Babcock Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #6

[tommyR]

First time poster. It seems beyond belief to me that 14 jurors were found with no knowledge of the TB case or the 2 perpetrators. What planet have they been living on? And what a delicate charade it has been to dance around the obvious fact that these 2 are already convicted killers.

There is no way this jury is ignorant of the Bosma case. Most - maybe even all of them - have heard the major points of that story/trial/verdict. Mindful of this, I suspect the selection process focused on the potential jurors degree of influence from the TB media coverage and his/her ability to be impartial and free or prejudice.

 

[deugirtni]

First time poster. It seems beyond belief to me that 14 jurors were found with no knowledge of the TB case or the 2 perpetrators. What planet have they been living on? And what a delicate charade it has been to dance around the obvious fact that these 2 are already convicted killers.

It isn't a requirement that all of the chosen jury members must have no knowledge of the TB case or the 2 accuseds (or the LB case, for that matter). In the TB trial (and I'm sure in this trial, and probably any criminal trial), all potential jurors were given the same series of questions, and based on their responses, (and/or anything else, including portrayed attitude, body language, vibes, whatever), they would be accepted, or refused (without a reason having to be declared), by each of the 3 parties (2 defence + Crown).

In the TB trial (and perhaps the questions may have been similar in this trial, or not!), in addition to questions re whether they had seen, read, or heard anything about the case or the accuseds, the questions included things such as: how well they remembered the things they'd seen/heard/read about the case or the accuseds, whether they'd formed opinions as to guilt or innocence already, whether they'd participated in discussions on SM wherein they'd expressed their opinions regarding guilt or innocence, whether they'd formed opinions through discussion with others, and whether they'd be able to set their opinions aside to fairly base their judgement on only the evidence presented at the trial and the judge's instructions. It was really interesting to listen to their answers and watch the process. jmo.

 

[deugirtni]

don't be shocked at this....I can't believe how many people I talk to who do have almost zero knowledge of the TB murder case or the 2 perpetrators....some people simply don't follow the news at all

Call me naive, but I was truly shocked one day when, just as this LB trial was getting underway, I had occasion to speak to a long-time officer (not sure what his rank was) from Peel Police Service - who knew nothing of the impending trial, *or* the LB case - hadn't even heard of it. I realize that 'Peel' may not have been specifically involved, but considering the media coverage and intertwining of these cases, the areas in which the cases spanned (Ancaster/Hamilton, Brantford, Ayr, Toronto, Mississauga, Waterloo, Etobicoke, Kleinburg, etc), and various police services working together, I would have figured that at least police would know about the cases, let alone the public.

 

[deugirtni]

Following trial threads is truly time-consuming and I haven't been able to keep up with every single post.... so forgive me if I have missed some stuff.. but.. was nothing more mentioned of the greeny, mobility-adapted van????

 

[deugirtni]

Newer member, banting, had a good point back on the last thread - that Austerweil witness had a possible motive for having *seen* LB after her disappearance, considering his son had been charged with theft under $5G (from LB), assault (against LB), and sexual assault against LB's friend, only 2.5 months before she disappeared (charged in March 2012). The man's charges got dropped in September 2012, after LB 'disappeared'. It does seem peculiar that DM wouldn't have tried to blame her disappearance on this fellow, (could that be one of the many legal arguments discussed without the jury's presence)?
(If you read the below article and try to follow along with the timelines given in regard to the Austerweil fellow, it's difficult to make sense of the timelines.

"Within weeks they were dating and Babcock quickly moved in with him. In many ways, Austerweil was the opposite of Lerner: he was unemployed, doing drugs and living in his father’s basement. In a more than hour-long interview, Austerweil told the Star that things started to fall apart after Babcock surprised him with his own puppy, a purebred Siberian husky, as a present for his birthday. Within weeks, the dog had a life-threatening stomach infection that racked up $4,000 in vet bills. Babcock paid and Austerweil promised to reimburse her, he said.

“Three weeks later she’s asking for the whole thing,” Austerweil said. “And then the craziness set in.”
In early 2012, Austerweil said he learned Babcock was going online to a site where anyone can perform live sex acts on a webcam while users pay to watch. The last time she signed on — the profile still shows a girl from the neck down wearing a bright pink bra — was at Austerweil’s house with her girlfriend. The three partied hard that night, Austerweil said, snorting coke, doing ecstasy, smoking weed and drinking. The women started stripping and kissing each other for online viewers, he said.

But the night deteriorated into a screaming match between Austerweil and Babcock. A month later, Babcock went to police. In March 2012, Austerweil was charged with assaulting her, theft under $5,000 (what he owed for the vet bill) and sexually assaulting her friend."

https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/...ck_leaves_lingering_questions_for_police.html

..."But both DM and Dungey seemed to want to discredit him. Maybe this conflicts with MS's story that we've yet to hear, but I'm surprised that Dungey didn't just pass like he has done all through the trial.
As for GA, maybe he wanted to believe he saw her because he was worried that his son might be responsible. Actually it would not have surprised me if DM had tried to pin it on DA."

