Here's what I don't understand, my granddaughter is turning 5 next month, is a normal weight not chubby at all, but is heavy to lift, let alone lugging her up to a window and out and her not screaming! How did this guy manage this with Isa? He's strong? He taped her mouth?
Found Deceased AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 *Arrest* #26
- Thread starter Greater Than
- Start date
- Status
oceanblueeyes
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2004
- Messages
- 26,446
- Reaction score
- 43,721
Did CC destroy his car in question? IRDK the answer.
The reason I asked is years later the prosecutors were able to locate Charles Merritt's truck. It helped to convict him ....not only because the video from the McStays neighbor lined up with his truck, but it also allowed the jury to see how he was able to transport all four bodies to the desert sight unseen.
If CC destroyed or made sure to get rid of the car then he knew there was damaging evidence of him having Isa in that vehicle both when he kidnapped her, and when he most likely used it to carry her dead body to the wash area in the isolated desert.
Iirc, a witness said they saw a man walking late at night or early morning holding the hand of a child, and it looked like they got into a vehicle in an alley about 2 blocks from Isa's home.
I hope LE has located the car, and impounded it again for the two murder charges against him now.
Often even though the murderer thinks they have cleaned everything up sometimes they still leave evidence of the victims behind.
He probably used this same vehicle when he murdered Maribel.
These are the reasons he wanted his vehicle back. Imo
Jmho
oceanblueeyes
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2004
- Messages
- 26,446
- Reaction score
- 43,721
Okay, I've been thinking about something else about this case. Dont beat me up please. 
Remember all of the video footage they had from around Isa's home when she was first abducted from her home?
Back then TPD had no clue CC was the abductor of beautiful little Isa nor did they know at that time what he even looked like or what vehicle he drove.
NOW THEY DO!!!
I am positive they have now gone back to look at all that video footage, and they may have collected even more back then than the public ever saw.
Wouldn't it be amazing if the prosecutors are in possession of video footage showing him lurking in the area?
The DA will not divulge all of the damaging evidence they have amassed against CC. His arrest, and charges never means the investigation is over. In fact in all murder cases it continues full on even close to trial time.
Imo, they have much more evidence against him than just what we have learned thus far. Imo, what they are going to know about what CC has done to these two beautiful girls is going to be overwhelmingly damaging.
The DA already knows they can prove CC abducted, raped, and murdered Isa. That is why they have attached the death penalty option to her murder as well.
Remember when skinny small framed,old John Couey was able to go through the window of the Lunsford home to kidnap 8 year old Jessica Lunsford taking her out the window, and no one inside heard a thing? Her little dog was in the bed with her, but it never barked. I think dogs can sense evil themselves, and are fearful when they feel it's presence.
Just like other stranger pedophile murderers have done, CC did the same with Isa, and he was a lot younger than aging JC, and larger.
Imo, they control the innocent child by paralyzing fear, and threats. Didn't they find drops of blood in her bedroom. If so, he also probably held a knife to Isa's throat. In all of these cases where pedophiles came into the child's homes, and took them out they did not scream.
Imo, They were too terrified to do so, and serial pedophiles know how to control their abducted victims into being compliant, and following their demands thinking if they do as they demand they won't be harmed.
We see cases where adult female, and male victims did the same thing thinking they would be spared from harm. Yet for a child the fear must be even more terrifying if possible.
Imoo
Remember all of the video footage they had from around Isa's home when she was first abducted from her home?
Back then TPD had no clue CC was the abductor of beautiful little Isa nor did they know at that time what he even looked like or what vehicle he drove.
NOW THEY DO!!!
I am positive they have now gone back to look at all that video footage, and they may have collected even more back then than the public ever saw.
Wouldn't it be amazing if the prosecutors are in possession of video footage showing him lurking in the area?
The DA will not divulge all of the damaging evidence they have amassed against CC. His arrest, and charges never means the investigation is over. In fact in all murder cases it continues full on even close to trial time.
Imo, they have much more evidence against him than just what we have learned thus far. Imo, what they are going to know about what CC has done to these two beautiful girls is going to be overwhelmingly damaging.
