Bosma Murder Trial 06.10.16 - Day 59 - Charge to jury

[sleuther76]

Ok, I've followed many huge trials, more than a dozen. I've never heard a judges charge this in depth, he's pretty much rehashing all the evidence.

That's his job ... with this amount of differing types of evidence, it is important to understand how to interpret it and how to weight it. I think he is doing a great job. A lot of our debates on here could have really used this direction a lot earlier (i.e. activities someone took after an event do no count as evidence towards premeditation).

 

[Georgeo]

I hope the judge doesn't end up confusing the jury with all of this very technical dialogue.... it almost seems like there should be a university degree or college diploma needed to become a professional juror!

The lawyers and judge have many, many years of education and experience in law (theory and practice), yet regular citizens who come from all walks of life (ie. factory worker, teacher, fireman, housewife, accountant, waitress, etc....) are chosen and to expected to analyze all of the complicated evidence, precedents, and witness testimony and make sense of all of it, and come to a conclusion that all 12 of them agree with? Wow. Even expert witness opinion can vary, depending on their opinion, yet this group of 12 citizens is tasked with making a decision that will affect the two accused's future.

Just MOO.

 

[canadiangirl]

"If a person knows that someone intends to commit a crime, and encourages it, that person who encourages it, is also guilty of the crime the other commits."by Adam Carter 2:34 PM

There's also instances where the accused have planned to commit a certain offence, like a theft, and then something else happens.
by Adam Carter 2:36 PM

I found this comment interesting considering no other charges were laid in this case. (with the exception of CN AATF).

 

[sleuther76]

I hope the judge doesn't end up confusing the jury with all of this very technical dialogue.... it almost seems like there should be a university degree or college diploma needed to become a professional juror!

The lawyers and judge have many, many years of education and experience in law (theory and practice), yet regular citizens who come from all walks of life (ie. factory worker, teacher, fireman, housewife, accountant, waitress, etc....) are chosen and to expected to analyze all of the complicated evidence, precedents, and witness testimony and make sense of all of it, and come to a conclusion that all 12 of them agree with? Wow. Even expert witness opinion can vary, depending on their opinion, yet this group of 12 citizens is tasked with making a decision that will affect the two accused's future.

Just MOO.

Jurors should NOT be a select group of society. It is highly important that jurors are representative of the greater society (jury of your peers).

Remember, we are talking about taking someone's life away (essentially) this is why the burden of proof is so high in these types of cases.

 

[sleuther76]

I found this comment interesting considering no other charges were laid in this case. (with the exception of CN AATF).

Agreed, that also stood out to me. The question is, did MS know DM intended to kill TB AND did he encourage him to do so. IMHO we haven't seen any evidence of that.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

That's his job ... with this amount of differing types of evidence, it is important to understand how to interpret it and how to weight it. I think he is doing a great job. A lot of our debates on here could have really used this direction a lot earlier (i.e. activities someone took after an event do no count as evidence towards premeditation).

I agree. Regarding your last sentence though, I interpreted that portion of the charge to mean that after-the-fact conduct can't be seen as evidence on its own, but can be used as support for/against considering reasonable doubt/premeditation when combined with other evidence. Probably not explaining my thoughts clearly here, and I could be wrong.

MOO


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[Kamille]

I hope the judge doesn't end up confusing the jury with all of this very technical dialogue.... it almost seems like there should be a university degree or college diploma needed to become a professional juror!

The lawyers and judge have many, many years of education and experience in law (theory and practice), yet regular citizens who come from all walks of life (ie. factory worker, teacher, fireman, housewife, accountant, waitress, etc....) are chosen and to expected to analyze all of the complicated evidence, precedents, and witness testimony and make sense of all of it, and come to a conclusion that all 12 of them agree with? Wow. Even expert witness opinion can vary, depending on their opinion, yet this group of 12 citizens is tasked with making a decision that will affect the two accused's future.

Just MOO.