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Trial-11-28-17-Day-23&p=13779773#post13779773

Why would DM call a witness only to seem to want to discredit him, and especially if the testimony would cast a doubt on whether the victim was even dead?

I wonder why the younger Austerweil wasn't called as a witness, and also LB's uncle (from news article above)?

 

[winter2017]

IF he had not been convicted he would have continued using drugs and gone on to commit more crimes. It looked liked he enjoyed violence/ He looked like he enjoyed doing the rap about Laura s murder, was very animated and cocky. He was in a very graphic violent video, it was about torturing someone. I think he enjoye th e murders. NOt all people doing a lot of drugs would be happy about murder.

I didn't know that about Millhaven, thanks for the knowledge. Not that I will ever need or use it. We must keep in mind, Mark S never had a day that wasn't clouded with marijuana in his thinking since he was 12 or14 years old. He might really be a decent guy.
What a terrible thing to wake up to after a month in prison.
Put me in mind of Steve McQueen in the final scene in The Sandpebble when he said "what the hell went wrong".

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

It isn't a requirement that all of the chosen jury members must have no knowledge of the TB case or the 2 accuseds (or the LB case, for that matter). In the TB trial (and I'm sure in this trial, and probably any criminal trial), all potential jurors were given the same series of questions, and based on their responses, (and/or anything else, including portrayed attitude, body language, vibes, whatever), they would be accepted, or refused (without a reason having to be declared), by each of the 3 parties (2 defence + Crown).

In the TB trial (and perhaps the questions may have been similar in this trial, or not!), in addition to questions re whether they had seen, read, or heard anything about the case or the accuseds, the questions included things such as: how well they remembered the things they'd seen/heard/read about the case or the accuseds, whether they'd formed opinions as to guilt or innocence already, whether they'd participated in discussions on SM wherein they'd expressed their opinions regarding guilt or innocence, whether they'd formed opinions through discussion with others, and whether they'd be able to set their opinions aside to fairly base their judgement on only the evidence presented at the trial and the judge's instructions. It was really interesting to listen to their answers and watch the process. jmo.

Thank you for this info. I sat in on a trial at the University Ave. courthouse a few years back. The perpetrator had been charged with 2nd degree murder. When the jury was selected not one of them was asked a single question at all. Each was asked to look at the accused, and there were two people selected from the jury pool (I think they were called Triers of Fact?) who observed the potential juror looking at the accused, and then a decision was made whether to accept that juror or not (defence and Crown had a say too).

But not a single person was asked anything at all ... not if they were aware of the case, if they could set aside any of their decisions based on what they had read, etc. Nothing at all like we see in the U.S. where jurors answer pages of questions before hand, and are subject to endless questioning.

So, why would some cases here in Canada not ask a juror a single thing, and other cases some questions are asked?

Would that be at the judge’s discretion? TIA




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[andreww]

Still wondering: If LE had discovered more in their investigation that leads them to believe there have been more murders than the ones already before the courts, would they have stated that at the time they discovered it or is it possible they would wait?

I doubt it. The quote about "Next level stuff" tells me that murder was a new thing for these guys. However, people seem to die around Millard. The mechanic that fell off the plane wing while alone with Millard and the ex girlfriend that killed herself in NY, coincidence? Who knows. But I don't think there are any random victims buried around southern Ontario courtesy of DM.

 

[andreww]

don't be shocked at this....I can't believe how many people I talk to who do have almost zero knowledge of the TB murder case or the 2 perpetrators....some people simply don't follow the news at all

Yep, sad take on society. Many folks care more about what happens to the Kardashians that what happens in their own backyards.

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

Following trial threads is truly time-consuming and I haven't been able to keep up with every single post.... so forgive me if I have missed some stuff.. but.. was nothing more mentioned of the greeny, mobility-adapted van????

Nope. Suspect they'll mention in the close that he had access to a vehicle that could transport a body... But that is it.

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

Newer member, banting, had a good point back on the last thread - that Austerweil witness had a possible motive for having *seen* LB after her disappearance, considering his son had been charged with theft under $5G (from LB), assault (against LB), and sexual assault against LB's friend, only 2.5 months before she disappeared (charged in March 2012). The man's charges got dropped in September 2012, after LB 'disappeared'. It does seem peculiar that DM wouldn't have tried to blame her disappearance on this fellow, (could that be one of the many legal arguments discussed without the jury's presence)?
(If you read the below article and try to follow along with the timelines given in regard to the Austerweil fellow, it's difficult to make sense of the timelines.

https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/...ck_leaves_lingering_questions_for_police.html


http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Trial-11-28-17-Day-23&p=13779773#post13779773

Why would DM call a witness only to seem to want to discredit him, and especially if the testimony would cast a doubt on whether the victim was even dead?