The DA already knows they can prove CC abducted, raped, and murdered Isa. That is why they have attached the death penalty option to her murder as well.
Remember when skinny small framed,old John Couey was able to go through the window of the Lunsford home to kidnap 8 year old Jessica Lunsford taking her out the window, and no one inside heard a thing? Her little dog was in the bed with her, but it never barked. I think dogs can sense evil themselves, and are fearful when they feel it's presence.
Just like other stranger pedophile murderers have done, CC did the same with Isa, and he was a lot younger than aging JC, and larger.
Imo, they control the innocent child by paralyzing fear, and threats. Didn't they find drops of blood in her bedroom. If so, he also probably held a knife to Isa's throat. In all of these cases where pedophiles came into the child's homes, and took them out they did not scream.
Imo, They were too terrified to do so, and serial pedophiles know how to control their abducted victims into being compliant, and following their demands thinking if they do as they demand they won't be harmed.
We see cases where adult female, and male victims did the same thing thinking they would be spared from harm. Yet for a child the fear must be even more terrifying if possible.
Imoo
Child murder cases: What investigators knew
This article says that the samples found on Maribel Gonzalez’s body came back as a partial match for CC and that Isabel Celis’ mother Becky said a man came to the Celis’s house twice to buy an old Acura there. Sergio Celis said the man had made a third offer so CC may have visited their home 3 times. They described the man as looking Hispanic and having facial hair.
Tucson Police records confirm a selfie of Clements showing facial hair. It was taken April 29, 2012---nine days after Isabel disappeared from the family's home.
Because CC was at the Celis’s home 2 or 3 times, I believe Sergio and Becky would have been able to identify him. If this case goes to trial, Becky and Sergio will identify him then.
The first report said LE interviewed 15 RSOs and the second article says Police have reportedly already spoken to 540 registered sex offenders in connection with the girl's disappearance.
Sex offender faces court in case of 2 Arizona girls killed
Isabel Mercedes Celis Case: Police to re-interview sex offenders in search for missing Ariz. girl
This article says that the samples found on Maribel Gonzalez’s body came back as a partial match for CC and that Isabel Celis’ mother Becky said a man came to the Celis’s house twice to buy an old Acura there. Sergio Celis said the man had made a third offer so CC may have visited their home 3 times. They described the man as looking Hispanic and having facial hair.
Tucson Police records confirm a selfie of Clements showing facial hair. It was taken April 29, 2012---nine days after Isabel disappeared from the family's home.
Because CC was at the Celis’s home 2 or 3 times, I believe Sergio and Becky would have been able to identify him. If this case goes to trial, Becky and Sergio will identify him then.
The first report said LE interviewed 15 RSOs and the second article says Police have reportedly already spoken to 540 registered sex offenders in connection with the girl's disappearance.
Sex offender faces court in case of 2 Arizona girls killed
Isabel Mercedes Celis Case: Police to re-interview sex offenders in search for missing Ariz. girl
Registered sex offenders in Tucson, Arizona
Registered sex offenders in Tucson, Arizona - crimes listed, registry-based, living in this city
Arizona Department of Public Safety
Arizona Department of Public Safety OffenderWatch® sex offender management, mapping and email alert program
Registered sex offenders in Tucson, Arizona - crimes listed, registry-based, living in this city
Arizona Department of Public Safety
Arizona Department of Public Safety OffenderWatch® sex offender management, mapping and email alert program
Case filings in Clements’ divorce proceeding show a letter from Casey’s Backhoe Services in Chandler, Arizona, likely verifying Clements’ employment. More recent court filings show that Clements owes $20,542 in back child support stemming from a 2014 court order out of Oregon.
Man charged in killing of Tucson girls has long, cross-country criminal record
Man charged in killing of Tucson girls has long, cross-country criminal record
oceanblueeyes
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2004
- Messages
- 26,446
- Reaction score
- 43,721
Thanks, Crosby for all of your helpful links.
As I read them I also read other related articles.
I had forgotten all the overwhelming support the citizens of Tucson gave the Celis family. Its was refreshing to read about them again, and the outpouring of support they were given where they live in Tucson.
But I'm appalled when reading this particular link.
