Blue Fibers

[BBB167893]

Okay.

Remember, Stanton later claimed she couldn't be sure she heard a scream at all.

 

[LinasK]

my point on the oversized panties was that patsy most likely would not have made the mistake of putting the wrong size panties on her daughter - those panties were HUGE compared to little JBR. its more likely a male in the home did it - that is all

Patsy made no mistake in putting the size 12 panties on her. They were important more because they were the 'Wednesday' panties. No male is going to be bothered with putting Wednesday panties on his victim.:doh: That was far more important to Patsy than wondering whether the size discrepancy would be noticed, she probably figured it wouldn't be noticed right away or wasn't thinking clearly in the moment!

 

[rashomon]

Patsy made no mistake in putting the size 12 panties on her. They were important more because they were the 'Wednesday' panties. No male is going to be bothered with putting Wednesday panties on his victim.:doh: That was far more important to Patsy than wondering whether the size discrepancy would be noticed, she probably figured it wouldn't be noticed right away or wasn't thinking clearly in the moment!

But how did fibers from John's shirt end up in the crotch area of these panties?
A possible scenario: Patsy told him to take the Wednesday panties out of the package and put them on JB.

John's shirt fibers in the size 12 panties point to John Ramsey's involvement in the cover-up.
And no doubt John later knew that he was going to find JB when he opened the wine cellar door in the presence of Fleet White. I believe John himself had carried her body down there.

 

[UKGuy]

But how did fibers from John's shirt end up in the crotch area of these panties?
A possible scenario: Patsy told him to take the Wednesday panties out of the package and put them on JB.

John's shirt fibers in the size 12 panties point to John Ramsey's involvement in the cover-up.
And no doubt John later knew that he was going to find JB when he opened the wine cellar door in the presence of Fleet White. I believe John himself had carried her body down there.

A possible scenario: Patsy told him to take the Wednesday panties out of the package and put them on JB.

Or John is naked in his bedroom, and picks up his shirt to wipe JonBenet down?



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[UKGuy]

Patsy made no mistake in putting the size 12 panties on her. They were important more because they were the 'Wednesday' panties. No male is going to be bothered with putting Wednesday panties on his victim.:doh: That was far more important to Patsy than wondering whether the size discrepancy would be noticed, she probably figured it wouldn't be noticed right away or wasn't thinking clearly in the moment!

The size-12 Wednesday underwear was important to someone who wanted the appearance of JonBenet being abducted from her bed as she was placed in it, now I am assuming that the size-6 underwear that is missing is a Wednesday pair, and since the Ramsey's never knew if anyone at the White's had seen JonBenet's underwear, they had to redress JonBenet in a Wednesday pair. At this point her sexual assault was being masked.

This is one of the features of a staged crime-scene, where it is overdone, or constructed to comply with the perpetrators concept of how a murder should look, yet us looking in on this can see, it may not have mattered if she had been wearing no underwear, then we would all theorize they had been taken as a trophy by some crazed pedophile?

There was a drawer full of size-6 underwear in the bathroom, yet the size-12's were selected, but they had Wednesday stamped on them, same day that is stamped on her gravestone!


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[JMO8778]

Melody Stanton's husband said he heard a sound after the scream which he hadn't heard, like metal hitting or scraping on concrete. I've always wondered if she was being beaten with a shovel or the metal baseball bat.
The spider web and dust on the windowwell grate proves it wasn't that.

In the movie PMPT,Schiller says the set was done very much like the real house was,details included, and I noticed some paint cans in the WC.I remember someone on WS mentioned this bf,but I agree,I think the metal on concrete sound was likely from those being moved.

 

[JMO8778]

I think her going to the school nurse on Mondays and her attempting a 911 call from the party on the 23rd proves she knew something that wasn't right was going on. Probably she was in pain, as the coroners said a previous injury, just about that old, was healing at the time of the fatal assault.

Sure sounds that way, doesn't it.I recall in ST book her comment about not feeling pretty.And wasn't she in bed not feeling well Xmas day,bf going to the party?I think I recall reading that somewhere.

 

[JMO8778]

The size-12 Wednesday underwear was important to someone who wanted the appearance of JonBenet being abducted from her bed as she was placed in it, now I am assuming that the size-6 underwear that is missing is a Wednesday pair, and since the Ramsey's never knew if anyone at the White's had seen JonBenet's underwear, they had to redress JonBenet in a Wednesday pair. At this point her sexual assault was being masked.



