Body Removal

[Misty]

I know there has been widespread speculation from both the intruder and Ramsey theorists regarding the way the body was left in the house and yet not covered "lovingly." And, it does seem to be a contradiction of what a crime scene is "supposed" to look like.

I also follow the Hargon case and while my first thought was the husband, I knew that if it was not Michael, it most certainly was someone who knew the family. All the family had vanished (including a 4-year-old boy).
This was done for two reasons I think.
1. The killer was known to the victims -- all three had to be killed to hide the killer's identity.
2. Disposing of the bodies and if they were not found for an extended period of time would help to eliminate forensic evidence; again, hiding the identity of the killer.

In the JBR case, she was left in the house. This immediately thaws any credible theories that the killer was, indeed, a kidnapper for obvious reasons.

A parent who didn't want her exposed to the elements, remorse about the crime would leave the body in a somewhat protected environment. However, would a parent cover her mouth with ducttape? Would a parent cover her body haphazardly? Would a parent leave ligatures around her hands? If a parent staged the crime scene, then yes, because even though each of these items showed the killer to be unremorseful, none of these items were brutal as if they were done for show.

Would a pedophile intruder cover the body? Leave the body fully dressed? Wipe her down? Would a pedophile intruder leave his/her victim in the house? Statistically, the answer is no. This intruder would have taken his victim out of the house and certainly would not have cared in what position or where he left her unless his signature included posing the victim and posing the victim usually includes some kind of ritualistic behavior which satisfies the killer. However, posing usually includes some shock value and although the death of any child is shocking, there was no exceptional shock value included at her dump site.

In conclusion, the killer knew JonBenet just as the killer knew the Hargons family. The elements used in both cases were to disguise the killer's identity.

 

[BrotherMoon]

Was PR very histrionic? Very dramatic? From reading PMPT, I have gathered if PR was to do anything, it was to be overdone. Always more than necessary, too much to some. That also applies to the sexual staging and the garrote. I am beginning to think PR actually committed the murder, then JR found out after the fact. I am not even sure he helped with the staging, I just don't know.

Thank God! A post with sense and imagination.

The body was left where it was in the same manner as the wrapping of the body, the raising of the arms, the choice of shirt and the choice of the day of the event. The "staging" was NOT for police. The staging was for Patsy, just like the 12 Christmas trees and the weaving of the purple ribbon. It was her passion play. She was the author, the director AND the audience.

Thanks again little1, you may not be able to cross over to "knowing" but hold on to the scenario you described as a possiblity and you will glean more truth little by little (no pun intended) strange as it may appear.

 

[BlueCrab]

I know there has been widespread speculation from both the intruder and Ramsey theorists regarding the way the body was left in the house and yet not covered "lovingly." And, it does seem to be a contradiction of what a crime scene is "supposed" to look like.

I also follow the Hargon case and while my first thought was the husband, I knew that if it was not Michael, it most certainly was someone who knew the family. All the family had vanished (including a 4-year-old boy).
This was done for two reasons I think.
1. The killer was known to the victims -- all three had to be killed to hide the killer's identity.
2. Disposing of the bodies and if they were not found for an extended period of time would help to eliminate forensic evidence; again, hiding the identity of the killer.

In the JBR case, she was left in the house. This immediately thaws any credible theories that the killer was, indeed, a kidnapper for obvious reasons.

A parent who didn't want her exposed to the elements, remorse about the crime would leave the body in a somewhat protected environment. However, would a parent cover her mouth with ducttape? Would a parent cover her body haphazardly? Would a parent leave ligatures around her hands? If a parent staged the crime scene, then yes, because even though each of these items showed the killer to be unremorseful, none of these items were brutal as if they were done for show.

Would a pedophile intruder cover the body? Leave the body fully dressed? Wipe her down? Would a pedophile intruder leave his/her victim in the house? Statistically, the answer is no. This intruder would have taken his victim out of the house and certainly would not have cared in what position or where he left her unless his signature included posing the victim and posing the victim usually includes some kind of ritualistic behavior which satisfies the killer. However, posing usually includes some shock value and although the death of any child is shocking, there was no exceptional shock value included at her dump site.

In conclusion, the killer knew JonBenet just as the killer knew the Hargons family. The elements used in both cases were to disguise the killer's identity.

Misty,

Yes, JonBenet definitely knew her killer. He was a family member. Why else would he try to hide the sexual assault and write a silly 3-page ransom note to make it look like a kidnapping? An intruder would have no reason to do that. Only a family member would.

And, as the parents slept, an intruder would not sit downstairs with JonBenet at the breakfast room table and drink tea while JonBenet snacked on pineapple. Only a family member would risk that.

And a light dusting of snow in the middle of the night, that later melted before sun-up, wouldn't have stopped an intruder from taking the body with him. But the snow would have stopped a family member from carrying the body outside (to make it look more like a kidnapping) because he was afraid footprints would have shown in the snow from the house AND BACK AGAIN.

And Burke's fingerprints were on the bowl of pineapple, so Burke, the resident tea drinker, IMO was the family member who was downstairs with JonBenet about 1 1/2 to 2 hours before she died.

JMO

 

[Shylock]

an intruder would not sit downstairs with JonBenet at the breakfast room table and drink tea while JonBenet snacked on pineapple.

so Burke, the resident tea drinker, IMO was the family member who was downstairs with JonBenet about 1 1/2 to 2 hours before she died.

BC,
Where does this information come from about "drinking tea" and Burke being the tea drinker?

 

[LovelyPigeon]

An empty glass with a used tea bag was on the kitchen table when crime scene photos were taken.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

An intruder who wants a live child to do whatever with isn't likely to take the child who has been killed out of the house.

In the Hargon case, removing the bodies and carrying them 100 miles to the killer's property is most unusual, but not ever case nor every killer follows the "rules".

 

[Shylock]

An intruder who wants a live child to do whatever with isn't likely to take the child who has been killed out of the house.

And an intruder who writes a 3-page ransom note isn't likely to kill the child in the house.

 

[Toth]

In the Ramsey case, I don't think there was any desire to " do whatever ", the desire was to kill.

Hargons apparently were transported because he thought the burial site would be safer from discovery if he could control it.

 

[Toth]

And an intruder who writes a 3-page ransom note isn't likely to kill the child in the house.

There was no ransom note in the JonBenet Ramsey murder case.

There was merely an entertaining parody in the form of a ransom note which the intruder found extremely entertaining to write and exquisitely enjoyable to imagine the results of his handiwork the next morning.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

Toth, I'll agree with you there. Referring to the note as a ransom note is not accurate as the killer never intended to collect a ransom.

 

[BlueCrab]

BC,
Where does this information come from about "drinking tea" and Burke being the tea drinker?

The bowl of pineapple with Burke's fingerprints on it was on the breakfast room table. (The breakfast room is a separate room off the kitchen.) A huge spoon stuck out of the relatively small bowl. There was also a water glass on the table with a teabag in it. Patsy said she had cleaned up the table after they all ate a late pancake breakfast on Christmas day, and they had no lunch because they were going to the White's dinner party at 4 o'clock. Patsy said she did not put the bowl of pineapple or the water glass with a teabag in it on the table.

Tom Haney: "Take a little breather from the pineapple and let's talk about the glass. Do you drink hot tea?"

Patsy Ramsey: "No."

Tom Haney: "Iced tea?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Iced tea. Mostly in the summer"

Tom Haney: "Anybody else in the house drink any tea?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Burke drinks iced tea in the summer time."


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


Trip DeMuth: "Did you have seats that everybody gravitated to?'

Patsy Ramsey: "Yes."

Trip DeMuth: "Burke is closest to us in the picture?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Right."

The glass was on the table in front of Burke's seat at the table.

JMO

 

[Shylock]

There was no ransom note in the JonBenet Ramsey murder case.

I agree with you, Toth. The note was written by Patsy to point the crime out of the house.
Just think what would have happened if Patsy hadn't written the fake ransom note:

-The police would have done a much more thorough search of the house looking for JonBenet, not just looking for intruder entry points.

-A K9 unit might have been called in right away.

-In all probability, the body would have been discovered anywhere between 15 to 90 minutes after the police were called.

-The police would have found the body, instead of John Ramsey who poluted the crime scene.

-After finding the body, ALL THREE Ramseys would have been immediate suspects.

-All three Ramseys would have been taken to the station, separated, and interogated.

None of that happened because the Ransom note served its purpose VERY well. Patsy did a great job.

 

[Ivy]

Thanks, BC. I knew I'd read somewhere about Burke being an iced tea drinker and the glass with the tea bag in it being found on the table.

What were the additional person/people in your theory doing while Burke was drinking iced tea and JonBenet was eating pineapple? Or hadn't he/they arrived at the Ramseys' house yet?

imo

 

[Shylock]

The bowl of pineapple with Burke's fingerprints on it was on the breakfast room table.
There was also a water glass on the table with a teabag in it.
Patsy said she did not put the bowl of pineapple or the water glass with a teabag in it on the table.
Patsy Ramsey: "Burke drinks iced tea in the summer time."
The glass was on the table in front of Burke's seat at the table.

Very interesting BC, I'm glad you could look that up and post it. Yes, I think this is another good clue that points to Burke as the perp.

So what scenerio can we put together with this glass and tea bag? Would Burke have taken a glass of water, heated it up in the microwave, added sugar and maybe lemon, then added ice to cool it down before he joined JonBenet already sitting at the table eating pineapple?

I would also like to know if the glass was dusted for prints, and whose were on it.

 

[BlueCrab]

Thanks, BC. I knew I'd read somewhere about Burke being an iced tea drinker and the glass with the tea bag in it being found on the table.

What were the additional person/people in your theory doing while Burke was drinking iced tea and JonBenet was eating pineapple? Or hadn't he/they arrived at the Ramseys' house yet?

imo

Okay, we're jumping from known evidence about the pineapple and glass of tea to one of my theories with your question about a fifth person. If there was a fifth person in the house he could have been sitting at the table with JonBenet and Burke, or the kids could have been waiting for him to arrive. In my main BDI theory the fifth person was an overnight guest of Burke's and was known by the Ramseys.

JMO

 

[BlueCrab]

Very interesting BC, I'm glad you could look that up and post it. Yes, I think this is another good clue that points to Burke as the perp.

So what scenerio can we put together with this glass and tea bag? Would Burke have taken a glass of water, heated it up in the microwave, added sugar and maybe lemon, then added ice to cool it down before he joined JonBenet already sitting at the table eating pineapple?

I would also like to know if the glass was dusted for prints, and whose were on it.

The empty glass with a spent tea bag in it and the fingerprints on the bowl of pineapple suggest Burke was downstairs with JonBenet in the middle of the night after the parents had gone to bed and about 1 1/2 to 2 hours before JonBenet died.

JonBenet didn't like tea, but both JonBenet and Burke liked pineapple.

The bowl that contained the pineapple and the water glass were both stored in a cabinet that was out of reach for JonBenet but could be reached by Burke. There was a huge spoon in the small bowl of pineapple, which to me indicates something a child would do.

I'm sure the glass was dusted for fingerprints because the bowl was certainly dusted. But I don't know the results.

JMO

 

[Toltec]

Okay, Burke removed the pineapple from the refrigerator and placed it on the breakfast table. Either Burke or JonBenet removed a large spoon from the kitchen drawer. Do we know who's fingerprints are on the spoon?

Did Burke start playing Nintendo as soon as Mom and Dad went to bed? A very likely possibility. Did JonBenet go into Burke's room that night? A very likely possibility.

 

[BlueCrab]

Okay, Burke removed the pineapple from the refrigerator and placed it on the breakfast table. Either Burke or JonBenet removed a large spoon from the kitchen drawer. Do we know who's fingerprints are on the spoon?

Did Burke start playing Nintendo as soon as Mom and Dad went to bed? A very likely possibility. Did JonBenet go into Burke's room that night? A very likely possibility.

