BDI,premeditated or not?

[Darlene733510]

Mark of Oz - I noticed that this is your first post. Welcome to Websleuths. There are so many people here, on the forum who are truly dedicated to justice for JBR. Many of them are very knowledgeable about many aspects.
You may also find a lot of info by reading at the "A Candy Rose" site.

 

[dodie20]

I would think that if she was hit with a hammer there would have been a break in the skin on the scalp. Perhaps her head was slammed against something.
In the testimony, didn't someone say JAR was into rope climbing? BR would surely know something about knots, as he was in scouts, and sailed with his Dad. If he took karate, or watched wrestling he may have learned the result of what an arm around the neck, and pressure there that could enable someone to pass out. Something happened in that basement hallway, which caused JB to urinate, and because there was a frontal urine stain on the long johns, she had to be on her stomach, and could easily be attacked from behind.
I think the garrote could have been made by BR, but I don't know when it was made, so I'm not sure it was a result of premeditation. Maybe it was made for the "puppy game".

re your 1st sentence...I do too! actually, I'm surprised that anything that could do the damage that was done to JB's skull, didn't break the skin. kwim? whether golf club, baseball bat, flashlight, hammer, tub, anything! From what I've read, the flashlight was seriously considered because of it's rubber coating-supposedly it would keep the skin from breaking? The same thing with a golf club cover, I guess. And some hammers are also coated in rubber.

 

[madeleine]

Many of us, maybe it is even safe to say most of us, have changed our theories over the years. I know I have. Problem is, the evidence doesn't all neatly fit one suspect. One thing I am sure of, one, two or three R's is/are responsible for the abuse, murder, staging and cover up of JBR's death.

yep.
and as far as I am concerned it got worse after the GJ release cause it confirmed to me the jurors had the same problem (who did what) and they saw all the evidence...someone has to spill the beans,otherwise I am afraid it will never be solved...not with the evidence they already got....

 

[Mysteeri]

It isn't that Wecht had facts wrong as much as his opinion differed from every other expert who reviewed the autopsy, including the one who actually performed it. He had a different opinion of how much blood and swelling there was.
What we DO know as fact is that she was alive when the ligature was tightened around her neck and she was alive when she was bashed on the head. There WAS minimal swelling and organization of the damage to the skull and there was bruising on the brain. NONE of these things occur in a dead person. There was also petechial hemorrhaging in her eyelids and in her lungs. Both are commonly found when someone is strangled. Because there was also a scream heard around midnight, she could not have had the ligature tightened and also screamed. Just examining the evidence of sexual penetration causing some bleeding it is easy to see that the abuse caused her to scream, the scream caused her attacker to bash her to shut her up, and the cord may or may not have been part of the abuse.

Commenting on the parts bolded by me. I don`t recall whether or not Wecht claimed that she was dead when the head bash occured, or just that blood flow to the brain was restricted because of the ligature.

Very plausible that her scream resulted in the head bash, probably with the flashlight.

 

[otg]

Hi there, I'm new here btw.

I remember a fight broke out in high school and one kid grabbed a hammer (during woodwork class) and cracked another boy over the head with it. The blow was forceful enough to knock the boy out but it wasn't fatal (thankfully) and although he spent the next two days in hospital having scans and such, there was not one drop of blood anywhere to be found. The blow never broke his skin open.

Clearly the blow that JBR received was more powerful and so regardless of what was used, I think it was more the position of where it made contact that determined whether or not a laceration would occur. If indeed BR inflicted the head bash upon JBR, he must have been a lot stronger than he looked at the time.

Welcome to WS, Mark of Oz.

Consider this about whatever was used to cause the skull fractures... Anything used that would have sharp edges would most likely have caused lacerations. For there not to be any apparent sign of an injury on JonBenet's scalp, the object that hit her head (or, that her head hit) would have to have no sharp edges or corners, and it would have to have a shape that would cause an oval (or elliptical) depressed fracture. It would also have to be shaped in such a way that it would cause the linear fracture to run from opposite edges of the "hole".

In the story you related, I'm assuming there was no skull fracture in addition to no laceration, so it didn't involve a blow with enough force to cause the kind of injuries JonBenet had. But keep in mind also that at 6-years-old, JonBenet's skull was not completely developed. It would not have much of a developed diploic layer, and it wouldn't have been as thick or as hard as an adult's, and therefore not require the amount of force to cause the fractures.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

I place no value on the neighbor's report of hearing a scream, and I think that people who DO place a lot of value in this account do themselves a great disservice. It simply isn't credible, imo.

1. It wasn't initially reported to LE by the neighbor, but a friend of this neighbor.

2. The account changed dramatically with each retelling.

3. The neighbor even went so far as to say that maybe it wasn't an audible scream, but JB's psychic energy she heard (really?).

