AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #5

[fran]

Hey Fran - it is very very common for children's psych records to be sealed in criminal cases. Again - this is usually for the protection of the child. I doubt we will ever see those records but I do not consider that strange or think that subterfuge is involved.

IMHO, all these adults closest to this boy's case (Judge, Pros, his attorneys) are rule protecting him - I believe they know he's guilty, but they have hope that they can get him help. In the few pieces of information that continue to emerge, I don't see an innocent boy being railroaded, I see a guilty boy trying to be helped.

Oh, but they say he's old enough to sign a plea deal without the court appointed GAL or his mother's permission?

Sorry, he's either a child or an adult. Can't have it both ways.

There's absolutely no reason to 'seal' any of the records. They sure didn't hesitate to release 100's of pages thus far.

What are they hiding?

JMHO
fran

PS......There's NOT one thing that they've done this far, IMHO, to help the boy. NOT ONE THING..fran

 

[colette]

I'd say the boy got helped a great deal, he could be locked in juvie until 18 then on to adult prison. He will be out, living with mom and getting mental help.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Oh, but they say he's old enough to sign a plea deal without the court appointed GAL or his mother's permission?

Sorry, he's either a child or an adult. Can't have it both ways.

There's absolutely no reason to 'seal' any of the records. They sure didn't hesitate to release 100's of pages thus far.

What are they hiding?

JMHO
fran

PS......There's NOT one thing that they've done this far, IMHO, to help the boy. NOT ONE THING..fran

There isn't one single thing I agree with you on in this case, NOT ONE.

I don't think that's ever happened before....:snooty:

 

[southcitymom]

That is the way I see it too.

I still do not believe this child is the only very young juvenile to plead guilty in the AZ juvenile court system though.

I think Judge Roca was very aware of that when he accepted the boy's plea deal.

And I still believe that Roca would have taken the more precautionary route since this case involved two premeditated homicides instead of lessor charges and he would have ruled that he be reassessed in 240 days. I do believe that all parties involved have had other cases involving juvenile defendants and they all know this plea will stand. I think they had other case law that they reviewed.

The boy's age right from the get go became the crux of this case and its disposition. He was too young to be placed with other youthful offenders in a detention facility who are older than him. Roca said that the juvenile system is not set up to handle cases like this one.

I think all parties wholeheartedly agreed that he is guilty of these crimes but knows that in the best interest of the child that he be given extensive mental therapy hoping and praying that he is treatable and can become a productive member of society once he is cut loose from his rigid probation at the age of 18.

ITA! And I believe why the other evidence is sealed tight too is also in the best interest of the child that it remains hidden and unknown except to the legally authorized parties.

imo

We are on the same page with this and have been from the beginning, I think. All of these officers of the Court have experience with juvenile crimes and I trust they have crafted something that will stand.

I am extremely heartened by the way this case has been handled in Court. Whether or not individual young children who commit terrible crimes can be helped, I appreciate our justice system's hope for that possibility.

 

[southcitymom]

Remember one thing about this boy... he really could not stop talking. He was talking to the police about his Dad's cell phone, someone else about the spankings, he probably did all kinds of talking that didn't help his case.

Another good point I agree with. This boy was a talker and I think he had a lot more to say after the cameras were turned off.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Remember one thing about this boy... he really could not stop talking. He was talking to the police about his Dad's cell phone, someone else about the spankings, he probably did all kinds of talking that didn't help his case.

Now that you mentioned it.........when I read the new report on the status hearing I noticed that the boy's attorney protested him having any contact with family members. I would think those family members were ones from the Romero side of the family and I think it is for the reason that you have mentioned. I think the attorneys know this boy is prone to run his mouth and they worry if he may say something that would further incriminate him.

Wood still protested even when the DA stated he would not hold anything against the boy if he were to talk to his family.

