Body Removal

[BlueCrab]

An intruder would have taken the live child out of the home. He would have killed her elsewhere. If he killed her in the home, he would have left her out in the open. No question about it.

Correct. So a Ramsey killed JonBenet -- but why didn't he (she) take the body out of the house after going through all the trouble of writing a fake 3-page ransom note implying that JonBenet was being held for ransom? All the perp had to do to complete the kidnapping scenario was to carry her out the door and place her in a neighbor's back yard. That would have taken only a few minutes.

IMO the answer is SNOW. There was a light dusting of snow that night that would have left the perp's foot prints from the house and back again. The dusting of snow melted before sun-up due to the residual heat in the ground -- but the killer wouldn't have known that. The killer was trapped inside the house with a ransom note AND the victim.

JMO

 

[Misty]

Correct. So a Ramsey killed JonBenet -- but why didn't he (she) take the body out of the house after going through all the trouble of writing a fake 3-page ransom note implying that JonBenet was being held for ransom? All the perp had to do to complete the kidnapping scenario was to carry her out the door and place her in a neighbor's back yard. That would have taken only a few minutes.

IMO the answer is SNOW. There was a light dusting of snow that night that would have left the perp's foot prints from the house and back again. The dusting of snow melted before sun-up due to the residual heat in the ground -- but the killer wouldn't have known that. The killer was trapped inside the house with a ransom note AND the victim.

JMO

Perhaps, but I think it was more psychological -- impossible for the killer to leave the child out in the elements. The ransom note, just like the duct tape, wrist bindings, the ligature, and sexual molestation, etc. were tasks performed to divert the investigation -- to draw officials away from the real killer.

P.S. The psychological motive is further illustrated by the fact that JonBenet was face down when she was strangled (strangled, not garotted).

 

[Shylock]

IMO the answer is SNOW. There was a light dusting of snow that night that would have left the perp's foot prints from the house and back again. The dusting of snow melted before sun-up due to the residual heat in the ground -- but the killer wouldn't have known that. The killer was trapped inside the house with a ransom note AND the victim.

I don't think snow had a thing to do with it. It could have been an 80 degree summer night and removing the body still would not have been the safe (or smart) thing to do. All it would have taken was ONE person to spot someone leaving or returning to the house and the whole scam would have been blown wide open. There would have been no way to explain it.

 

[BlueCrab]

I don't think snow had a thing to do with it. It could have been an 80 degree summer night and removing the body still would not have been the safe (or smart) thing to do. All it would have taken was ONE person to spot someone leaving or returning to the house and the whole scam would have been blown wide open. There would have been no way to explain it.

Then why write a ransom note that said "We have your daughter" and then leave the body in the house? There was a reason the body wasn't at least taken outside to complete the fake kidnapping. IMO it was the light dusting of snow that trapped the perp in the house.

JMO

 

[Ivy]

I think that when the note was written, the Rs probably were planning to remove the body from the house...maybe in a suitcase...and leave it somewhere to be found later by searchers, but they changed their minds for a variety of reasons, including fear of being seen and fear of leaving footprints in the dusting of snow. I think another reason they might have changed their minds was that when it came down to it, they couldn't bear to dump the body of their precious daughter. If they'd planned to put the body in a suitcase, maybe rigor had set in by the time the note was finished, making putting the body into a suitcase impossible.

Regardless of whether they removed the body or left it in the house, the note was essential. It was the only "evidence" they could provide that an intruder had killed JonBenet. No note = no "proof" of an intruder.

imo

 

[Britt]

I agree partially with Wolfmarsgirl, Ivy and BlueCrab.

One thing I don't agree with anyone on is the idea that the Ramseys left JB's body in the house only because they couldn't bear to part with it or leave it somewhere outside. IMO the Ramseys would (and did) put their own preservation ahead of any squeamish or sentimental concerns.

I think it's possible Patsy alone killed JB, did most of the staging and began the coverup by herself... John joined in later (and before the 911 call):

Patsy, working alone, couldn't take the body out of the house without risking alerting John and Burke. And by the time John pitched in, escape options were no longer available, possibly due to snow, time contraints, and rigor which prevented hiding the body in the suitcase.

