BBC to drop BC, AD; it's BCE, CE now

[Cypros]

Their global audience either speaks English, in which case their most-used terms for dates are AD and BC, or speaks another language, in which case they use different letters altogether.

Here's what I can envision happening:

"Attila the Hun began his reign some time after 435."

"Would that be in CE or in BCE?"

"I beg your pardon. BNCE or NBCE?"

"In BBC-ese, BC must be BCE and AD must be CE."

"Did you say, 'NBBCE's BC must BBCE and a D must BCE?'"

"Gee! . . . 'Kay, BC and AD are BCE and CE, see?"

"GKBC and ADRBCE and CEC??? I'm really lost here."

"I'm talking about Before the Common Era or Common Era. Attila. 435, what?"

"That would be CE."

"So, BCE?"

"AD, dammit!"

This is a terminology that has been used globally for a couple of decades already. My students manage to get it with about a 3 minute explanation. It really isn't that hard.

And in that 3 minute explanation, they are also learning other well-used dating terminology abbreviations such as mill., m.y.a, b.y.a, and B.P.

 

[wfgodot]

Isn't that analogy rather over-the-top? I agree with you that much urban renewal, while well-intended, did great damage.

But using inclusive language is hardly the same thing.

No individual is prevented from using the phrase "in the year of Our Lord" either in Latin or English, but why should everyone use it when everyone doesn't believe it?

Not only a bit over the top, but a bit purple too, lol.

But, like urban renewal, the BC/AD - BCE/CE thing resounds of the wrecking ball.

I'm a Christian more in the breech than in the observance, I'd say, and truly wince at what passes for the stuff these days, but things like this smack of cultural appeasement and provide, for the Christian Right, "evidence" that they're "under attack" and thus suffering for their beliefs. Pah, nonsense. For me, it's more a cultural than a religious issue. Why arm the enemy. Leave well enough alone.

 

[Nova]

Not only a bit over the top, but a bit purple too, lol.

But, like urban renewal, the BC/AD - BCE/CE thing resounds of the wrecking ball.

I'm a Christian more in the breech than in the observance, I'd say, and truly wince at what passes for the stuff these days, but things like this smack of cultural appeasement and provide, for the Christian Right, "evidence" that they're "under attack" and thus suffering for their beliefs. Pah, nonsense. For me, it's more a cultural than a religious issue. Why arm the enemy. Leave well enough alone.

Point taken and you may have noticed I agree with you at least 90% of the time on most issues.

But the religious right is so quick to take offense it doesn't really matter what the BBC does or doesn't do. In this case, the BBC isn't initiating the change, it's merely acknowledging a change that happened 20 years ago. Yes, the change began in academia and was politically motivated, but who else used "BC" and "AD" with any regularity? And why are politics always assumed to be something bad?

 

[wfgodot]

Point taken and you may have noticed I agree with you at least 90% of the time on most issues.

But the religious right is so quick to take offense it doesn't really matter what the BBC does or doesn't do. In this case, the BBC isn't initiating the change, it's merely acknowledging a change that happened 20 years ago. Yes, the change began in academia and was politically motivated, but who else used "BC" and "AD" with any regularity? And why are politics always assumed to be something bad?

Now you're too conservative, I'd say we agree at least 97.5% of the time.

Your points above are all good ones.

Not sure what it is that set me off about this issue - surely not just the BBC announcement. Perhaps I do have an inherent conservative streak when it comes to religion, which, to me, perhaps more than anything, is a synonym for tradition. To repeat the metaphor of physical decay - I blame Larkin, and poems like 'Going, Going':

---
And that will be England gone,
The shadows, the meadows, the lanes,
The guildhalls, the carved choirs.
There'll be books; it will linger on
In galleries; but all that remains
For us will be concrete and tyres.
---

 

[Cypros]

I like tradition, too. But sometimes "tradition" is better translated as "Dark Ages".

 

[badhorsie]

Why is it only English-speaking peoples who can't embrace change without losing our identities? Much of the world uses the metric system without a problem.

I can only speak for myself but I wasn't aware that the inability to cope with change was only a problem among English speakers.
A lot of Europeans did not want to embrace the Euro and now look what has happened

 

[wfgodot]

I like tradition, too. But sometimes "tradition" is better translated as "Dark Ages".

Better the Dark Ages, with the Renaissance ahead, than to set quietly and curse the coming darkness.

 

[Cypros]

Better the Dark Ages, with the Renaissance ahead, than to set quietly and curse the coming darkness.

Unless adopting BCE/CE a reflection of a New Renaissance.

 

[wfgodot]

Unless adopting BCE/CE a reflection of a New Renaissance.

Yes, thought of that. Good point. Though there's no guarantee of another. Thus - I'm on a poetry kick, sorry - one must rage against the dying of the light.

 

[badhorsie]

with apologies to DT
Do not go gentle into that new rennaisance light

 

[wfgodot]

I can lapse into quite a dark view of the future, Orwellian:

If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face—forever.

(from, btw, Nineteen Eighty-Four, Inner Party member O'Brien)

 

[STEADFAST]

Point taken and you may have noticed I agree with you at least 90% of the time on most issues.