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It sure sounds that way,IMO.I keep wondering if ST has since changed his scenerio of it being toilet rage in light of the fiber evidence they have now.

 

[JMO8778]

You think the intruder took the time to rummage in JB's drawers in order to find panties with 'Wednesday' on them? And: why would a sexual predator go to the trouble to put underwear back on JB at all? This doesn't make sense.

And let us not forget 'Occam's razor': fibers from John Ramsey's black shirt were found in the crotch area of the size 12 panties.
Whether he was the perp or the helper in the cover-up - the fiber evdence links JonBenet's father to this garment.

I keep coming back to the fact that JR took a shower that morning and PR didn't.Was it b/c he felt he had evidence on him that needed to be washed away?
I think he took a shower b/f the 911 call b/c they planned it that way.

 

[LinasK]

But how did fibers from John's shirt end up in the crotch area of these panties?
A possible scenario: Patsy told him to take the Wednesday panties out of the package and put them on JB.

John's shirt fibers in the size 12 panties point to John Ramsey's involvement in the cover-up.
And no doubt John later knew that he was going to find JB when he opened the wine cellar door in the presence of Fleet White. I believe John himself had carried her body down there.

Okay, the shirt fibers obviously either landed there in one of two ways: 1)John kept his shirt on during the assault, or 2) he wiped her down using the shirt. Either occured before JB was re-dressed in the size 12 panties. The urine-staining could be post-mortem emptying of the bladder, and even the blood stain in the panties could have dripped from the paintbrush wound after redressing.
The size 12 panties may have been placed on by John at Patsy's direction, it's possible. I don't know exactly how much role each of them played but I believe both Ramsey parents knew all about this murder and both were involved in the cover-up.

 

[narlacat]

I keep coming back to the fact that JR took a shower that morning and PR didn't.Was it b/c he felt he had evidence on him that needed to be washed away?
I think he took a shower b/f the 911 call b/c they planned it that way.

Yep me too.

 

[UKGuy]

Okay, the shirt fibers obviously either landed there in one of two ways: 1)John kept his shirt on during the assault, or 2) he wiped her down using the shirt. Either occured before JB was re-dressed in the size 12 panties. The urine-staining could be post-mortem emptying of the bladder, and even the blood stain in the panties could have dripped from the paintbrush wound after redressing.
The size 12 panties may have been placed on by John at Patsy's direction, it's possible. I don't know exactly how much role each of them played but I believe both Ramsey parents knew all about this murder and both were involved in the cover-up.

LinasK,

Either occured before JB was re-dressed in the size 12 panties.

All depends on what you think occurred first.

Lets assume her long-underwear and size-12's were placed upon her within the same timeframe, why, because they are both soaked through with urine, source:Autopsy.

Also JonBenet's size-12 underwear has blood stains, and the corresponding area of her skin in the pubic area, shows no matching stains! This and fibers found in her genitalia suggests she was wiped down after being redressed in the size-12 underwear.

JonBenet's bladder is empty, source:Autopsy.

Now whichever way you wish to sequence events, e.g. JonBenet wets the bed, she evacuates her bladder upon death, later whilst being moved, or her final disposition is due to a post-mortem release. This state of affairs would be apparent to the Ramsey's.

Lets itemize each of these possibilities.

1.) JonBenet wets the bed
Possible, but is inconsistent with the size-12's and further urine release?

2.) JonBenet evacuates her bladder upon death:
Possible, but would suggest she was killed while wearing the size-12's and long-underwear, or that the staining of the latter was post-mortem.

3.) JonBenet evacuates her bladder whilst being moved:
Possible and consistent with the evidence.

4.) JonBenet evacuates her bladder due to a post-mortem release.
Possible, is consistent with the evidence, and is similar to 3.), excepting the cause is not her corpse being moved.

Now if you assume a Toilet Rage theory as per Steve Thomas, and that the wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene, the purpose of which is to hide the true nature of the circumstances surrounding JonBenet's death, e.g bed-wetting.

Here you have the perpetrator(s) going to all this trouble attempting to hide the origin of JonBenet's death e.g. Toilet Rage with extensive and complex staging that includes a sexual assault. Only to leave her lying in urine-stained underwear?