I'm sure the cops know whose fingerprints are on the spoon and the water glass, but it isn't public information. Very little information has been leaked about Burke.

JonBenet could very well have gone into Burke's room that night. She slept in Burke's room the night before (Christmas Eve night).

JMO

 

[Shylock]

I'm sure the cops know whose fingerprints are on the spoon and the water glass, but it isn't public information. Very little information has been leaked about Burke.

I'm surprised we didn't hear about the prints on the water glass from Thomas. He made a point of telling us about the prints on the bowl, prints on the note, and lack of prints on the flashlight.

 

[WolfmarsGirl]

...Would it be more likely for an intruder to leave a body or a family member? I want to try to disassociate this point from the Ransom Note. I know that will be hard to do, but I'm curious about this. For this question, please ignore the fact that a body AND a Ransom Note were left behind. I am just curious about the body...

Ok, here is what I think:

The fact that the body was left in the house tells me that it was either Patsy or Burke who killed JBR. Now, honestly, I don't think Burke did this. I am convinced that John did not kill her either.

If John would have killed her, he would have had no problem leaving the house in the middle of the night to hide the body. He was the 'man' of the house. He was always traveling "hither and yon." As the father, he was not always expected to be present in the home.

He ran out to the plane, for instance, on Christmas day. I highly doubt Patsy would have an errand to run on this particular day.

Patsy was a fixture in the home, especially when the kids would have been the most vulnerable. And, when they are asleep, they are the most vulnerable.

I know from experience, that once the household is asleep, I do not leave the house. I have to stand guard, so to speak, because my little girl is sleeping, if that makes any sense.

On several occasions, of course, I have remembered at 1 a.m. that wolfkid needs something for school in the morning, so I run out. Or, I have been in need of some late-night Excedrin, or some other item that I was fresh out of, and I go to the store.

But, every time I do, I dread the thought of my child waking up and looking for me. My husband is just not 'mommy,' and I would hate for my groggy little girl to be roaming the halls searching for (and not finding) me.

At the risk of sounding stereotypical, or worse, sexist, I have to say that women, in general, would be greatly missed in the middle of the night. Men, not so much...

That being said, imagine this scenario: Patsy kills JBR. She has to get the body out of the house. So, she puts the body in the car and drives to a remote location...

In the meantime, Burke (or John) wakes up to find Patsy and JBR missing...Highly strange. They call the police immediately. Of course they would. After all, they would think there was a woman and a child out wandering the streets in the middle of the night.

Now, if Patsy wakes up and finds John missing and even if she finds JBR missing, chances are she wouldn't call the police. I think she might just assume that John took JBR out to see the plane, or to run some last-minute errand since they were both awake.

I think Patsy knew that her absence would look extremely unusual. Mom doesn't leave the house at odd hours of the night...It just doesn't happen.

Also, there is the point to be made that Patsy could not take JBR away from the house. To take the body away would be just like abandonment. It would be exruciatingly difficult for a mom to leave her child out in the cold somewhere, dead or not. I think a man would have few reservations about leaving the body outside.

Patsy did, however, need to get rid of the body. She chose the furthest point in the house, away from the living quarters, that she could possibly find and still have JBR at 'home.'

It was almost as if the body was out of the house. Almost, but not quite.

Patsy was able to stage the crime-scene, including the molestation because of her overwhelming closeness to JBR.

Taking the body out of the house was impossible for Patsy, also because of the same closeness.

John wouldn't have a problem, IMO.

Also, if John was involved in the cover-up, either Patsy or John could have taken the body away from the house without fear of the other one discovering their absence. They could cover for each other in case Burke woke up. I think John would have been given this task, since Patsy would have been emotionally unable.

An intruder would have taken the live child out of the home. He would have killed her elsewhere. If he killed her in the home, he would have left her out in the open. No question about it.

If you take away the ransom note, as you suggested Arielle, here is what you have:

A little girl was killed on Christmas night in her own home...three family members were present.

What does that look like to you?