GUILTY AZ - Three die in sweat lodge during spiritual retreat, Yavapai County, 8 Oct 2009

[SuziQ]

"So much fun they chose not to come back." Sure, tell that to the victims' family. I'm sure they will accept that reason for losing their loved ones.
UGH!

I can only imagine what Mr. Brown's cousin thought when he heard that. No wonder he contacted the press and gave them the transcript of the call.

 

[Penelope]

I can only imagine what Mr. Brown's cousin thought when he heard that. No wonder he contacted the press and gave them the transcript of the call.

Based on these reports, it seems that Ray is doing damage control and has actually been successful with some of the participants. What new-age psycho babble!! In a "real" sweat lodge, the purpose is not to kill or encourage people to leave their bodies and not come back. Elders always say that a lodge that is not run properly can cause harm to people, and IMO that is what happened. Ray is no better than a snake oil salesman.

 

[azwriter]

This same kind of thing happened 9 years ago to 10 year old Candace Newmaker. She died during a pseudoscientifiic "therapy" called rebirthing done to treat attachment disorder. Rebirthing involved wrapping the young girl in a flannel sheet and having grown adults press pillows down upon her until she was able to crawl out and be "rebirthed".

The therapists called Candace a quitter when she stopped struggling and asked if she wanted to die, then mocked her when they unwrapped her and found her in a pool of vomit. The two rebirthing therapists were sentenced to 16 years in prison each for Candace's death. One was parolled after 7 years. Rebirthing is now illegal in Colorado, where this happened.

Chili, Thanks for posting this. I've never heard of a "rebirthing" therapy. And, maybe it's just me, but it sounds stupid and dangerous. I am very shocked at the gimmicks these so called self-help professionals pull on people who are in need of real help. They are preying on weak people! That's sick and should be illegal.

 

[sniperacer]

<snip>
A woman identified as Barb told the callers that a channeler at the retreat said the deceased had an out-of-body experience during the ceremony and “were having so much fun that they chose not to come back.”

What a great line for a funeral.

"The deceased had an out-of-body experience and is having so much fun that they chose not to come back".

 

[AlwaysShocked]

Now I ask you, does not everyone know that we all need to breathe in oxygen in order to live? That we don't cover our heads with plastic bags?

The "poisoned air" in this "sweat lodge" (that these dumbazzes paid $9000 to go into) was "poisoned" with carbone dioxide - which is what we all breathe OUT!

How can people be this absolutely stupid? (And yes, I feel sorry for the families. But in a lot of ways, the victims would qualify for a Darwin Award!)

 

[azwriter]

Now I ask you, does not everyone know that we all need to breathe in oxygen in order to live? That we don't cover our heads with plastic bags?

The "poisoned air" in this "sweat lodge" (that these dumbazzes paid $9000 to go into) was "poisoned" with carbone dioxide - which is what we all breathe OUT!
How can people be this absolutely stupid? (And yes, I feel sorry for the families. But in a lot of ways, the victims would qualify for a Darwin Award!)

In a criptic sort of way, your observation is right on. Too bad these people didn't have as much smarts and caution as they did money. But I still place the blame on the leader Ray. And hope he pays for his tragedy.
jmo

 

[Penelope]

Now I ask you, does not everyone know that we all need to breathe in oxygen in order to live? That we don't cover our heads with plastic bags?

The "poisoned air" in this "sweat lodge" (that these dumbazzes paid $9000 to go into) was "poisoned" with carbone dioxide - which is what we all breathe OUT!

How can people be this absolutely stupid? (And yes, I feel sorry for the families. But in a lot of ways, the victims would qualify for a Darwin Award!)

I am not sure about them being poisoned by carbon dioxide from exhaled air.

I have participated in many sweat lodges over the years -- and my Native American husband did cover his lodge with plastic as a final layer. After bending and tying the saplings, we would put layers of blankets and quilts on top, then a final layer of 5-mil plastic sheeting. Our lodge was a "permanent" lodge -- it stayed on our property, covered, and was used at least once every couple of weeks.

The plastic outer coating did not affect the air inside my husband's lodge, and air and steam still escaped through the bottom and the doorway during the ceremony. However, things that would affect the air quality (and sometimes cause choking), were
-- if you did not brush off the rocks before bringing them in, and there was soot left on them, people would cough and choke once the water was poured on
-- if the lodge holder sprinkled some herb or something on the hot rocks, this could create caustic fumes, depending on the substance
-- if the rocks had sulphur in them, the steam would get a rotten egg-like sulphur smell.

I believe it may have been a combination of factors, including that it was hot, the people were in there too long, and maybe something was sprinkled on the rocks that caused some bad fumes.