Since Roca told the boy that if he violated any part of the probation they would be back to square one, it makes me wonder if the defense attorneys feel very comfortable whether he can keep his nose clean for 9 years until the probation ends and this will once again fall into their laps again.

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/default.aspx

I think this boy has told several people what he did not just LE or the caseworker.

imo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Oh, but they say he's old enough to sign a plea deal without the court appointed GAL or his mother's permission?

Sorry, he's either a child or an adult. Can't have it both ways.

There's absolutely no reason to 'seal' any of the records. They sure didn't hesitate to release 100's of pages thus far.

What are they hiding?

JMHO
fran

PS......There's NOT one thing that they've done this far, IMHO, to help the boy. NOT ONE THING..fran

You may disagree with Arizona lawmakers but the law is the law. A GAL nor a parent has any say so in a plea deal. Only a defendant knows if they are guilty or not.......not a mother or a GAL that was assigned after the murders happened.

I have never seen a case where all discovery was revealed once a plea deal is done. That is why in many cases that ends in a plea deal we hope that it will be a State where the defendant has to stand before court and tell how they committed the crime. Evidently AZ in not one of those states. All he had to admit to JR was that he did something dangerous and reckless causing the death of Tim Romans.

Oh I think there has been a lot to help this boy. They think it is in his best interest to keep the details of what he did sealed and the State of AZ is going to pay for his mental therapy for the next 9 years.

And defendant, young or old, would have loved to have been treated this way in the justice system.

imoo

 

[fran]

If I was this child's mother, I would NOT want the boy in contact with any member of the Romero extended family. I know many won't agree with me, so be it. I'm sure my reason isn't what you think, either.

I don't trust any of them. Just like the officers feared for his safety that first morning after the murders, leaving that child there while they went to retrieve his clothes with his stepmom. They truly feared for his life.

At the very least, I might agree, IF it was supervised,..... by an armed officer.

I'm serious. IMHO, there's a murderer walking free among the citizens of St. John. Someone knows something and may fear this child will someday remember what he saw that day. Remember who.................

JMHO
fran

PS....for the record, I'm not accusing anyone..............that's the problem.........no one knows........fran

 

[oceanblueeyes]

If I was this child's mother, I would NOT want the boy in contact with any member of the Romero extended family. I know many won't agree with me, so be it. I'm sure my reason isn't what you think, either.

I don't trust any of them. Just like the officers feared for his safety that first morning after the murders, leaving that child there while they went to retrieve his clothes with his stepmom. They truly feared for his life.

At the very least, I might agree, IF it was supervised,..... by an armed officer.

I'm serious. IMHO, there's a murderer walking free among the citizens of St. John. Someone knows something and may fear this child will someday remember what he saw that day. Remember who.................

JMHO
fran

PS....for the record, I'm not accusing anyone..............that's the problem.........no one knows........fran

You aren't? :waitasec: Then why have you just stated that the Romeros cant be trusted?

Two LE personnel feared for his life because they thought that a murderer was out there when the case was first unfolding. Shortly thereafter they learned it was the boy, himself, who couldn't be trusted and HE was the murderer not the eye witness victim as he claimed. So similar to so many cases where the suspect tries to protray themselves as a victim only to be the actual murderer, themselves.

I am glad Roca overruled Wood and stated he could see his family on his dad's side so JR doesn't see them as dangerous nor thinks they cant be trusted.

imo

 

[fran]

Well, they've sealed all the records so we don't know what they've checked out and what they haven't. Just because some people disregard everything that points to someone other than the child, doesn't mean everyone does.
Doubt the mom does.

I would HOPE, if the child doesn't want to see someone, that the court won't MAKE him visit with them.

Wonder what happened to all the unaccounted for 22 guns?

JMHO
fran

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Well, they've sealed all the records so we don't know what they've checked out and what they haven't. Just because some people disregard everything that points to someone other than the child, doesn't mean everyone does.
Doubt the mom does.

I would HOPE, if the child doesn't want to see someone, that the court won't MAKE him visit with them.