 

[Brefie]

What I don't understand is how Patsy (possibly) couldn't bare to leave her daughter out in the cold, but could 'stage' molestation? I would have thought that if the child was dead, the molesting would be worse than the cold.
I'm very interested in all of your ideas on this.

 

[Ivy]

I don't believe the molestion was staging. In fact, I think it was the catalyst that led to her death. IMO JonBenet and Burke were playing sexual exploration games. Burke inserted the broken paint stick into her vagina and without meaning to, hurt her. When she reacted to the pain and tried to get up, he panicked, fearful she'd tell on him, and in a knee-jerk reaction, he yanked the neck cord hard, simultaneously hitting her on the head with the Maglite. He then gave the cord a second hard yank and, still in a panic, held it taut too long, causing her death.

imo

 

[BrotherMoon]

What I don't understand is how Patsy (possibly) couldn't bare to leave her daughter out in the cold, but could 'stage' molestation? I would have thought that if the child was dead, the molesting would be worse than the cold.
I'm very interested in all of your ideas on this.

I don't think the molestation was staging, I think it was done compulsively with the fingers after the garrote was constructed. Patsy crossed many lines over time, the sex thing was just one of them.

There is a dual nature to the handling of the body, part care, part abuse.
This is because Patsy was working out her own split nature on her daughter. She punished her dark, criminal nature by the abuse and attended her light, spiritual nature by posing the arms in a "praise" gesture, by saving the face form abuse, by wrapping and entombing the body and later claiming she is an angel.

This dual nature is evident in the ransom note as well: words and phrases from cop movies and crime books and references to The Bible as well.

Patsy could do horrible things to JonBenet because at the time the girl was an object, not a human being. In the end the body is made up for burrial, Patsy says to Burke "Look at her, she's perfect.", and the angel is in heaven. Patsy's inner conflict between dark and light is resolved by proxy on an object that happened to be real person that died in the process.

 

[Toltec]

If the intruder was a photographer,he may have wanted the windowless room to keep odd flashes from perhaps alerting a neighbor. When he finished ,he had no reason to do anymore than leave her in that same windowless room. Didn't something suggest this? Wasn't Steve having a "hissy" over Hunter suggesting a photographer's tripod as the instrument for the head blow?
Who buys black duct tape? Isn't silver the norm everywhere? Black gaffers tape is used for the stage and photography.....IMO

Sissi...then can you explain the strange lights a neighbor reported seeing around midnight in the kitchen?? If this intruder did not want to alert neighbors???

Black duct tape was used by a photographer who framed JonBenet's picture. I believe Patsy removed the strip of black duct tape from her own picture...the one removed by Aunt Pam. I also believe the cord came from the picture.

 

[Toltec]

BlueCrab...Det. Haney questioned Patsy about finding fingerprints on the bowl that was left out on the breakfast table.

Why didn't Haney question Patsy regarding fingerprints on the spoon? Why didn't Patsy ask Haney if fingerprints were found on the spoon?

Is it because Patsy already knows who's fingerprints are on the spoon?

 

[Ivy]

Anyone know what the handles of Rs' silverware looked like--namely the handle of the spoon that was in the pineapple? The handles of my silverware have a lot of "gingerbread" ornamentation, and it would probably be hard to lift a print from them.

imo

 

[LovelyPigeon]

Ivy, I've seen that photo but don't recall what the silverware looked like. As you said, some silverware handles would be difficult to get a usable fingerprint from.

Even smooth surfaces don't always yield usable fingerprints.

 

[WolfmarsGirl]

...
Patsy could do horrible things to JonBenet because at the time the girl was an object, not a human being. In the end the body is made up for burrial, Patsy says to Burke "Look at her, she's perfect.", and the angel is in heaven. Patsy's inner conflict between dark and light is resolved by proxy on an object that happened to be real person that died in the process.

Brothermoon, let me add a bit to this thought.

Patsy was exceptionally close to JBR. The child was, in Patsy's mind, an extension of Patsy. There was some unhealthy 'enmeshing' going on there.

IMO, the molestation and the staging was no different to Patsy than the things the rest of us do every day to our children.

I mean, think about, as a mom, wiping away crusty 'boogies' armed with little more than spit on your finger, or catching vomit in your bare hands, or medicating diaper rash, or using a rectal thermometer, ir pulling a splinter out of a filthy little foot with your teeth, etc., etc. How many otherwise repulsive tasks do we undertake every day, as mothers?

I think the faked molestation was just one step further for Patsy...I don't think the father could have done this unless he was molesting the live JBR previously. I don't think he was.

 

[BrotherMoon]

The prevailing theory is accident, clumsey cover-up with rudimentary knowledge of criminal behavior from crime books and movies. This is rather ego centric form the police perspective. I don't think the staging was for them. Neither was the note. I think it was all by Patsy for Patsy.

 

[Shylock]

I don't think the staging was for them. Neither was the note. I think it was all by Patys for Patsy.

You need to consider what would have happened that morning if there had been no note. It would have been a whole different ballgame.

 

[why_nutt]

I mean, think about, as a mom, wiping away crusty 'boogies' armed with little more than spit on your finger, or catching vomit in your bare hands, or medicating diaper rash, or using a rectal thermometer, ir pulling a splinter out of a filthy little foot with your teeth, etc., etc. How many otherwise repulsive tasks do we undertake every day, as mothers?

I think the faked molestation was just one step further for Patsy...I don't think the father could have done this unless he was molesting the live JBR previously. I don't think he was.

I agree with what you write. For Patsy, JonBenet's "place where the bathing suit touches" was just another area of skin to look at and touch every day. Patsy even made sure (NE transcripts, page 257) to note that JonBenet was not one to complain about rashes, so Patsy would have to examine the area herself when JonBenet "was bathing or something" to see if any rash was present. Patsy also said that JonBenet did not bathe herself; only Patsy did. So how was that area getting clean without a certain mother touching it every day with her palms and fingers and soap and water?

Yes, a case can be made for Patsy having been capable of staging the molestation, given the facts of familiarity with JonBenet's body and subsequent lack of need to overcome distate with handling it, the forensic finding that the abrasion which is considered an artifact of molestation is so shallowly located near the vaginal opening and confined to such a small square area in a way uncharacteristic of a stranger's abuse, and the motive to stage abuse, even if in a superficial way, as yet another arrow (like the note) meant to point outside the house for blame, rather than inside to a family member.

 

[Britt]

The prevailing theory is accident, clumsey cover-up with rudimentary knowledge of criminal behavior from crime books and movies. This is rather ego centric form the police perspective. I don't think the staging was for them. Neither was the note. I think it was all by Patys for Patsy.

I think it was "all of the above." IMO the staging simultaneously served multiple purposes, both conscious and subconscious. See, for example, Dr. Andrew Hodges' decoding of the ransom note. BrotherMoon, you may have similarly decoded the staged crime scene.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

Patsy says on p256-57 that when JonBenét would complain that her "bottom was hurting" from irritation cause by not wiping well after she urinated or defecated, Patsy would apply some Desitin with a tissue.

A 6 year old child isn't going to do a great job bathing themselves alone, plus they like to have Mom help with a bath. It's a social time. Mom doesn't have to do the washing, either, but can tell the child, wash off your face, wash off your arms, wash off your bottom, wash your ears, etc

Mom can notice redness or irritation when the child is undressing or dressing after the bath. Children with irritation will often scratch or rub the area, too, which prompts moms to ask if they itch or hurt, which can lead to a doctor's visit or application of soothing medication doctor has already prescribed.

It's part of what moms with young children need to do.

 

[Toltec]

I beg to differ...children do not like washing their private parts. My 7-y-o niece still needs to have her mommy wash her bottom. That is the most important area for a young girl to have washed because rashes do occur.

JonBenet bathed in Patsy's tub, not her own according to LHP. Burke bathed in John's tub..not his own.