The TPD had the commingled blood of Maribel, and the murderer back when she was abducted, raped, and murdered by CC, but they made no arrest until 2018??
Does that make sense to anyone?
And now we know he was brought up on federal charges in Arizona for not registering as a sex offender. Ugh it was dropped due to a technicality. Yet it does show LE was aware CC was living in AZ
Did they not even check to see if he may be an absconded sex offender from another state? SMH
None of what the TPD did in these two cases makes any sense to me except to show how lazy, and inept they were in both cases. Imo
It doesn't take 4 years to get the lab results back connecting CC to the rape, and murder of Maribel.
So why was he only charged years later when they had the evidence linking him years before? If I was the Gonzalez family I would be livid.
Imo, they allowed him time to destroy evidence, and the opportunity, and time to do more violent crimes. After all he told his girlfriend there are FOUR bodies in the desert.
Its unbelievable how the TPD handled, and bungled, imo,both cases.
Jmhoo
Crime Keleesi
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2019
- Messages
- 49
- Reaction score
- 530
What DNA evidence do they have?
oceanblueeyes
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2004
- Messages
- 26,446
- Reaction score
- 43,721
I'm sure the TPD will not put out the effort to do more searches in the general areas of the desert where both Maribel, and Isa's remains were found even though the pedophile murderer has proudly proclaimed there are two more bodies he says he has put there.
No wonder he runs his mouth about how he has gotten away with it before, and will get away with it this time. What an evil jerk CC truly is.
It is very common for serial predators to bury their victims in the same general area they consider to be their comfort zone.
CC could have even crossed state lines when abducting, raping, and murdering children then brought their bodies back to be buried with the rest.
They are also known to revisit what they call their boneyard. This way they get to relive the horrors they inflicted on the most innocent.
I think the FBI made a mistake thinking the murderer only preferred children under a certain age. It shows CC does not since there is a wide range between these two victims from 6 years old to 13 years old.
It show the FBI profilers arent always correct, and can be totally wrong on some cases.
Joe Duncan kidnapped, tortured, rape, and murdered children of varying ages, and he did this against both boys, and girls.
I still believe CC is a sexual sadist like JD. So it may behoove the FBI to search for children of both genders in the cities, and states he's been in that may be missing or found murdered where the cases remains unsolved.
As we know CC didnt just stop his predatory ways long ago at the age of 15.
JD when he was only 8 was raping little boys in his neighborhood, and his victims were around 5 years of age at the time. Again, I feel CC is very much like Duncan who kept being released back into society only to do it again, and again.
I have no hope that the TPD will do anything to bring justice to other victims, so I do hope the FBI finds out what all CC has done to many other children, imo. If they do, it's going to be another 'count the bodies' case.
I wouldn't be surprised if he hung around other pedophile sex offenders, and some may have known all along he murdered both girls, and even more victims he boasted he had killed.
Jmho
No wonder he runs his mouth about how he has gotten away with it before, and will get away with it this time. What an evil jerk CC truly is.
It is very common for serial predators to bury their victims in the same general area they consider to be their comfort zone.
CC could have even crossed state lines when abducting, raping, and murdering children then brought their bodies back to be buried with the rest.
They are also known to revisit what they call their boneyard. This way they get to relive the horrors they inflicted on the most innocent.
I think the FBI made a mistake thinking the murderer only preferred children under a certain age. It shows CC does not since there is a wide range between these two victims from 6 years old to 13 years old.
It show the FBI profilers arent always correct, and can be totally wrong on some cases.
Joe Duncan kidnapped, tortured, rape, and murdered children of varying ages, and he did this against both boys, and girls.
I still believe CC is a sexual sadist like JD. So it may behoove the FBI to search for children of both genders in the cities, and states he's been in that may be missing or found murdered where the cases remains unsolved.
As we know CC didnt just stop his predatory ways long ago at the age of 15.
JD when he was only 8 was raping little boys in his neighborhood, and his victims were around 5 years of age at the time. Again, I feel CC is very much like Duncan who kept being released back into society only to do it again, and again.
I have no hope that the TPD will do anything to bring justice to other victims, so I do hope the FBI finds out what all CC has done to many other children, imo. If they do, it's going to be another 'count the bodies' case.