BTW -- a young man who used to come to our lodge decided to build his own. He used PVC plastic instead of saplings. When he used the lodge for the first time, the PVC melted and the lodge collapsed on top of him. When he told my husband about it, my husband just shook his head. Later, he told me "that is why people who are not trained properly should not be building or running lodges." The lodge Ray had built was obviously not built properly, because you would be hard pressed to find bendable saplings for a lodge that size. Maybe he used pressure-treated lumber!

 

[Boyz_Mum]

BTW -- a young man who used to come to our lodge decided to build his own. He used PVC plastic instead of saplings. When he used the lodge for the first time, the PVC melted and the lodge collapsed on top of him. When he told my husband about it, my husband just shook his head. Later, he told me "that is why people who are not trained properly should not be building or running lodges." The lodge Ray had built was obviously not built properly, because you would be hard pressed to find bendable saplings for a lodge that size. Maybe he used pressure-treated lumber!

Snipped for space. Penelope, thanks so much for sharing your experiences and those of your husband. It's very important, IMO, that you are getting some of these experiences "out here", I am hoping that people take your experiences and are a little more wary about participating in practices like this.

I totally agree with your husband's thought. People who are not trained properly, should not be building lodges or running them.

 

[SuziQ]

3rd person dies in Ariz. sweat lodge ceremony case

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=157&sid=8242187

 

[PattyCake]

3rd person dies in Ariz. sweat lodge ceremony case

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=157&sid=8242187

Oh NO

 

[Boyz_Mum]

3rd person dies in Ariz. sweat lodge ceremony case

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=157&sid=8242187

This is so sad.

I pray that Ray is somehow held responsible and justice is served for those who have passed away.

 

[SuziQ]

Lawsuit Planned in Sweat Lodge Death of Minnesota Woman

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,568445,00.html

 

[PTC]

Lawsuit Planned in Sweat Lodge Death of Minnesota Woman

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,568445,00.html

The loss of life is tragic. Other than recognizing him from the movie "The Secret", I know nothing of Ray or his organization. But in light of Ms Neuman's passing, I found the following interesting:

From the above link: "Neuman was among Ray's earliest followers and had attended dozens of his events.

According to Ray's Web site, Neuman was the leader of the Minneapolis-area "Journey Expansion Team." The teams, developed by Ray's friends and followers around the country, meet to exchange ideas on his principles.

It sounds as though Ms Neuman was very well acquainted with Ray and his methods, and seems quite likely that she had attended several similar sweat lodges under his direction in the past. In fact, it would appear that she was deeply involved with Ray's organization and, had she not passed away, she may well have faced homicide charges along with Ray.

Now her family plans to sue Ray?

Classy.

Many people don't like this Ray character. I've heard it said that he charges too much, and that he's a fake. While that may be true, does that make him a murderer? Why? Because he conducted a sweat lodge without being an Indian? News flash: A sweat lodge is nothing more than a rudimentary sauna, and similar structures have been built and used by different peoples all over the world for thousands of years.

American Indians have no patent on the concept.

There is nothing inherently dangerous about sweat lodges. I've attended several myself that were run by highly esteemed Apache elders. At times we had as many as 40 people packed into inipis that were much smaller than those used by Ray's group. And those I attended were also covered by plastic tarps and blankets- just like the one in question.

Thousands of sweats are conducted every year without incident, AND without "permits". Something went horribly wrong in that lodge, and I doubt seriously that Ray or any of his team were at fault.

It wasn't that long ago that people still believed in the idea that accidents can happen, and when they did, they provided one another with sympathy, compassion, love and support. These days everyone wants vengeance, blood, and if possible, $$$$$$$.

I don't know about the others, but Neuman clearly knew what to expect as well as Ray did. She was a player, and her family would be every bit as justified in suing her corpse as in suing Ray.

 

[SuziQ]

Family Not Notified of Victim's Fate By Sweat Lodge Organizers

http://www.prescottenews.com/news/l...f-victims-fate-by-sweat-lodge-organizers.html

 

[SuziQ]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/20/earlyshow/main5400758.shtml

(snip)
McFeeley said, "We've talked to many people in the lodge. And what we found out is that it was a very confusing scene because people were passing out and coming to. There were a lot of people who wanted to leave the tent, wanted to leave the lodge, but when people could leave was controlled by James Ray."

Ray, McFeeley said, was at the door.

"You could you only leave after each session, this was about 15 minutes, and he controlled when the session was over and how long that door stayed open, so we believe there were very dangerous decisions made by him about when people were allowed to exit, re-enter to help other people out," McFeeley said. "We have very serious concerns about those questions."

McFeeley added that Ray was inadequate to do the things he did on the retreat.

