Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #16

[andreww]

The phones also caught them up. The numbers showed up on 3 different phones. The link was made without the tattoo. They showed their faces to both Igor, Sharlene Bosma and Wayne DeBoer. It was only a matter of time. I don't for one minute believe that they would have gotten away with it. BTW, the Bosma Army wasn't about to back down either. The pressure was huge.

What I do believe is that they got away with LB and felt invicible. They figured they could do whatever they wanted and they were wrong.

MOO

Not sure the would have been caught by the phones unless they were stupid enough to use the bate phone to call one of their personal numbers?

 

[Errrr]

One thing that seems to keep being a sticking point for me, that still gives me the tiniest bit of doubt about Smich's knowledge of the plan ahead of time, is the fact that he truly does seem like he's cleaned up his act and is a very different person now and I could see how someone in his position would only make the decision to testify because he felt the need to come clean about what happened, being overcome with guilt. But on the other hand, has he changed so much that he wouldn't tell half-truths to mostly cover his own *advertiser censored*? Is that even real change at all?
I'm like 95% on him. But the other 5% can see how it's possible he really wasn't expecting DM to do what he did.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Smoking dope and drinking beer all day is really tough when you're in prison. Getting a GED would be a treat compared to staring at concrete blocks and has the added bonus of making you look good on the stand.

 

[canadiangirl]

Paraphrasing from yesterday...

Fraser: You met with Millard for 50 minutes, what did you talk about?

Smich: I don't remember

Fraser: You talked about hiding the guns and drugs!

Smich: Thats not true.


So how would Smich know that they didn't talk about the guns and drugs if he didn't remember the conversation? :thinking:

This is all after the fact stuff. It doesn't show premeditation for murder IMO

 

[ABro]

The phones also caught them up. The numbers showed up on 3 different phones. The link was made without the tattoo. They showed their faces to both Igor, Sharlene Bosma and Wayne DeBoer. It was only a matter of time. I don't for one minute believe that they would have gotten away with it. BTW, the Bosma Army wasn't about to back down either. The pressure was huge.

What I do believe is that they got away with LB and felt invicible. They figured they could do whatever they wanted and they were wrong.

MOO

Without Igor and the tattoo, the only thing I see they could have done is cell tower dumps from Ancaster and the Igor test drive area. Look for the common numbers, which would likely have led them eventually to Millard and Smich, but it would have taken way longer and a lot of the evidence would have been gone.

So many of the friends and associates lied to police that I see no reason to believe they would have eventually come forward.

 

[Tealgrove]

Not sure the would have been caught by the phones unless they were stupid enough to use the bate phone to call one of their personal numbers?

It was by tracking the calls on the Bate phone that they linked Igor/Tim and the other gentlemen who slept through the call. They made the connection very quickly in fact. I know there are more details regarding the connection etc., but it's way back in the beginning and I have to go to a meeting.

 

[ABro]

It was by tracking the calls on the Bate phone that they linked Igor/Tim and the other gentlemen who slept through the call. They made the connection very quickly in fact. I know there are more details regarding the connection etc., but it's way back in the beginning and I have to go to a meeting.

Yes but if Igor hadn't given them the tattoo, they would have reached a dead end. As I said earlier, the only other possibility I see is cell tower dumps looking for the common numbers that were in Ancaster MOnday night and Igor's tower range Sunday afternoon.

Igor didn't give them Millard, he gave them a tattoo and an Indiana Jones satchel. (But I don't believe the cops mentioned the satchel at the tattoo press conference.)

 

[Lexiintoronto]

For those that are asking about the chip key. YES, TB'S truck had the chip key.

Thank you for answering that.

If we believe MS, he said they were going to test drive the truck, go back & steal it. Without the transponder key, how did they expect to do that?

They left prints on IT's truck & showed their faces to him when they test-drove his truck. Was the plan to steal his truck as well, so those things didn't matter...was it planned that he would be another fatality?

$15K for the Eliminator, additional $$ to modify it to attach to a trailer...for a $24K truck?

(I'm sorry in advance as I'm sure these questions have been asked and answered. I wasn't able to follow the thread on WS as much as I wanted to )

 

[DeepWoodsOff]

You know...I keep thinking about this incinerator. I think the vast majority of us do not believe it was intended to be used in the way DM's lawyers presented it (animal incineration business.) I don't think even DM is daft enough to believe that a homemade incinerator put together by SS would be passable for use in a veterinarian business model either. So that leaves us with the true intent of his purchase being to dispose of bodies. We know poor Tim met that fate and the hunch many have is that LB may have met the same. Think about this...had DM and MS gotten away with this one, how many more would have followed? Who amongst us are the lucky ones that didn't meet this fate as a result of them being caught? Is there a boat owner out there that may have met the same fate? What did DM want next? Another truck? Trailer? Once they proved to themselves that the disposal plan was infallible...who knows if they would have stopped. MOO and general ramblings for a Thursday morning.