Yet we know from the above analysis that one of the Ramsey's must have noticed those urine-stained underwear, at some point in the staging process, in particular, when she was wiped down.

The blankets in which she was wrapped are not urine-stained, nor was the wine-cellar floor, so I doubt that the urine release occurred after she had been wrapped in the blankets.

So evidently JonBenet's killer(s) did not consider that her underwear was urine-stained to be important?

This is not consistent with the assumption that the wine-cellar staging was contrived to mask an inadvertent death due to Toilet Rage

I suggest something else was being hidden, something they did attempt mask by assaulting JonBenet with the paintbrush handle. Coroner Meyer was confident Jonbenet was the victim of an acute assault during the timeframe of her death. He also remarked to Det. Arndt that it appeared JonBenet had been penetrated digitally! This was partially based upon the enlargement of JonBenet's hymen, opined as twice the normal size for a girl of her age.

To confirm his suspicions he sought the opinion of award winning child abuse expert Professor Dr. Andrew Sirotnak, who physically examined JonBenet in the morgue.

So to that extent you can argue that the staging was partly successful, but not enough to avoid questions regarding prior chronic abuse.



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[Eagle1]

One thing I don't think we've ever mentioned in any of the forums, these fibers don't necessarily have to come from something a family member owns.

If an IDI, who'd just 2 days earlier viciously molested JonBenet enough to make her cry and try to call 911 at the party, probably in pain, he could have grabbed up something to wipe her with that he found in the house, or something of his own. I don't think we've considered that. Doesn't prove IDI or anything. But wouldn't you think the R's were smart enough to know that would not get rid of DNA or whatever?

Also many have remarked that PR wouldn't have put the humongous size 12 panties on JonBenet and I have to agree. Urine voided postmortem because she was moved, while putting on the clean underwear (?) makes some sense, but another spot of blood afterwards?

 

[kelly london]

i am a mother of four kids and i don't care how rattled i am, i would never put size 12 on a size 6 person - they would be at least twice her size, not even grip around her waist - a mother would not make that mistake, no matter how important the wednesday panties were

 

[rashomon]

LinasK,
Also JonBenet's size-12 underwear has blood stains, and the corresponding area of her skin in the pubic area, shows no matching stains! This and fibers found in her genitalia suggests she was wiped down after being redressed in the size-12 underwear.

The injury was inflicted to the inner genital area (the vestibulum of the vagina), and therefore no stains on her outer genitals would be visible. And later, after JB had been wiped, some drops of blood could have trickled into the size 12s.
Does anyone know how much urine was on the panties and long underwear?
For I agree with you that had this been a case of toilet rage, the Ramseys would have made sure in their staging that JB was wearing dry underwear.
But the urine could be from post-mortem release, and the Ramseys might not have noticed it later anymore.
In another thread you mentioned why the blanket was not urine-stained too, but maybe it wasn't that much urine which was shed through post-mortem release.

But it is of course possible that the reason for JB's death was something far more sinister than toilet rage.
As far as I recall, Steve Thomas did not mention the incriminating fibers from John's shirt which were found in the crotch area of the panties. In Thomas' opinion, John Ramsey was totally innocent of the crime, and had no clue what happened to JB until he discovered her in the wine cellar.
This is very unlikely, especially in view of the implicating fibers which link John to the staging of the scene, if not to far more:
for JB's genital area showed were the signs of chronic abuse. A panel of seven doctors agreed about that. Even Coroner Dr. Meyer, who is no expert on sexual abuse, remarked that it looked as if the child had been digitally penetrated.

Who chronically abused John Benet?
Was her abuser also her killer? Not necessarily imo.

 

[angelwngs]

I keep coming back to the fact that JR took a shower that morning and PR didn't.Was it b/c he felt he had evidence on him that needed to be washed away?
I think he took a shower b/f the 911 call b/c they planned it that way.

When something bad happens, in which you are involved, would your not "feel dirty", whether you are trying to rid yourself of literal dirt/fibers/etc or not, would you not WANT to shower??? It was "symbolic" cleansing I assume, but I remember being under tremendous stress each time I returned home from the hospital, desperately wanting a shower, following my mother having a grand mal seizure, and her being hospitalized when she discovered she had a brain tumor. It was a form of therapy in a sense, a time to regroup in a few moments of private.

