Babcock Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #5

[MrsThreadgoode]

I'm really looking forward to the next trial. I don't think there's any way around the fact that WM's death was a calculated, planned and deliberate murder. I can only hope there's enough evidence to prove so.

I can’t remember, but I think WM’s was a direct indictment as well? Please correct me if I am wrong. Thank you.


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[MrsThreadgoode]

I have an interesting question that I'm hoping to get some feedback on.

Does anyone think that all these players now understand today how truly insignificant they were to DM? SS, AM, MH, CN, his own parents, and then lastly... MS? Oh, Smichy. DM didn't love you. You weren't his brother. Psychopaths lack the ability to form any real attachment. After all, he was going to try and pin every single crime, on you.

Everyone serves a purpose to DM, until essentially, they no longer do. What happens then? Is it fair to speculate that all these players have come to this understanding today? I can appreciate that this may be unsavoury, even scary, to think about, and likely requires a level of awareness, rationality or critical thought that many of them don't possess or don't want to exercise.

Thoughts?

Well, one can hope. I think perhaps a couple of them.

And I would also personally classify CN as a sociopath ... she certainly has not one iota of empathy for anyone, and is concerned solely with herself. She is hopeless and will never ever admit responsibility for her own atrocious actions, IMHO. If she never takes a step toward that, she will remain a hopeless cause.


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[Oreck]

I can’t remember, but I think WM’s was a direct indictment as well? Please correct me if I am wrong. Thank you.


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Also right after the CN search so maybe also a result of the letters?

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

For those that feels MS’s confession was merely bragging to look tough to some kids..

When someone helps procure an illegal handgun, helps obtain and test “with bones” a commercial incinerator with no defendable legit purpose, is in same location of the victim at her last trackable mouments, helps test the incinerator (with what is believed to be female human bones by a top expert), gleefully documents the whole experience in pic and videos, writes a detailed rap song that corresponds with every piece of available evidence, has possession of the last known items to be on the victims person..

My opinion is that when that same person brags in detail about that exact crime to look bad *advertiser censored* to a group of high school kids it becomes pretty hard for him or his supporters to complain about unfair process and unfair assumptions. It gets to the point that even if in the 1 in a million chance he wasn’t involved in the plan and he just bragged to look cool then.. CHARGES, TRIAL AND A M1 CONVICTION.. Sorry buddy, guess that’s just part of the occupational hazard of the illegal gun buying, girl body incinerating, murder rap writing, brag confessing, badass gangsta lifestyle I suppose. Unfortunately choices do have consequences

Again “beyond reasonable doubt on the totality of the evidence” is the standard. Not “is there any far flung but remotley possible explaination that might explain away a particular piece of the key evidence”

It’s designed that way to strike a balance between the threat of wrongful convictions to innocent people and the threat of releasing dangerous criminals to prey upon more unsuspecting victims

So well said ... couldn’t possibly agree with you more.


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[MrsThreadgoode]

I agree 100% with your link

20 years ago right back to way beyond 200 years before that, it would have been absolutely impossible to have near the amount and variety of evidence against an accused killer that we have against MS in this trail.

Yet convictions still happened.

Please show me in your links where they advocate for “wild unprovable possible theory’s for each specific piece of key evidence” over “guilty beyond a reasonable doubt based on the totality of available evidence”

Thanks in advance

Applause!


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[Errrr]

Yes. But what if Johnny had sang ' I burned a body in Reno', and had a friend who he was living off, and most of the things you describe were actually done by the friend: the friend had the last known contact with the victim, moved the body alone, did the videoing and photos while Johnny posed with the incinerator, negotiated for and purchased the gun and ammo and incincerator, gave the victim's possessions to Johnny. Then to convict Johnny of first degree murder is not so clear, IMO.

LOL, good one!

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

I know I saw the location of the court listed in a post before but can someone remind me? I'm considering going tomorrow. Any tips from those who have been?

361 University Avenue. Courthouse opens at 8:30, but you would be wise to be there by 8. Then go to the second floor via the escalators, and line up. Court stars at 10.


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[huntergerrard]

As far as a premeditated and shared plan for killing Laura, how ‘bout that three week wait for the incinerator in the July heat? Does that really seem like a plan? The easy answer is that he didn’t expect the wait, but he certainly did expect some wait. It wouldn’t even arrive until the 5th, and anybody would expect some time to complete assembly and ensure it will be operational.

There were propane tanks to size, buy, install and fill. There were propane suppliers to find and generators to figure out, and most notably there was an entire trailer that needed building. They didn’t even have the raw steel for it for at least a week after Laura’s death. The first time the trailer became a rush was after Laura died. It became the “first priority after the Yukon” precisely on July 4.

There was no significant attempt to get ahead of any part of this project before that. Materials could have been ordered and timed to be available when the incinerator arrived. They were not. There is very little reason to expect that DM thought an operational incinerator was as imminent as it needed to be if you’re going to kill a woman in July.

IIRC LB was murdered the day the incinerator crossed the border. It wasn't just a "hey let's get rid of her because we have this incinerator sitting here doing nothing" it was "hey let's get rid of her because the incinerator will be here soon". The incinerator and LB went hand in hand, maybe that wasn't the entire purpose of the incinerator, but for the time being it would be used for LB.

Many vehicles and gadgets people buy nowadays can be used as soon as you buy it, I'm sure DM didn't have the foresight that there would be actual work involved to get it up and running, let's face it, DM always had other people doing the work for him (SS on cars and machines, MS & MM painting to get rental properties ready).

 

[huntergerrard]

I'm a bit puzzled as to how this trial has got so far ahead of schedule. DM's crosses have often been long drawn out affairs, so did a lot of evidence get deemed inadmissible along the way? There are certainly several loose ends that didn't seem to get followed through, such as the mattress, the Dodge Caravan and the CN camp work.

Plus there was at least one day off for a juror, I think a day off for MM to return, plus a few short days IIRC.

 

[huntergerrard]

I'm really looking forward to the next trial. I don't think there's any way around the fact that WM's death was a calculated, planned and deliberate murder. I can only hope there's enough evidence to prove so.

The trial for WM is not a direct indictment like LB's was, is that correct?

 

[huntergerrard]

I have an interesting question that I'm hoping to get some feedback on.

Does anyone think that all these players now understand today how truly insignificant they were to DM? SS, AM, MH, CN, his own parents, and then lastly... MS? Oh, Smichy. DM didn't love you. You weren't his brother. Psychopaths lack the ability to form any real attachment. After all, he was going to try and pin every single crime, on you.

Everyone serves a purpose to DM, until essentially, they no longer do. What happens then? Is it fair to speculate that all these players have come to this understanding today? I can appreciate that this may be unsavoury, even scary, to think about, and likely requires a level of awareness, rationality or critical thought that many of them don't possess or don't want to exercise.

Thoughts?

I can't wait to see what DM will say to defend himself in WM's trial when he doesn't have MS to pin it on.

 

[huntergerrard]

BBM. I have been struggling with this question for a while and am glad you brought it up. I've been researching, but can't seem to find any information to answer this question, specifically. What I have found, suggests that any good lawyer, whether for the prosecution or the defence, will want to meet with and prepare their witnesses. I suppose DM would have this right, or at least the right to request a meeting, but I can't find anything to suggest that it's enforceable. You can certainly subpoena someone to testify, but I don't know if you can subpoena them to a meeting.

I wish I knew more. Any lawyers in the crowd?

IIRC CN never met with the Crown prior to testifying at the TB trial. She refused.

 

[Grey-St]

The trial for WM is not a direct indictment like LB's was, is that correct?

Yes, that’s correct. A preliminary hearing was held in 2015. DM also retained a lawyer for that hearing, but it wasn’t specified if he’s representing DM at trial.

 

[Velma]

Good morning! What time do we start today, 9:30?

 

[MsSherlock]

We could be at the beginning of the most interesting part of this trial. Has DM taken the weekend to perfect his testimony on the stand? I'm guessing that he will and then depending on that performance, MS may be next one up there. Who would DM call as a witness? Maybe he'll pull in some good wholesome character witnesses like one of his tenants, MH or even one of his cousins? IMO, DM being a full fledged psychopath will not allow this opportunity to be a real criminal attorney slide by. He has such belief in his capabilities. Perhaps we'll even hear from his favourite supplier of tarps? I'll be shocked if neither of the defendants put forward a defence.

Justice Code has probably packed a seat belt just in case this turns into one wild and crazy ride. MOO

 

[Coldpizza]

Good morning! What time do we start today, 9:30?

The trial resumes Monday at 10 a.m. ET.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/laura-babcock-trial-1.4415122

 

[Woodland]

Thoroughly enjoying the debate on prior knowledge for MS - both sides put forth very good points imo.

So staying on the fence - will come down on whatever side the jury decides.

 

[paris_paris]

I have a pdf with letters from DM to CN used in the TB trial. Is there anything similar for this trial? Thought I'd try to fill in the redactions and see what's left.

 

[mimimic]

I believe some of the arguments put forth sound good, although recycled many times now. We have had much more time for debate than the Jury. Which makes me think they will likely go with the most logical decision to move on with their life. The only audience they have to show their debate skill is we the people, with the decision they come down with.

 

[MsSherlock]

IIRC LB was murdered the day the incinerator crossed the border. It wasn't just a "hey let's get rid of her because we have this incinerator sitting here doing nothing" it was "hey let's get rid of her because the incinerator will be here soon". The incinerator and LB went hand in hand, maybe that wasn't the entire purpose of the incinerator, but for the time being it would be used for LB.

Many vehicles and gadgets people buy nowadays can be used as soon as you buy it, I'm sure DM didn't have the foresight that there would be actual work involved to get it up and running, let's face it, DM always had other people doing the work for him (SS on cars and machines, MS & MM painting to get rental properties ready).

Agree 100% IMHO, DM thought the incinerator was plug and play.