"I think when you see someone who writes books and has CDs and has been on 'Oprah,' I think you make an assumption about their qualifications," he said.

McFeeley said he believes three people who died in the sweat lodge were "definitely murdered."

 

[coklat]

First sweat lodge survivor speaks out:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091021/ap_on_re_us/us_sweat_lodge_deaths

(snip)
Within an hour of entering the sweat lodge, people began vomiting, gasping for air and collapsing. Yet Bunn says Ray continually urged everyone to stay inside. The ceremony was broken up into 15-minute "rounds," with the entrance flap to the lodge opened briefly and more heated rocks brought inside between sessions.

"I can't get her to move. I can't get her to wake up," Bunn recalls hearing from two sides of the 415-square-foot sweat lodge. Ray's response: "Leave her alone, she'll be dealt with in the next round."
(end snip)

Pretty damning. It's heartbreaking to hear about how the participants tried to save themselves by moving near the door or opening flaps for air, only to be scolded by Ray.

 

[Penelope]

First sweat lodge survivor speaks out:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091021/ap_on_re_us/us_sweat_lodge_deaths

(snip)
Within an hour of entering the sweat lodge, people began vomiting, gasping for air and collapsing. Yet Bunn says Ray continually urged everyone to stay inside. The ceremony was broken up into 15-minute "rounds," with the entrance flap to the lodge opened briefly and more heated rocks brought inside between sessions.

"I can't get her to move. I can't get her to wake up," Bunn recalls hearing from two sides of the 415-square-foot sweat lodge. Ray's response: "Leave her alone, she'll be dealt with in the next round."
(end snip)

Pretty damning. It's heartbreaking to hear about how the participants tried to save themselves by moving near the door or opening flaps for air, only to be scolded by Ray.

IMO, Ray's actions are criminal. The survivor's account illustrates to me how Ray should NEVER be allowed to run another Sweat Lodge.

From personal experience I know how hard it is to be in a Sweat Lodge after a fast. And when my husband would put us out to fast, we were not allowed to eat anything until after the final sweat lodge ceremony was over. Of course, he was very gentle with us in the final sweat. Even though it would get hot, he would keep the rounds short and allow us to go outside between them and to drink medicine tea or a little bit of water (not too much or we could get sick). Sometimes he did "double doors" or double rounds so the lodge only lasted for about 30 minutes.

Ray, on the other hand, deliberately made it difficult for the participants -- keeping them in and deriding them if they wanted to leave. The fact that he told participants that he would deal with the unconscious person in the next round is OUTRAGEOUS and shows he had no compassion or caring for human life. No traditionally trained Elder and/or Sweat Lodge holder would act like that -- they would have stopped everything and tended to that person. Of course, they would never have let it get that far.

It is sad that these people totally trusted Ray -- they did not know any better. My husband taught me that people who try to get you to do things through fear, anger or humiliation are dangerous and not to be trusted. The true teachers and healers use kindness, caring, sharing and truth -- four things that Ray lacked.

 

[Velouria]

IMO, Ray's actions are criminal. The survivor's account illustrates to me how Ray should NEVER be allowed to run another Sweat Lodge.
.

Agreed Penelope. IMO, he needs to do all his sweating behind bars from now on.

 

[Danaya]

I was in a sweat lodge five years ago with native 'elders' and almost felt like I was going to suffocate. It was very hot and scary, I was only 16. They didn't let me leave and I made it until the end, afterwards I felt refreshed but would not do one again. I would stick to a sauna but I hate being overheated as it makes me sick.

 

[Penelope]

I was in a sweat lodge five years ago with native 'elders' and almost felt like I was going to suffocate. It was very hot and scary, I was only 16. They didn't let me leave and I made it until the end, afterwards I felt refreshed but would not do one again. I would stick to a sauna but I hate being overheated as it makes me sick.

I am sorry you had such an experience in a sweat lodge, Danaya. Unfortunately, some lodge holders can be very strict and will not let anyone leave once the door is closed until the round is ended. Others will let someone out when they want to leave. Understand that it is a ceremony and some lodge holders are taught that they have to finish the song they are singing before they can open the door. Others, like my late husband, do healing work in the lodge and cannot just stop and suddenly open the door because that can cause harm to themselves and the person being healed. There are "supernatural" things that go on in lodges and sometimes miracles of healing can occur in them if the person running the lodge is a true healer or medicine person.

There were times in the lodge with my husband when we could not open the door during the round -- if a person got frightened or was having trouble, the people inside the lodge would talk to them and help them by holding their hand or directing them to lay down on the floor where the cooler air is, and fanning them with the eagle wing. We would tell people beforehand that once the door was shut they had to make it through that round and then they could leave -- but a round was only 15 minutes or so, not 2 hours.