If you hang your hat on testimony as flimsy as that, you're going to end up losing your hat, folks.

 

[Chelly]

I place no value on the neighbor's report of hearing a scream, and I think that people who DO place a lot of value in this account do themselves a great disservice. It simply isn't credible, imo.

1. It wasn't initially reported to LE by the neighbor, but a friend of this neighbor.

2. The account changed dramatically with each retelling.

3. The neighbor even went so far as to say that maybe it wasn't an audible scream, but JB's psychic energy she heard (really?).

If you hang your hat on testimony as flimsy as that, you're going to end up losing your hat, folks.

That neighbor is not at all credible in my opinion. She lost all credibility when she changed her statement from "hearing a scream" to experiencing a negative energy force from the R's home. I dismiss her statement along with SBTC Victory and the touch DNA.

 

[DeeDee249]

That neighbor is not at all credible in my opinion. She lost all credibility when she changed her statement from "hearing a scream" to experiencing a negative energy force from the R's home. I dismiss her statement along with SBTC Victory and the touch DNA.

I understand why you or other might feel this way. But I feel she was intimidated, possibly by R attorneys, after she made her initial comment. Then she changed her story by saying she might have heard "negative energy" coming from JB. She moved away after the crime, but she did finally say that she did, indeed, hear a scream.
I believe she did hear the scream. It would have coincided with the time of death. And there is also the matter of the "metal scraping concrete" sounds her husband claimed to hear when she woke him up. There were items in the winecellar that could have made those sounds- the paint cans that might have been moved to make room for the body...and the little-talked-about large piece of sheet metal that was covering the floor safe. This was in the exact spot where the body was found, and was moved as well.

 

[otg]

I understand why you or other might feel this way. But I feel she was intimidated, possibly by R attorneys, after she made her initial comment. Then she changed her story by saying she might have heard "negative energy" coming from JB. She moved away after the crime, but she did finally say that she did, indeed, hear a scream.
I believe she did hear the scream. It would have coincided with the time of death. And there is also the matter of the "metal scraping concrete" sounds her husband claimed to hear when she woke him up. There were items in the winecellar that could have made those sounds- the paint cans that might have been moved to make room for the body...and the little-talked-about large piece of sheet metal that was covering the floor safe. This was in the exact spot where the body was found, and was moved as well.

I too believe she heard it, but was later intimidated -- either by Ramsey lawyers or investigators, or simply by all the national media attention. How coincidental is it that she just happened to hear something at the exact time as JonBenet is estimated to have died? (A better TOD would be available if the coroner had done his job even though he was pissed at being called out during his holiday and then held up while BPD got a search warrant for him to enter the hellhole.)

 

[DeeDee249]

I too believe she heard it, but was later intimidated -- either by Ramsey lawyers or investigators, or simply by all the national media attention. How coincidental is it that she just happened to hear something at the exact time as JonBenet is estimated to have died? (A better TOD would be available if the coroner had done his job even though he was pissed at being called out during his holiday and then held up while BPD got a search warrant for him to enter the hellhole.)

You're right, the coroner did NOT do his job that first night. I am wondering whether he was told not to look to closely or, more ominously, not to list his suspected time of death on his written report. Instead he lists the time she was found (just after 1 pm). Odd, no? I am thinking that he was told not to write the TOD because it coincided with too many things the RST wished to ignore. Namely, the scream allegedly heard by a neighbor (around midnight), the pineapple snack (about 2 hours BEFORE death, i.e. approx. 10 pm. The time they left the White's etc. and the stage of rigor mortis she was in when found. ALL these factors point to a death occurring around midnight-1 am. Being annoyed at having been called on to do a job he was being paid to to is no excuse to not DO that job or to do a sloppy job. Sloppiness and being lax about procedures was his method anyway. For a coroner to use the same, unsterile nail clippers on more than one decedent is unconscionable. For him to use dirty clippers on a murdered child is criminal.

 

[Chelly]

Sometimes I wonder if it was the goal of nearly everyone involved in this case to do shoddy work so the R's would not be accused.

 

[Frigga]

Sometimes I wonder if it was the goal of nearly everyone involved in this case to do shoddy work so the R's would not be accused.

Certainly not Steve Thomas or James Kolar. I am sure there were others who tried their best against all odds or the forces of Ramsey. I am certain this case haunts many of them to this day.

 

[Frigga]

The fact that neither L. Wood nor John Ramsey has come out swinging speaks volumes to me, but especially Burke himself. If these rumors and innuendos were swirling around about me (Kolars book alone) would have me holding a press conference and agreeing to speak with LE lightening quick. Even the silence of people like Fleet White. I would think if he suspected JR or PR HE might come out in defense of Burke. Interesting, to say the least and very telling- IMOO.