Wonder what happened to all the unaccounted for 22 guns?

JMHO
fran

I agree....we don't know and we don't investigate but we do know that law enforcement does. This investigation wasn't all done by the SJPD not by a long shot. Its main thorough investigation is in those 2000+ DPS state agency reports, imo. Many that we are not able to see are all the forensic results or the total investigation done.

Why would you think this child would not want to see any of the family that was constantly in his life all of his life? What the mom's wants is immaterial. The Judge approved it. He is under the direction of the Court. I bet he does want to see them and his grandmother and aunt has visited him while he was in detention. Since they are the ones left to wrestle with the fact that he took his father's life I could understand why they would not want to see him. But I think they are good people with the faith of God in their hearts and they love him no matter what. He should thank his lucky stars that they still do.

Since we are not privy to all the details we don't know if the guns were ever really missing. Leroy may have already picked up the gun that belonged to him before this even happened. And I never saw any of the witnesses say that Tim had a .22. I thought they said he had two higher caliber guns. If he had a .22 in the past he could have sold it way before this happened or traded the .22 plus given some cash to boot for the higher powered weapon his friends said he had.

imoo

 

[southcitymom]

Do we know a date for final sentencing?

 

[fran]

I agree....we don't know and we don't investigate but we do know that law enforcement does. This investigation wasn't all done by the SJPD not by a long shot. Its main thorough investigation is in those 2000+ DPS state agency reports, imo. Many that we are not able to see are all the forensic results or the total investigation done.

Why would you think this child would not want to see any of the family that was constantly in his life all of his life? What the mom's wants is immaterial. The Judge approved it. He is under the direction of the Court. I bet he does want to see them and his grandmother and aunt has visited him while he was in detention. Since they are the ones left to wrestle with the fact that he took his father's life I could understand why they would not want to see him. But I think they are good people with the faith of God in their hearts and they love him no matter what. He should thank his lucky stars that they still do.

Since we are not privy to all the details we don't know if the guns were ever really missing. Leroy may have already picked up the gun that belonged to him before this even happened. And I never saw any of the witnesses say that Tim had a .22. I thought they said he had two higher caliber guns. If he had a .22 in the past he could have sold it way before this happened or traded the .22 plus given some cash to boot for the higher powered weapon his friends said he had.

imoo

What I find disturbing is that so many are quickly able to dismiss those missing 22 guns and ASSUME that LE has investigated their where-abouts and declare this child guilty. They just know it.

This case has made me question our legal system all together. I wonder just how MANY innocent men are behind bars.

I know one thing, I am now NOT for the DP.

Woulda', Coulda', Shoulda', doesn't cut it for me in a criminal case. Not even close.

JMHO
fran

PS......we do NOT know that law enforcement knows anything. I haven't seen one thing St. John's PD has done right yet. They don't even give follow-up questions in their alleged 'witness' interrogation of this child.....Oh, except for what THEY wanted him to say. Puhleeezzz......

PPS......You KNOW he wants to see the Romeros?????? Do you have a link? or are you just saying that? This is how rumors have abounded in this case, everyone THINKS they know what this child {thinks} and forget FACTS, just give 'em a {rumor}...fran

 

[fran]

FYI, it appears this child's records have been sealed on order of the court. IMHO, this would have been part of the pros plea deal. But, this does NOT permanently seal this child's record. It seals it from further being placed on the open court docket thing the pros set up especially for this child's case. Authorized persons can obtain access to his file.

After looking around today, I have found NOTHING that is to prevent this child's mom from hiring someone to review the case and possibly appeal the conviction. There was no stipulation in the plea deal preventing an appeal. The court would most likely give access to an officer of the court, ie attorney, to review the file.

I would imagine if the judge denied access to an attorney possibly working on behalf of this child, enough has been released to raise the question of whether the case was fully investigated. The appearance is NO, IMHO, and the only way to prove it was investigated fully, would be for a representative of the child's to review it. ie...the Innocence Project.

Seeeeee..........'sealing the file,' from what I could tell, doesn't PERMANENTLY seal it. Just for now and FROM anyone not officially having to do with the case or this child (such as a psychiatrist etc).

This case will follow this child his entire life. I don't believe they can 'expunge' this serious of a conviction. This would or COULD, cause this child an adulthood of menial jobs, living in a lower-class existance, because he made a decision to sign something, he may not have even understood WHAT? it was, when he was nine yo.

JMHO
fran

 

[Linda7NJ]

sniped

This case will follow this child his entire life. I don't believe they can 'expunge' this serious of a conviction. This would or COULD, cause this child an adulthood of menial jobs, living in a lower-class existance, because he made a decision to sign something, he may not have even understood WHAT? it was, when he was nine yo.

JMHO
fran

At Least he still has a life, unlike his victims. IMO

He knew he did it and he knew going to trial wouldn't be in his best interest. He plead guilty because he is. IMO

Still don't understand why you go to such extremes to defend this child. Something his own mother is not willing to do. IMO

She's "content" with the results.

 

[fran]

At Least he still has a life, unlike his victims. IMO

He knew he did it and he knew going to trial wouldn't be in his best interest. He plead guilty because he is. IMO

Still don't understand why you go to such extremes to defend this child. Something his own mother is not willing to do. IMO

She's "content" with the results.

Do you have a link to this 'content' remark?

fran

 

[Linda7NJ]

Do you have a link to this 'content' remark?

fran

Go check out:eye: her MySpace page. She's been CONTENT since the 5th

 

[oceanblueeyes]

What I find disturbing is that so many are quickly able to dismiss those missing 22 guns and ASSUME that LE has investigated their where-abouts and declare this child guilty. They just know it.

This case has made me question our legal system all together. I wonder just how MANY innocent men are behind bars.

I know one thing, I am now NOT for the DP.

Woulda', Coulda', Shoulda', doesn't cut it for me in a criminal case. Not even close.

JMHO
fran

PS......we do NOT know that law enforcement knows anything. I haven't seen one thing St. John's PD has done right yet. They don't even give follow-up questions in their alleged 'witness' interrogation of this child.....Oh, except for what THEY wanted him to say. Puhleeezzz......

PPS......You KNOW he wants to see the Romeros?????? Do you have a link? or are you just saying that? This is how rumors have abounded in this case, everyone THINKS they know what this child {thinks} and forget FACTS, just give 'em a {rumor}...fran

And DPS investigation report of over 2,000+ pages is far from being dismissive of anything. I think it was over investigated due to it being a high profile case.

I don't think Roca would force the boy if he did not want to see his dad's side of the family. I don't see why you think he wouldn't want to see them? Why wouldn't he?:waitasec: They have been very consistent in his life.... not like his mother who popped in an out for years. I think he loves his dad's family very much and has no reason not to........

Why? This case was never a death penalty case to begin with due to his young age.

I don't know what you mean. I think these two female officers were stunned and didn't know what to say after he told them he had shot both Vinnie and Tim. If they were going to coerce him they sure wouldn't have come up with what he told imo.

This is not about coulda/woulda/shoulda...........this is about dida.........and he did admit to homicide in the death of Tim Romans.

imo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Go check out:eye: her MySpace page. She's been CONTENT since the 5th

Hmmm, I thought she was supposed to be highly upset that her son accepted the plea deal. Evidently that must not have been true if she is "content."

imoo

 

[fran]

Go check out:eye: her MySpace page. She's been CONTENT since the 5th

Hmmmm...........I guess I don't have the same MySpace page because the one I know is somehow connected to Eryn says "determined." Last login 3/06/09.

IF there's another and she says "content" since March 5, that's good news!

JMHO
fran

PS........Ok, thanks Linda, I found Eryn's MySpace. Yes, it does say 'determined.' Thanks for the heads up! fran