I wouldn't be surprised if he hung around other pedophile sex offenders, and some may have known all along he murdered both girls, and even more victims he boasted he had killed.
Jmho
Last edited:
MummyRatcliffe
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2018
- Messages
- 262
- Reaction score
- 1,568
Sorry this is not aimed at me but as far as I’m aware the only DNA is what was found on Maribel which matched CC with a 1 in 8600 certainty. Of course there could be much more that we don’t know of, but that’s the most I’ve read regarding DNA in these cases
Crime Keleesi
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2019
- Messages
- 49
- Reaction score
- 530
Thanks, that's what I was thinking, but when it was mentioned I thought maybe there was some DNA in Isabel's case that I hadn't heard of.
Kittybunny
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2015
- Messages
- 1,731
- Reaction score
- 20,552
I'm not sure how old you are, but my mom (who is 73) always says the same thing of my niece who is 4 and chunky (her granddaughter) and has trouble lifting her but I don't and my boyfriend throws her up in the air like a ragdoll. She also says many things are heavy and then when I go to pick them up I'm like really??? I think as we get older our muscles weaken. (No offense intended if you are a weightlifter!) Also, never underestimate how much stronger men are than women, especially with one with adrenalin coursing through his veins. Also, I'm sure poor Isa froze in fear. She was probably asleep and he clapped his hand hard over her mouth and told her to be quiet or else...
People also underestimate that fight or flight aren't the only response to dangerous threats - much more likely is FREEZE in fear. People are so startled and scared that they try to scream, nothing comes out. And if there is a weapon involved, first instinct is too comply.
Also I feel absolutely sick about reading about his searches for "Isabelle Celis sexy" on the internet (posted in that article above). This was one sick deranged individual!
You know you are right, I never thought of it that way. Poor Isabelle. Horrifying to say the least.
Here is ABC15's interview with Derrick Brady, one of the 2 inmates who confronted Christopher Clements outside of his jail cell when police announced Clements was being charged in the murders of the two girls. It also contains a hand- written letter by Brady. Cole Spencer, another inmate, also agreed to speak with ABC15, but his interview could not be set up in time before publication.
Clements did not discuss other specific states or crimes to Brady or Spencer. Brady said they didn’t give him the opportunity because they had heard enough.
BRADY: Me and my celly (sic) assaulted him and beat the (expletive) out of him.
Celis, Gonzalez murder suspect may have more victims
Clements did not discuss other specific states or crimes to Brady or Spencer. Brady said they didn’t give him the opportunity because they had heard enough.
BRADY: Me and my celly (sic) assaulted him and beat the (expletive) out of him.
Celis, Gonzalez murder suspect may have more victims
Last edited:
How did the Celis's children get to school. Did they walk, ride a school bus, or did their parents drive them?
In order to search Clement's car, LE need a search warrant right? They had one for the yard of Clement's fiance which is where the purple sweatshirt and a bag with a piece of paper with 'Mercedes' name on it was found.
Has LE tested Clement's car for evidence?
In order to search Clement's car, LE need a search warrant right? They had one for the yard of Clement's fiance which is where the purple sweatshirt and a bag with a piece of paper with 'Mercedes' name on it was found.
Has LE tested Clement's car for evidence?
Last edited:
MummyRatcliffe
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2018
- Messages
- 262
- Reaction score
- 1,568
According to another ex inmate of CC he claims the trunk of his car had evidence pertinent to this crime and it was in the police impound and CC got that car released by LE as part of the deal when he got his burglary charges dropped for leading them to Isabel. It’s never been revealed if that car was ever recovered after he had it released to his fiancée but if I was to hazard a guess I’d say it’s long gone now.
oceanblueeyes
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2004
- Messages
- 26,446
- Reaction score
- 43,721
Hi there!
Since the burglary deal was totally separate from the murder charges, I think LE duped him by releasing the car for the burglary plea deal when they knew all along they now suspected him of being the double murderer.
If they released it to his ex I'm sure she has told the FBI where the car could be located.
I would be extremely surprised if they didn't turn around, and impounded the vehicle again which would be totally legal since the plea deal only involved burglary. No deal was made concerning the murder charges.