 

[Chelly]

I understand why you or other might feel this way. But I feel she was intimidated, possibly by R attorneys, after she made her initial comment. Then she changed her story by saying she might have heard "negative energy" coming from JB. She moved away after the crime, but she did finally say that she did, indeed, hear a scream.
I believe she did hear the scream. It would have coincided with the time of death. And there is also the matter of the "metal scraping concrete" sounds her husband claimed to hear when she woke him up. There were items in the winecellar that could have made those sounds- the paint cans that might have been moved to make room for the body...and the little-talked-about large piece of sheet metal that was covering the floor safe. This was in the exact spot where the body was found, and was moved as well.

You raise a good point, DeeDee249. I can imagine the R's attorneys convincing the neighbor she was mistaken about hearing a scream.

 

[Chelly]

Certainly not Steve Thomas or James Kolar. I am sure there were others who tried their best against all odds or the forces of Ramsey. I am certain this case haunts many of them to this day.

Agreed, for sure. That's why I said "nearly everyone"

 

[eileenhawkeye]

The fact that neither L. Wood nor John Ramsey has come out swinging speaks volumes to me, but especially Burke himself. If these rumors and innuendos were swirling around about me (Kolars book alone) would have me holding a press conference and agreeing to speak with LE lightening quick. Even the silence of people like Fleet White. I would think if he suspected JR or PR HE might come out in defense of Burke. Interesting, to say the least and very telling- IMOO.

Burke speaking out about Kolar's book could turn into a horrible PR decision. There will always be rumors about him, that of course get hotter at times, but I think holding a press conference about Kolar's book or the GJ indictment (which didn't even mention his name) would be the worst thing he could do.

The Ramseys and their team know that if they take any action against Kolar's book, a lawsuit or mention it an interview/media, he will get a sales boost. Can you imagine new CNN article about how John is angry about Kolar's book saying BDI, and then some interested people would look his book on Amazon, see all the good reviews, and possibly buy it? I also think another reason why John is not screaming to the media about Kolar's book is because he knows people will take Kolar's side. Because if he could go to the media, and destroy Kolar, why wouldn't he? Have the whole country say "how dare this guy accuse an 9-year-old boy!" instead people would say "hmmm....maybe that theory is right". So basically, John is not going to make a big deal over Kolar's book because he know nothing good will come from it.

 

[expat79]

The fact that neither L. Wood nor John Ramsey has come out swinging speaks volumes to me, but especially Burke himself. If these rumors and innuendos were swirling around about me (Kolars book alone) would have me holding a press conference and agreeing to speak with LE lightening quick. Even the silence of people like Fleet White. I would think if he suspected JR or PR HE might come out in defense of Burke. Interesting, to say the least and very telling- IMOO.

On the other hand, if Fleet knows BR did it, he won't go public with that information either. Publicly pointing the finger at a 9-year old (now an adult who is, from all indications, an upstanding citizen)? Nothing good will come from that either. Even if it was true.

 

[txsvicki]

I'll bet that all the parents, especially if they've read Kolar's book, have questioned their adult kids about everything. If a child had SBP as a compulsion other kids could have been affected.

 

[borndem]

I don't know how to vote in this poll.
What makes sense to me is to attribute all of the violence to BR. In the event that BDI, I suspect that BR is responsible for the head bash and then the strangulation. (I never bought the - she was bashed and then a parent "finished her off" scenario.
So - since there were two actions, then I guess that pretty well meets the threshold for premeditation.
However we have know way to no if BR harbored any fantasies of killing JBR.
All simply my opinion based on the available evidence.

Good post, wengr. I'm not sure how to vote, either.

I do think BR delivered the blow to the head -- in anger, possibly pent-up anger. But did this 9-year-old mean to actually kill her? That's hard for me to swallow... But he did play baseball and he had to know how dangerous a hard-hit baseball could be, and he had to know how dangerous a baseball bat could be, so seems to me he would have to know that a heavy flashlight (if that was what was used) would be very dangerous, too. He could have simply punched her in the face or hit her in the stomach...

Here, wengr is where the rubber hits the road: JB would have to be unconscious from the head blow. If BR was the one who followed that blow with the strangulation, then IMHO, that act was the premeditated act. He meant to kill his sister.

It's my opinion, however, that BR did strike the head bash, but JR & PR are the ones who took control after that. Whoever strangled JB is the one who acted with premeditation and meant to kill JonBenet.

JMHO

 

[borndem]

IMO what was premeditated was the sexual assault. Christmas night seemed just right, except for some reason, JonBenet did not.


Someone lost the plot and violently assaulted JonBenet, the rest is just staging, possibly multiple attempts.

.

bbm

Hmmm, UKGuy. Your remark made me <shiver>. It made me think...
Could something have happened at the party? Something bad enuff for JB to say, "I don't feel pretty."