I wonder why the younger Austerweil wasn't called as a witness, and also LB's uncle (from news article above)?

I don't think he wanted to discredit him. He just made a big mistake and assumed he'd recognize LB from the video.

 

[Stratocaster]

Can someone remind me of what happened to DM ex girlfriend that committed suicide. I don't remember reading about this?

 

[andreww]

Can someone remind me of what happened to DM ex girlfriend that committed suicide. I don't remember reading about this?

As I recall she took a swan dive from her balcony.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

Can someone remind me of what happened to DM ex girlfriend that committed suicide. I don't remember reading about this?

This was detailed in Ann Brocklehurst’s book. It is the only place I remember reading anything about this. IIRC, the girlfriend of DM’s was staying in a hotel in New York City and committed suicide by jumping off the hotel balcony. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but apparently DM was bragging about having sex with another woman at his home while simultaneously talking on the phone with the girlfriend in New York right around the time she committed suicide.

My aging mind doesn’t remember details well, so someone please correct me if I am wrong. TIA.


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[winter2017]

I believe it he is a sadistic <modsnip>, anyone who would get involved with him would have to be crazy, except if they were as bad like CN.

This was detailed in Ann Brocklehurst&#8217;s book. It is the only place I remember reading anything about this. IIRC, the girlfriend of DM&#8217;s was staying in a hotel in New York City and committed suicide by jumping off the hotel balcony. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but apparently DM was bragging about having sex with another woman at his home while simultaneously talking on the phone with the girlfriend in New York right around the time she committed suicide.

My aging mind doesn&#8217;t remember details well, so someone please correct me if I am wrong. TIA.


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[Georgeo]

This was detailed in Ann Brocklehurst&#8217;s book. It is the only place I remember reading anything about this. IIRC, the girlfriend of DM&#8217;s was staying in a hotel in New York City and committed suicide by jumping off the hotel balcony. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but apparently DM was bragging about having sex with another woman at his home while simultaneously talking on the phone with the girlfriend in New York right around the time she committed suicide.

My aging mind doesn&#8217;t remember details well, so someone please correct me if I am wrong. TIA.


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yet another death somehow attributed to DM.

 

[banting]

I doubt it. The quote about "Next level stuff" tells me that murder was a new thing for these guys. However, people seem to die around Millard. The mechanic that fell off the plane wing while alone with Millard and the ex girlfriend that killed herself in NY, coincidence? Who knows. But I don't think there are any random victims buried around southern Ontario courtesy of DM.

I think it is possible there were more victims in the summer of 2012, but I doubt that there is enough evidence to build a case on.
If you strip down the timeline to references about the incinerator you come up with:
Jul 23 - SS does the pre-burn cycle and DM and MS do the night time burn of LB.
Aug 13 - SS texts Penner that the eliminator is working great NOW
Aug 28 - DM's another dead deer text
Aug 28 - SS notices bones, ash and rotting smell
Aug 28 - SS takes incinerator to hangar "you wanted it tonight"
Sep 5 - DM to MS text about returning incinerator to barn

Also of relevance might be MS text of Aug 20 re seeing Isho "tomorrow".

I don't see how the rotting smell could relate to LB. The picture of the burning bones indicates that there would be nothing left to rot. Also there are no texts that night to suggest that there was an interruption or something had gone wrong.

 

[LoyalSleuth]

I doubt it. The quote about "Next level stuff" tells me that murder was a new thing for these guys. However, people seem to die around Millard. The mechanic that fell off the plane wing while alone with Millard and the ex girlfriend that killed herself in NY, coincidence? Who knows. But I don't think there are any random victims buried around southern Ontario courtesy of DM.

I never knew about either of those terrible deaths. Wow!

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[banting]

Nope. Suspect they'll mention in the close that he had access to a vehicle that could transport a body... But that is it.

DM made a strange reference to it in his cross of SS I think, but I can't find it right now. Something along the lines of "could I have switched from the Olds to the green van at the hangar"? It seemed like he was concerned about it and was trying to put in his argument before the point was raised but it never was.

 

[RandomName479]

I didn't know that about Millhaven, thanks for the knowledge. Not that I will ever need or use it. We must keep in mind, Mark S never had a day that wasn't clouded with marijuana in his thinking since he was 12 or14 years old. He might really be a decent guy.
What a terrible thing to wake up to after a month in prison.
Put me in mind of Steve McQueen in the final scene in The Sandpebble when he said "what the hell went wrong".

From Wikepedia... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millhaven_Institution

Millhaven consists of three main living units, a segregation unit and a hospital wing. There are approximately 120 men per unit.

Sometimes posters are providing misinformation without linking sources......