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Patsy made no mistake in putting the size 12 panties on her. They were important more because they were the 'Wednesday' panties. No male is going to be bothered with putting Wednesday panties on his victim.:doh: That was far more important to Patsy than wondering whether the size discrepancy would be noticed, she probably figured it wouldn't be noticed right away or wasn't thinking clearly in the moment!kelly london said:my point on the oversized panties was that patsy most likely would not have made the mistake of putting the wrong size panties on her daughter - those panties were HUGE compared to little JBR. its more likely a male in the home did it - that is all
But how did fibers from John's shirt end up in the crotch area of these panties?LinasK said:Patsy made no mistake in putting the size 12 panties on her. They were important more because they were the 'Wednesday' panties. No male is going to be bothered with putting Wednesday panties on his victim.:doh: That was far more important to Patsy than wondering whether the size discrepancy would be noticed, she probably figured it wouldn't be noticed right away or wasn't thinking clearly in the moment!
rashomon said:But how did fibers from John's shirt end up in the crotch area of these panties?
A possible scenario: Patsy told him to take the Wednesday panties out of the package and put them on JB.
John's shirt fibers in the size 12 panties point to John Ramsey's involvement in the cover-up.
And no doubt John later knew that he was going to find JB when he opened the wine cellar door in the presence of Fleet White. I believe John himself had carried her body down there.
Or John is naked in his bedroom, and picks up his shirt to wipe JonBenet down?A possible scenario: Patsy told him to take the Wednesday panties out of the package and put them on JB.
LinasK said:Patsy made no mistake in putting the size 12 panties on her. They were important more because they were the 'Wednesday' panties. No male is going to be bothered with putting Wednesday panties on his victim.:doh: That was far more important to Patsy than wondering whether the size discrepancy would be noticed, she probably figured it wouldn't be noticed right away or wasn't thinking clearly in the moment!
In the movie PMPT,Schiller says the set was done very much like the real house was,details included, and I noticed some paint cans in the WC.I remember someone on WS mentioned this bf,but I agree,I think the metal on concrete sound was likely from those being moved.Eagle1 said:Melody Stanton's husband said he heard a sound after the scream which he hadn't heard, like metal hitting or scraping on concrete. I've always wondered if she was being beaten with a shovel or the metal baseball bat.
The spider web and dust on the windowwell grate proves it wasn't that.
Sure sounds that way, doesn't it.I recall in ST book her comment about not feeling pretty.And wasn't she in bed not feeling well Xmas day,bf going to the party?I think I recall reading that somewhere.Eagle1 said:I think her going to the school nurse on Mondays and her attempting a 911 call from the party on the 23rd proves she knew something that wasn't right was going on. Probably she was in pain, as the coroners said a previous injury, just about that old, was healing at the time of the fatal assault.
It sure sounds that way,IMO.I keep wondering if ST has since changed his scenerio of it being toilet rage in light of the fiber evidence they have now.UKGuy said:The size-12 Wednesday underwear was important to someone who wanted the appearance of JonBenet being abducted from her bed as she was placed in it, now I am assuming that the size-6 underwear that is missing is a Wednesday pair, and since the Ramsey's never knew if anyone at the White's had seen JonBenet's underwear, they had to redress JonBenet in a Wednesday pair. At this point her sexual assault was being masked.
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I keep coming back to the fact that JR took a shower that morning and PR didn't.Was it b/c he felt he had evidence on him that needed to be washed away?rashomon said:You think the intruder took the time to rummage in JB's drawers in order to find panties with 'Wednesday' on them? And: why would a sexual predator go to the trouble to put underwear back on JB at all? This doesn't make sense.
And let us not forget 'Occam's razor': fibers from John Ramsey's black shirt were found in the crotch area of the size 12 panties.
Whether he was the perp or the helper in the cover-up - the fiber evdence links JonBenet's father to this garment.
Okay, the shirt fibers obviously either landed there in one of two ways: 1)John kept his shirt on during the assault, or 2) he wiped her down using the shirt. Either occured before JB was re-dressed in the size 12 panties. The urine-staining could be post-mortem emptying of the bladder, and even the blood stain in the panties could have dripped from the paintbrush wound after redressing.rashomon said:But how did fibers from John's shirt end up in the crotch area of these panties?
A possible scenario: Patsy told him to take the Wednesday panties out of the package and put them on JB.
John's shirt fibers in the size 12 panties point to John Ramsey's involvement in the cover-up.
And no doubt John later knew that he was going to find JB when he opened the wine cellar door in the presence of Fleet White. I believe John himself had carried her body down there.
Yep me too.JMO8778 said:I keep coming back to the fact that JR took a shower that morning and PR didn't.Was it b/c he felt he had evidence on him that needed to be washed away?
I think he took a shower b/f the 911 call b/c they planned it that way.
LinasK said:Okay, the shirt fibers obviously either landed there in one of two ways: 1)John kept his shirt on during the assault, or 2) he wiped her down using the shirt. Either occured before JB was re-dressed in the size 12 panties. The urine-staining could be post-mortem emptying of the bladder, and even the blood stain in the panties could have dripped from the paintbrush wound after redressing.
The size 12 panties may have been placed on by John at Patsy's direction, it's possible. I don't know exactly how much role each of them played but I believe both Ramsey parents knew all about this murder and both were involved in the cover-up.
All depends on what you think occurred first.Either occured before JB was re-dressed in the size 12 panties.
The injury was inflicted to the inner genital area (the vestibulum of the vagina), and therefore no stains on her outer genitals would be visible. And later, after JB had been wiped, some drops of blood could have trickled into the size 12s.UKGuy said:LinasK,
Also JonBenet's size-12 underwear has blood stains, and the corresponding area of her skin in the pubic area, shows no matching stains! This and fibers found in her genitalia suggests she was wiped down after being redressed in the size-12 underwear.
When something bad happens, in which you are involved, would your not "feel dirty", whether you are trying to rid yourself of literal dirt/fibers/etc or not, would you not WANT to shower??? It was "symbolic" cleansing I assume, but I remember being under tremendous stress each time I returned home from the hospital, desperately wanting a shower, following my mother having a grand mal seizure, and her being hospitalized when she discovered she had a brain tumor. It was a form of therapy in a sense, a time to regroup in a few moments of private.JMO8778 said:I keep coming back to the fact that JR took a shower that morning and PR didn't.Was it b/c he felt he had evidence on him that needed to be washed away?
I think he took a shower b/f the 911 call b/c they planned it that way.
Nuisanceposter said:I think Paging Dr Detect was really onto something when he pointed out that the size 12s were meant to be a gift for cousin Jenny, and there was a box in the basement that had wrapped presents that had been opened in it. In considering that, it seems highly likely to me that the redresser chose the size 12s because they were there in the basement with the dead child who needed redressing. There does seem to be some issue with things needing to be on Wednesday, Christmas Day, though. Double you tee eff, all the way.
I have always wondered just how involved John Ramsey was in this entire scene of staging. I have pretty much assumed he was involved to some degree or else he would not have allowed Patsy to call 911 and friends over without being concerned that JonBenet's head would be cut off - he had to know that the RN was a fake. Now that we know his shirt fibers were found on JonBenet, we can further speculate that he was involved in the wiping/redressing as well, unless Patsy picked up the shirt he had worn that evening and used it to wipe off JB herself...which is possible.
I have always figured Patsy didn't shower because she ran out of time, but how does John figure into that? If he was involved, how did he have time to shower and she didn't? I don't believe for a second that Patsy actually intended to fly to Michigan in the same outfit she had worn for a good six hours the previous night.
If that is correct then it requires asking just who would know that?there was a box in the basement that had wrapped presents that had been opened in it.
But as far as I recall, all we have is only the Ramseys' testimony according to which John allegedly took a shower in the morning.UKGuy said:Nuisanceposter,
If that is correct then it requires asking just who would know that?
Also Patsy is on record stating those size-12's were upstairs in JonBenet's dresser in her bedroom!
They were both involved, proof of this is contained in their interview statements, since they both independently know when to have memory lapses and deny stuff outright. And the forensic evidence links them both to the crime-scene, notwithstanding JonBenet being awake to eat pineapple etc.
imo John showered to remove any forensic evidence, which may suggest he was naked when in Jonbenet's company. Patsy similarly guessed if she wore the clothes she had had on all night, then the police may not request them?
rashomon said:But as far as I recall, all we have is only the Ramseys' testimony according to which John allegedly took a shower in the morning.
And suppose John did indeed take a shower to remove forensic evidence, then wouldn't it make sense for him to tell investigators that he hadn't taken shower at all?