I believe there is good reason why innocent people most often oft for trial by judge only.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

Court is now back in session.
by Adam Carter 2:58 PM

Goodman says he anticipates that the jury might be "getting tired of his voice" and close to "having nightmares with his voice" but thanks them for their attention.
by Adam Carter 3:00 PM

Goodman now moving to the offences themselves.
by Adam Carter 3:00 PM

 

[don_quixote]

Yes. It's always been clear that there is a 10 minute problem in the timeline. Loop via Book is one thought, potentially supported by Bullman testimony. That assumes Smich misremembered the route they took, which is possible for a variety of reasons. The SS timestamp being out/additional sightings being Tim's truck is of course another significant and quite credible possibility. But, the fact remains that every permutation has a compromise of some kind.
...

Not really. IIRC, Bullman never claimed they continued on Book after Trinity. What he said is that they turned west on Book as they exited from the field but he doesn't know whether they turned at the intersection or continued on Book.

That's my recollection.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

Agreed, that also stood out to me. The question is, did MS know DM intended to kill TB AND did he encourage him to do so. IMHO we haven't seen any evidence of that.

I believe it is either/or, i.e. Did MS know DM intended to kill TB, OR did he encourage him to do so. Not both.

MOO


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[Kamille]

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 3m3 minutes ago
Jury is back in. Justice Goodman is continuing with his charge. This is Day 1. #Bosma

Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 2m2 minutes ago
#Bosma judge says jurors might be tired of the sound of his voice by now. He has less than an hour to go today. Back Monday for rest. #Bosma

Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 1m1 minute ago
Judge says he noticed some jurors' eyes' were glazing over. #Bosma

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1m1 minute ago
Goodman says jury is tired of hearing his voice. Says he imagines that their eyes "glazed over" during explanation of parties to offence.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 51s52 seconds ago
Goodman says he will go over that portion again on Monday. Now going over the actual charge of first degree murder on indictment.

Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 39s40 seconds ago
Both Millard and Smich are accused of first degree murder of #TimBosma on the indictment, judge says.

Alex Pierson ‏@AlexpiersonAMP 49s50 seconds ago
Justice Goodman admits to seeing some jurors eyes glazing over. He promises all this will soon make sense. @AM900CHML

Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 1m1 minute ago
Both Millard and Smich are accused of first degree murder of #TimBosma on the indictment, judge says.

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 1m1 minute ago
Now onto the actual first-degree murder charge faced by the two accused. #Bosma

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 43s44 seconds ago
Crown's onus to prove guilt never changes. Millard and Smich have no burden to prove anything.

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 40s41 seconds ago
"Millard and Smich have no burden whatsoever to prove anything," Goodman says. Onus is on Crown. #Bosma

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 47s48 seconds ago
Jurisdiction and date are not at issue. Identity of accused is established, but who did what is still "a very live issue." #Bosma

Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 59s60 seconds ago
Millard and Smich don't have to prove anything, judge says. Crown has to prove jurisdiction, date, and identity of accused. #Bosma

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 30s31 seconds ago
Details of who did what "is still a very live issue," he says. #Bosma

Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 27s28 seconds ago
Who did what is still contested and a live issue in this trial, even though we know where, when and who was involved, judge says. #Bosma

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 55s56 seconds ago
A number of possible verdicts to consider. 1st degree murder but also lesser and included offences.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 25s26 seconds ago
Culpability for manslaughter needs certain elements to be proven. 2nd includes all that, plus more. 1st includes all that plus more.

 

[brightii]

I agree. Regarding your last sentence though, I interpreted that portion of the charge to mean that after-the-fact conduct can't be seen as evidence on its own, but can be used as support for/against considering reasonable doubt/premeditation when combined with other evidence. Probably not explaining my thoughts clearly here, and I could be wrong.

