AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #10

[Pensfan]

I'm behind as usual, but want to add this point about the dogs. Many home invasions have been accomplished by the intruder tossing a piece of raw meat to the dog. This distracts the dog, and it pays no attention to some stranger breaking into a house. What dog can resist a big, juicy steak? Not many dogs will bark while they're in the middle of a midnight snack.

bbm
Dogs, like German Shepherds, that have a very high protective instinct would resist one with an intruder present. (Someone posted today that in the doorway of the Celis home there was a dog that looked like a German Shepherd.)

 

[tlcya]

I'm sure this has already been talked about, but this morning I saw the thread for Jhessye Shockley and the one for Isabel were listed next to each other and both are from AZ and six months apart. When I did a google map search, the towns are only 126 miles straight on I-10 apart - about 2.25 driving hours.

Is there any possibility of a link to each other?

Yes, AZ does seem to be having a lot of attempted abductions and children reported missing.

I do not feel the two cases are related. Jhessye Shockley's older siblings tell LE that Jhessye was tortured, beaten and murdered by her mother, Jerice Hunter. LE feels very confident, as do I, that Jhessye shockley was not abducted or harmed by anyone other than her own mother.

I do feel that Isabel was taken. Probably by someone close to the family and known and familiar but not an immediate family member.

 

[AnaTeresa]

bbm
Dogs, like German Shepherds, that have a very high protective instinct would resist one with an intruder present. (Someone posted today that in the doorway of the Celis home there was a dog that looked like a German Shepherd.)

The dogs in the Groene case hid. And I believe they were large dogs with a protective instinct prior to that. It's very hard to predict how an animal will react in these sorts of situations.

 

[Lava]

The dogs in the Groene case hid. And I believe they were large dogs with a protective instinct prior to that. It's very hard to predict how an animal will react in these sorts of situations.

It is hard to predict how animals will react. However, German Shepherds operate on a completely different level than most other breeds. It is really hard to explain unless you own one. Even those not trained in Schutzhund or Personal Protection have this innate protective personality in overdrive. Even when my boyfriend just hugs me our GSD goes absolutely insane. And while I believe feeding treats to many dogs will get you on their good side, I think it would still be difficult with a GSD. That being said, all dogs are different and individual. Also, I kind of remember the picture of the dog in Celis doorway, but I don't remember it being a GSD. Have to see it again.

 

[LisaB]

Exactly about the parents or they know some of what is going on & have to keep quiet? Not that I've noticed about warnings. It was big in the news until Tuesday, I think. They do mention it but our pressers sure aren't. I guess Pacheco coming out & saying they aren't ruling out a connection on Monday (I think) stopped the questions from the press but had me thinking something is up.

I better stop so I don't help a perp. ha ha!

This seems SO likely. They would have no reason to appear in the media to call out far and wide for the kidnapper to return Isa if they already had reason to believe the perp was a specific someone they knew. When finally forced to make a statement a week ago, they asked "what do you want?" and "tell us your demands!" but aren't getting the response they expected. I think they HOPED this person had taken their daughter planning to profit financially, When they offered him/her an opportunity to name a price, it didn't happen, leaving them to wonder whether Isabel has been killed, or the perp is just afraid of trying to make contact because of LE presence.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

bbm
Dogs, like German Shepherds, that have a very high protective instinct would resist one with an intruder present. (Someone posted today that in the doorway of the Celis home there was a dog that looked like a German Shepherd.)

Even the news has put out lately that Pit Bulls are the ones who can be vicious and are prone to attack but that sure didnt do the Greones' one bit of good the night Duncan invaded their home with them totally unaware he was inside.

Not only was the large Pit Bull roaming loose inside of their home they also had another large dog inside that looked to be a mix breed with Pit in it and dogs can be more aggressive if there are more than one dog present.

Nothing at all happened to Duncan.... he even was proud of the way the dogs whimpered and got up under the kitchen table and stayed there the entire time.

So the dogs being inside or outside that night doesnt really tell us anything, imo.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

In an earlier post on this thread (#44), I mentioned that DH and I discussed a particular photo of Isabel that has been shown on news reports about the case. Without quoting a specific post here overnight or this morning, I would like reference the "dating site" that some have mentioned. I haven't seen it nor do I care to, but I have some thoughts about this that tie in to the parents' Today show interview. I'm still on the fence about Isabel's parents having hurt (or worse) their child, but I think it's possible that they are protecting another family member.