Imo they went to a judge to impound the vehicle again based on completely separate charges altogether.
Was CC ever out to retrieve his vehicle? If not his ex is a cooperating witness for the state, and will testify about his vehicle, what happened to it, and if he told her it had damaging evidence in it telling her to clean it. Etc.
That will be very powerful damaging evidence of guilt against CC.
Imo, she knows a lot, and by the time she testifies the jury will be sickened by what she said he told her along with the personal items belonging to his 6 year old murder victim being found in her yard. All of it will reveal revolting facts about this predator monster.
So even if they were unable to find his vehicle it will not save him from being convicted or not from being sent to death row.
However since it was close in time from the burglary deal to when he was charged with double murder I do believe LE located the vehicle, and it's been impounded again on the other charges. They may have even surveilled the vehicle to make sure they kept track of what was done once released.
Imo, The vehicle was what he used to kidnap his victims, and also transport their bodies to the desert after raping them.. So it would then become evidence in the murder case itself now, and no longer attached to the burglary charge.
Imo, based on decades of my own experience following cases like this the DA has an overwhelming amount of evidence they aren't going to disclose to the public for there is no need to do so. The DA will be presented as it is always done which will be in the death penalty trial when held.
There is also a very good possibilty the kiddie *advertiser censored* pics found on his computer may contain his victims. He is a real sicko. We already know he thought of his murder victim as sexy. This shows what a sexual depraved deviant CC was to lust for an innocent little six year old baby girl.
What the public knows now is just the tip of the iceberg.
Jmho
Last edited:
MummyRatcliffe
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2018
- Messages
- 262
- Reaction score
- 1,568
Hi Ocean, I really hope you’re right and LE did manage to recover the vehicle again and have evidence linking CC to both crimes and possibly more. It is much better evidence than hearsay from other witnesses so it’d be wonderful if they managed to get the vehicle back in their custody. I’ve a feeling CC got that vehicle back to his fiancée and got her to have it crushed/scrapped or burnt tho, her being unaware of the reason at the time why he needed it gone. He’d be a fool to make a deal to get it back and then not destroy any evidence linking him to these crimes.
oceanblueeyes
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2004
- Messages
- 26,446
- Reaction score
- 43,721
Thank you for your well thought out post.
I would think his ex would want to sell the vehicle outright where she would make much more profit than for what she would get at a scrap metal yard. Who knows she may have needed the vehicle herself, and kept it. What excuse did he give LE for the car being returned to his girlfriend? Did he tell them she needed it for work? IDRK, but it's highly likely. I don't get the feeling his ex helped him destroy anything. Deep down she had to know he was the one involved in these cases. He made it pretty evident. I dont think many boast to their girlfriend or boyfriend they have more bodies buried in certain areas. Like what often happens she may have been fearful to come forward sooner. After all he told her he had killed before, and may have told her if she repeated anything he told her the same thing would happen to her. I can see why she would be very fearful of CC.
So I'm not convinced she did everything he told her to do. It seems if she was doing everything he directed her to do he would have her remove, and destroy Isa's personal items he knew he had buried in her yard.
That is very damaging evidence. Imo, even if she got rid of the vehicle LE still found serious evidence that links CC to little Isa's murder. The computer evidence is also very damaging evidence for CC so seems his girlfriend had no part in destroying any of that evidence either.
As for hearsay there are many exceptions to the hearsay rule, and her testimony will not be what she heard from others anyway, but the defendant directly said these things to HER.
That is why she is testifying against CC in the trial involving everything he told her, and what was found in her own yard that CC put there.
Jmho
MummyRatcliffe
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2018
- Messages
- 262
- Reaction score
- 1,568
I’m not implying CC fiancée would knowingly destroy evidence linking CC to children’s murders. If she did have the vehicle destroyed I’m sure she did it due to him convincing her it tied him to a much less heinous crime or just purely fear of him. Again I do hope you’re right and LE have that vehicle and any evidence it contains as it’s without doubt highly incriminating evidence against him.
- Status
DNASolves
Staff online
-
CarlK90245UID Moderator
Online statistics
- Members online
- 131
- Guests online
- 604
- Total visitors
- 735