MOO


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Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 2m2 minutes ago
"Distinction between proven motive to steal a truck and proven motive to kill." — Justice Goodman


Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 1m1 minute ago
After the fact conduct can help a jury decide, judge says. There is a lot in this case. It is circumstantial evidence. #Bosma


Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 53s54 seconds ago
After the fact conduct is circumstantial evidence you may take into count along with all evidence in this case.


Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1m1 minute ago
"Knowing and intentionally participated in a charged offence."


Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 56s56 seconds ago
What a person said and did after an offense could be consistent with what you'd expect from someone who committed a crime. #Bosma


molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 55s55 seconds ago
Goodman says it's important to remember that there is a difference between a motive to steal and a motive to kill. #Bosma


Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 9s10 seconds ago
Attempts to tamper with witnesses, destruction of evidence, and flight from police can all be considered by jury. #Bosma

I agree with your understanding, Mrs.T.

All MOO.

 

[billandrew]

Jurors should NOT be a select group of society. It is highly important that jurors are representative of the great society (jury of your peers).

Remember, we are talking about taking someone's life away (essentially) this is why the burden of proof is so high in these types of cases.

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

- Blackstone's formulation

 

[Kamille]

The jury will consider manslaughter, second degree murder and first degree murder in that order for their deliberations.
by Adam Carter 3:04 PM

 

[sleuther76]

I believe there is good reason why innocent people most often oft for trial by judge only.

MOO

So your opinion is that CN is innocent? (tongue in cheek)

 

[Kamille]

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 1m1 minute ago
Culpability for manslaughter requires certain things to be proven. For 2nd degree murder, that + more. And that + more for 1st degree #Bosma

Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 53s54 seconds ago
Homicide in Canada means you cause the death of another. Culpable homicide means you intend the death. 1st, 2nd degree + manslaughter

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1m1 minute ago
Culpable homicide is causing death of another person unlawfully. 3 levels: manslaughter, 2nd degree murder, 1st degree murder.

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 1m1 minute ago
He tells them they will consider all 3 levels in this case, in that order. #Bosma

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 33s34 seconds ago
All levels are to be considered. If not guilty of 1st, could be guilty of second, or manslaughter or not guilty of an offence.

Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 54s54 seconds ago
First degree is the highest level of blameworthiness for homicide in Canada. If a jury doesn't think 1st applies, can be 2nd or manslaughter

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 24s24 seconds ago
If they are found not guilty of 1st, they could be found guilty of 2nd or manslaughter. #Bosma

 

[CJPRINCESS]

Goodman is now talking about the spatter bloodstains, which showed that someone had used a hose on the truck trying to clean it.
by Adam Carter 1:40 PM

Just a thought I don't recall anyone suggesting this. We put alot of wonder and speculation into this hose. Is it just possible that this was the same hose used at the hanger, brought back to Maplegate and left running to flush the hose itself from blood/DNA evidence?

 

[Kamille]

Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 29s29 seconds ago
2nd deg murder is when a person causes the death of another during an unlawful act and knew it would cause harm or would be likely to.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 22s22 seconds ago
When speaking of 2nd degree murder, judge will say murder. When speaking of 1st degree murder, he will call it 1st degree.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 15s15 seconds ago
Murder is causing death by an unlawful means intending to cause death or bodily harm knowing it could cause death.

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 13s13 seconds ago
Manslaughter is different than murder. Murder is when death or serious bodily harm is intentional, knowing death could occur.

Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 28s28 seconds ago
Manslaughter happens when someone doesn't mean to kill another, but should have known that death could result from his/her actions.

 

[sleuther76]

"it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

- blackstone's formulation

here here!!!

 

[Kamille]

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 44s44 seconds ago
Difference between manslaughter and murder. Punch someone, they fall, hit head and die. That is manslaughter. Didn't intend to cause death.

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 24s24 seconds ago
If you punch someone and they fall and die, this is manslaughter. Death was not intended. #Bosma

Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 8s8 seconds ago
The distinction between manslaughter and murder is in the state of mind of the accused. Has to be intentional. #Bosma