FWIW, both parents talked about Isabel's appearance. Mom called her a girly girl who likes to put on makeup, paint her nails, have her hair done. Dad gushed about "that face" and how beautiful Isabel is. They mentioned Isabel's brothers but made no mention of other friends with whom Isabel plays, nothing about school, not even anything about the baseball team and Isa's teammates. IMO, both parents seem overly concerned about their daughter's appearance. I'm reminded of JonBenet Ramsey all dolled-up and participating in pageants or clips that I've seen of the current TV show where little girls are being paraded around like sex objects.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if we learn that Isabel had/has been molested by a family member, one of her teenage brother's friends, or a sex offender. I have a continuing thought about this but will keep it to myself. :moo:

 

[Lava]

Found video of dog here: http://abcnews.go.com/US/missing-tucson-girl-isabel-celis-surveillance-videos-hold/story?id=16210060#.T6PsftUQLI2

Here is a picture:

Definitely a mix, so it is hard to predict how it will act based on breed.


(and OT - but an FYI - According the American Temperament Testing Society, Golden Retrievers are more aggressive than Pitts.)

 

[CarrieBean]

I'm sure this has already been talked about, but this morning I saw the thread for Jhessye Shockley and the one for Isabel were listed next to each other and both are from AZ and six months apart. When I did a google map search, the towns are only 126 miles straight on I-10 apart - about 2.25 driving hours.

Is there any possibility of a link to each other?

I believe Jhessye died at the hands of her mother.

 

[CarrieBean]

Definitely a mix, so it is hard to predict how it will act based on breed.


(and OT - but an FYI - According the American Temperament Testing Society, Golden Retrievers are more aggressive than Pitts.)

snipped

It can be very hard to tell with mixed breeds. The OT part surprises me a lot. All the GR's I know/knew are some of the most mellow dogs I've ever seen.

 

[Lava]

snipped

It can be very hard to tell with mixed breeds. The OT part surprises me a lot. All the GR's I know/knew are some of the most mellow dogs I've ever seen.

I can message you some info. It would take too much space here lol. GRs aren't bad dogs at all, but there is just too much irresponsible breeding going on.

 

[keeponsearching]

Looks like a mixed breed to me. Cute. I had a full pit and she was sweet, my mix lab,huskey dorberman would tear someones face apart if they open my door, if my husband was not home. I love all dogs. This one looks to have some pit in it, my opinion. But I took a test once to pick out the true pit in a test of 25, even owning one, I failed 5 times. So many mixes can have a little bit in them.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

In an earlier post on this thread (#44), I mentioned that DH and I discussed a particular photo of Isabel that has been shown on news reports about the case. Without quoting a specific post here overnight or this morning, I would like reference the "dating site" that some have mentioned. I haven't seen it nor do I care to, but I have some thoughts about this that tie in to the parents' Today show interview. I'm still on the fence about Isabel's parents having hurt (or worse) their child, but I think it's possible that they are protecting another family member.

FWIW, both parents talked about Isabel's appearance. Mom called her a girly girl who likes to put on makeup, paint her nails, have her hair done. Dad gushed about "that face" and how beautiful Isabel is. They mentioned Isabel's brothers but made no mention of other friends with whom Isabel plays, nothing about school, not even anything about the baseball team and Isa's teammates. IMO, both parents seem overly concerned about their daughter's appearance. I'm reminded of JonBenet Ramsey all dolled-up and participating in pageants or clips that I've seen of the current TV show where little girls are being paraded around like sex objects.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if we learn that Isabel had/has been molested by a family member, one of her teenage brother's friends, or a sex offender. I have a continuing thought about this but will keep it to myself. :moo:

Isa is strikingly beautiful there is no way to overlook that and I havent found a parent yet that didnt think their child was beautiful or handsome. I dont recall one parent ever saying 'my child is ugly to the bone.'

What loving parent doesnt have videos and photos of their children all dressed up? And there are plenty of Isa when she isnt but just wearing every day attire. Isa has an angelic face that is mesmerizing to me so of course her father would remember that sweet sweet face. It probably tears them both up inside when they think of their beautiful little girl and her sweet smiling face appears in their minds.