But the religious right is so quick to take offense it doesn't really matter what the BBC does or doesn't do. In this case, the BBC isn't initiating the change, it's merely acknowledging a change that happened 20 years ago. Yes, the change began in academia and was politically motivated, but who else used "BC" and "AD" with any regularity? And why are politics always assumed to be something bad?

Whether 2011 is attached to A.D. or CE does not change what the basis of the numbering system is. Pretending as if the numbering system for years is not based on some rough estimate by the Catholic Church of when one of their gods was born (or when he died, maybe?) is just covering up the truth. Other religions/cultures have their own numbering systems, which would not count this year as 2011. However, the counting-backwards-or-forwards-from-a-Christian-god's-lifetime system is used internationally and everybody knows what the number before BCE and CE really means.

ETA Forgot to mention that "Common Era" means the era in which Jewish and Christian histories merged, so the designation is Western-centric anyway. I mean, Asians and Africans are probably going, "Common WHAT Era?"

 

[Cypros]

Yes, thought of that. Good point. Though there's no guarantee of another. Thus - I'm on a poetry kick, sorry - one must rage against the dying of the light.

We all have things that we just. must. resist.

 

[Cypros]

Whether 2011 is attached to A.D. or CE does not change what the basis of the numbering system is. Pretending as if the numbering system for years is not based on some rough estimate by the Catholic Church of when one of their gods was born (or when he died, maybe?) is just covering up the truth. Other religions/cultures have their own numbering systems, which would not count this year as 2011. However, the counting-backwards-or-forwards-from-a-Christian-god's-lifetime system is used internationally and everybody knows what the number before BCE and CE really means.

ETA Forgot to mention that "Common Era" means the era in which Jewish and Christian histories merged, so the designation is Western-centric anyway. I mean, Asians and Africans are probably going, "Common WHAT Era?"

You are absolutely right, Steadfast. It is a compromise. I suppose after Americans refused to adopt the metric system despite its proven superiority, the chance that we would adopt and entirely new calendrical system was clearly out of the question. Perhaps some day there can be a truly universal calendar.

 

[STEADFAST]

You are absolutely right, Steadfast. It is a compromise. I suppose after Americans refused to adopt the metric system despite its proven superiority, the chance that we would adopt and entirely new calendrical system was clearly out of the question. Perhaps some day there can be a truly universal calendar.

I'd actually prefer that. At least it would make sense as a global gesture of human unity. Also, it would make it much harder for people to subtract backwards to my date of birth. I'm going to follow wfgodot's example and turn to poetry to examine my own inner motivations for resisting this change.

The Purist

I give you now Professor Twist,
A conscientious scientist,
Trustees exclaimed, "He never bungles!"
And sent him off to distant jungles.
Camped on a tropic riverside,
One day he missed his loving bride.
She had, the guide informed him later,
Been eaten by an alligator.
Professor Twist could not but smile.
"You mean," he said, "a crocodile."

-- Ogden Nash

 

[Cypros]

OK. I feel I must participate in the poetry fest. Since we are discussing BCE/CE, I'll contribute a poem excerpt about one of my favorite ancient cities that thrived during that transitional period spanning the two eras.

They seem no work of Man's creative hand,
Where Labour wrought as wayward Fancy planned;
But from the rock as if by magic grown,
Eternal—silent—beautiful—alone!
Not virgin-white—like that old Doric shrine
Where once Athena held her rites divine;
Not saintly grey—like many a minster fane
That crowns the hill, or sanctifies the plain:
But rosy-red,—as if the blush of dawn,
Which first beheld them were not yet withdrawn:
The hues of youth upon a brow of woe,
Which Man call'd old two thousand years ago!
Match me such marvel, save in Eastern clime,—
A rose-red city—'half as old as time!' (J. W. Burgon)

 

[wfgodot]

This one seems to work against me, but Shelley's 'Ozymandias' is irresistable:

(...)

And on the pedestal these words appear:
`My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!'
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away".

 

[wfgodot]

Now, on that new calendar idea, the French had a go at that, I believe, around the time Robespierre was lopping off heads.

 

[Cypros]

I always loved 'Ozymandias'

 

[STEADFAST]

OK. I feel I must participate in the poetry fest. Since we are discussing BCE/CE, I'll contribute a poem excerpt about one of my favorite ancient cities that thrived during that transitional period spanning the two eras.

They seem no work of Man's creative hand,
Where Labour wrought as wayward Fancy planned;
But from the rock as if by magic grown,
Eternal—silent—beautiful—alone!
Not virgin-white—like that old Doric shrine
Where once Athena held her rites divine;
Not saintly grey—like many a minster fane
That crowns the hill, or sanctifies the plain:
But rosy-red,—as if the blush of dawn,
Which first beheld them were not yet withdrawn:
The hues of youth upon a brow of woe,
Which Man call'd old two thousand years ago!
Match me such marvel, save in Eastern clime,—
A rose-red city—'half as old as time!' (J. W. Burgon)

Love your choice of author, considering the subject of the thread. :loser: