes at the most.

JMO
That's what I think...they were playing while the adults yaked...let comes and uses toilet..fm.notices William isnt coming back after the roar and relises lt in toilet so who did he roar at..unless she presumed ff back early
 
It would take a
It's plausible that police conducted a search of the car on direction of the Coroner as she has seen it was never cleared. Upon doing so perhaps they found something in the boot which made them re-examine FFC statement. Her admission of driving it near the riding school could have pinpointed the new search location. IMO police are looking for evidence of a crime scene at the house, they have evidence from the car already (and her admission of driving it) and now they just need to locate William. I don't believe she would have the time or strength to dig a grave so placed him in an unseen area off the roadside, probably covered him with branches etc. Time, weather etc has concealed him further. She may have thought that by throwing out an abduction idea that even if LE found his remains straight away it might be considered that the abductor discarded his body or even that his death could be considered misadventure.
Considerable amount of time for her to dig that size and hide him
 
Thank you. I just finished this episode.

I haven't completed the entire podcast (which I'm working on), but I'm confused as to how the podcast creators reconcile the 000 call (FFC walked down the road for 15 - 20 minutes) with FFC's inquest testimony that she went to the riding school. They treat that with little to no suspicion.

Also in the latest episode, they confidently assert that the new assault allegation has "literally nothing to do" with WT's disappearance. Whilst this may be DIRECTLY true, it could end up being indirectly false (if the assault charges are true and they somehow stem from discussions about WT which led to a physical reaction, i.e.). We have zero idea. It seems the podcast goes out of their way to provide further protection to the foster parents, who are already well-protected.

People in this thread have also brought up that their anonymity may have hindered the investigation in terms of identification, bringing information forward, etc.

I guess we find out on Tuesday how much info gets released and how the court and media handle it.


Will it be held in a closed court with no public or media to further protect the FP's?
The new witness could be anyone. LT has been in school for 7 years and if she knew anything, there’s any number of people she might’ve said something to.


Could LT have told something to one of her friends or a teacher or counsellor and it has escalated from there? Was LT seeing a counsellor ?
 
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