They told what Isa liked to do. What is abnormal about that? She sounds like a wonderful happy child to me and doing things that little 6 year old girls love to do.

They were not asked about Isa's friends ....they expressed what she liked to do with her family. I have no doubt she loved her older brothers immensely and they love Isa. Becky's brother said the boys missed her a lot. Imo, Isa was doted on.......not only because she is such a pretty child but she is also the only daughter and the youngest child.

Imo, there is not one shred of evidence pointing to anyone ever molesting Isa. From everything we have heard by the people that REALLY KNOWS this family they have said they are a wonderful family. From all we have seen she is loved immensely by her family including her extended family.

IMO

 

[ehough22]

So the dogs being inside or outside that night doesnt really tell us anything, imo.

Yes, but no. LOL. I feel like the dogs can be quite a clue, however, we the public simply don't know enough to glean much of anything. We know the dogs were there, that's about it. But we don't know if they barked, we don't know if their barks were ignored, we don't even know where the dogs were in the house. I do feel these things are important when all put together, but I would agree that just knowing the dogs were inside and outside isn't enough to make any assumptions.

And just because they apparently didn't attack anyone, doesn't mean they didn't or wouldn't bark up a storm at an intruder. But again, we're missing pieces of the puzzle.

(I also personally am not sure that I believe anything convicted killer Duncan says about the dogs....he seems really cocky, and I think he may be overstating his impact on the Groene dogs, but that's jmo. I am not comfortable using the Groene dogs as some kind of case history when the only witnesses are a terrified little girl and a convicted murderer).

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Looks like a mixed breed to me. Cute. I had a full pit and she was sweet, my mix lab,huskey dorberman would tear someones face apart if they open my door, if my husband was not home. I love all dogs. This one looks to have some pit in it, my opinion. But I took a test once to pick out the true pit in a test of 25, even owning one, I failed 5 times. So many mixes can have a little bit in them.

They probably adopted the dogs they had from the Human Society.

I love mixed breeds.........they can turnout to be some of the best sweetest dogs ever.

I have both and love them all.

IMO

 

[LisaB]

(snip)
It leaves me to suspect someone who knew this family. Someone who had been there before. Someone who would have known the surveillance camera was non functional.

(snip)

I don't want to start any trouble (who am I kidding, I LOVE making trouble *LOL*) but IMO, the perp may NOT have known the camera was non- functional and turned it skyward to avoid being caught on it. If he knew it was broken, there would be no need to take this measure.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Yes, but no. LOL. I feel like the dogs can be quite a clue, however, we the public simply don't know enough to glean much of anything. We know the dogs were there, that's about it. But we don't know if they barked, we don't know if their barks were ignored, we don't even know where the dogs were in the house. I do feel these things are important when all put together, but I would agree that just knowing the dogs were inside and outside isn't enough to make any assumptions.

And just because they apparently didn't attack anyone, doesn't mean they didn't or wouldn't bark up a storm at an intruder. But again, we're missing pieces of the puzzle.

(I also personally am not sure that I believe anything convicted killer Duncan says about the dogs....he seems really cocky, and I think he may be overstating his impact on the Groene dogs, but that's jmo).

Oh, I do beleive him totally. He was brutally honest when he told Shasta everything.

He told her exactly how he killed her mom, brother, and mom's boyfriend .......even showing her the Mighty-Max hammer he used to crush their skulls.

He is proud of what he does. He doesnt have to lie. No one knew he was inside that home until he wanted them to know and it was far too late for anyone there. The dogs couldnt have alerted. I think they did exactly what he said they did. Dogs can sense evil too, imo, and can be just as afraid as humans and they are also as unpredictable as human beings too.

IMO

 

[Lava]

Has he been reported yet? Not saying this is the guy but anyone fitting the sketch should be reported. JMO

Someone here mentioned that the police were aware, but didn't really say how. It always makes me nervous because I'm afraid "group mentality" might be in effect and everyone just assumes LE knows.

 

[Lava]

Anyone have any information on a missing 15 years old from Tucson, since yesterday? Name is Julia Barron.

Date missing may be the 2nd, or the 3rd.

 

[insatiable]

They probably adopted the dogs they had from the Human Society.

I love mixed breeds.........they can turnout to be some of the best sweetest dogs ever.

I have both and love them all.

IMO

What makes you think they got the dogs from the Humane Society?