PR not getting a shower doesn't add up if she was involved. Could she have gotten a shower in the middle of the night instead and simply redressed in the same clothes as the night before to explain away the fibers from the clothes JBR had on when found. Could she have planned to throw herself on JBR's body and 'pray over her' to 'contaminate' her own clothing then???

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I think Paging Dr Detect was really onto something when he pointed out that the size 12s were meant to be a gift for cousin Jenny, and there was a box in the basement that had wrapped presents that had been opened in it. In considering that, it seems highly likely to me that the redresser chose the size 12s because they were there in the basement with the dead child who needed redressing. There does seem to be some issue with things needing to be on Wednesday, Christmas Day, though. Double you tee eff, all the way.

I have always wondered just how involved John Ramsey was in this entire scene of staging. I have pretty much assumed he was involved to some degree or else he would not have allowed Patsy to call 911 and friends over without being concerned that JonBenet's head would be cut off - he had to know that the RN was a fake. Now that we know his shirt fibers were found on JonBenet, we can further speculate that he was involved in the wiping/redressing as well, unless Patsy picked up the shirt he had worn that evening and used it to wipe off JB herself...which is possible.

I have always figured Patsy didn't shower because she ran out of time, but how does John figure into that? If he was involved, how did he have time to shower and she didn't? I don't believe for a second that Patsy actually intended to fly to Michigan in the same outfit she had worn for a good six hours the previous night.

 

[UKGuy]

I think Paging Dr Detect was really onto something when he pointed out that the size 12s were meant to be a gift for cousin Jenny, and there was a box in the basement that had wrapped presents that had been opened in it. In considering that, it seems highly likely to me that the redresser chose the size 12s because they were there in the basement with the dead child who needed redressing. There does seem to be some issue with things needing to be on Wednesday, Christmas Day, though. Double you tee eff, all the way.

I have always wondered just how involved John Ramsey was in this entire scene of staging. I have pretty much assumed he was involved to some degree or else he would not have allowed Patsy to call 911 and friends over without being concerned that JonBenet's head would be cut off - he had to know that the RN was a fake. Now that we know his shirt fibers were found on JonBenet, we can further speculate that he was involved in the wiping/redressing as well, unless Patsy picked up the shirt he had worn that evening and used it to wipe off JB herself...which is possible.

I have always figured Patsy didn't shower because she ran out of time, but how does John figure into that? If he was involved, how did he have time to shower and she didn't? I don't believe for a second that Patsy actually intended to fly to Michigan in the same outfit she had worn for a good six hours the previous night.

Nuisanceposter,

there was a box in the basement that had wrapped presents that had been opened in it.

If that is correct then it requires asking just who would know that?

Also Patsy is on record stating those size-12's were upstairs in JonBenet's dresser in her bedroom!

They were both involved, proof of this is contained in their interview statements, since they both independently know when to have memory lapses and deny stuff outright. And the forensic evidence links them both to the crime-scene, notwithstanding JonBenet being awake to eat pineapple etc.

imo John showered to remove any forensic evidence, which may suggest he was naked when in Jonbenet's company. Patsy similarly guessed if she wore the clothes she had had on all night, then the police may not request them?



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[rashomon]

Nuisanceposter,


If that is correct then it requires asking just who would know that?

Also Patsy is on record stating those size-12's were upstairs in JonBenet's dresser in her bedroom!

They were both involved, proof of this is contained in their interview statements, since they both independently know when to have memory lapses and deny stuff outright. And the forensic evidence links them both to the crime-scene, notwithstanding JonBenet being awake to eat pineapple etc.

imo John showered to remove any forensic evidence, which may suggest he was naked when in Jonbenet's company. Patsy similarly guessed if she wore the clothes she had had on all night, then the police may not request them?

But as far as I recall, all we have is only the Ramseys' testimony according to which John allegedly took a shower in the morning.
And suppose John did indeed take a shower to remove forensic evidence, then wouldn't it make sense for him to tell investigators that he hadn't taken shower at all?

 

[UKGuy]

But as far as I recall, all we have is only the Ramseys' testimony according to which John allegedly took a shower in the morning.
And suppose John did indeed take a shower to remove forensic evidence, then wouldn't it make sense for him to tell investigators that he hadn't taken shower at all?

rashomon,

Possibly, but maybe the shower is still wet or his towel is damp etc, will Patsy say he did? Too many variables to cover for something that cannot be linked with JonBenet's death.



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