 

[Errrr]

In the ten days following DMs arrest your little angel Mark Smich managed to deal about a pound of weed, reached out to a known weapons dealer and likely sold at least one gun. Yep, Del's arrest really made him see the light and turn over a new leaf.

Maybe the other gun was used in WM so they had to use Marks this time. LE could have the other gun.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Yes but if Igor hadn't given them the tattoo, they would have reached a dead end. As I said earlier, the only other possibility I see is cell tower dumps looking for the numbers that were in Ancaster MOnday night and Igor's tower range Sunday afternoon.

Igor didn't give them Millard, he gave them a tattoo and an Indiana Jones satchel. (But I don't believe the cops mentioned the satchel at the tattoo press conference.)

Not to discount the importance of IT giving them the tip about the 'ambition' tattoo, but you don't think MS's prints on IT's truck would have led them to MS & then DM?

 

[ABro]

Not to discount the importance of IT giving them the tip about the 'ambition' tattoo, but you don't think MS's prints on IT's truck would have led them to MS & then DM?

They didn't get any prints from Igor's truck. He cleaned it after the test drive.

There was zero fingerprint evidence for MS entered as evidence and only two MIllard fingerprints on TB's truck.

What was discussed at trial was that MS was worried his fingerprints might be found on Igor's truck. But they weren't.

 

[Mscree]

No it wouldn't have been. AJ's call to crime stoppers would have eventually been traced back to him and he would have sung like a canary when they showed up at his front door. Failing that, as soon as a crime stoppers reward was offered, one of Millards minions would have eventually ratted him out.

Would that not really show that you can't trust crime stoppers. That's their thing private anonymous tips sometimes with a cash rewards. It's also done privately not through the police

 

[Errrr]

Of course, they're different. This is a self selecting group of people who come here to discuss crime. Many not only want to know "the truth." They are convinced they can find it. Over and over again, we see posters who think they know more than recognized authorities like the police (Yes, there is a third suspect), forensics experts (he must have been shot from behind), the lawyers (DM's lawyers are so awful), etc.

I see a huge difference between people who go online to discuss this case and those I talk to in the real world about it. There is a large streak of conspiratorial thinking online in the refusal to accept recognized authorities and the conviction of certain posters that they know better. I doubt there are going to be jury members insisting there's a third suspect.



I've seen you say this many times but it doesn't matter if the evidence is more damning to one than the other. In cases where there is more than one accused, it they all planned and committed a murder, they're all guilty. One doesn't get off because s/he is a marginally less despicable person than the other co-accused.




Being a juror is our responsibility as citizens. No one is taking it lightly. There is nothing morally or ethically superior about having a hard time making decisions. There is no reason to think that taking a long time to decide leads to a better decision. You seem to be suggesting that people who have come to a conclusion are taking it more "lightly" than you are.

There is also the fact that these discussion sites have people joining at any point in time, not being aware of previous evidence as well as people who only read the occasional page making up a theory based on limited information. People seem to think it's okay to form your own definition of terms such as reasonable. I hope there is a skill testing question to potential jurors such as "what is reason". I can't figure out why we need amateur, part-time judges deciding people's fate?

 

[ABro]

There is also the fact that these discussion sites have people joining at any point in time, not being aware of previous evidence as well as people who only read the occasional page making up a theory based on limited information. People seem to think it's okay to form your own definition of terms such as reasonable. I hope there is a skill testing question to potential jurors such as "what is reason". I can't figure out why we need amateur, part-time judges deciding people's fate?

The benefits of juries http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/feb/21/juries-work-best-research

 

[Miranda16]

No it wouldn't have been. AJ's call to crime stoppers would have eventually been traced back to him and he would have sung like a canary when they showed up at his front door. Failing that, as soon as a crime stoppers reward was offered, one of Millards minions would have eventually ratted him out.

Can they actually trace the Crimestoppers call? I thought they guarantee anonymity. I'd like to think that eventually AJ would call police, though.
How do the awards work? Do you have to ID yourself?

 

[RandomName479]

There is also the fact that these discussion sites have people joining at any point in time, not being aware of previous evidence as well as people who only read the occasional page making up a theory based on limited information. People seem to think it's okay to form your own definition of terms such as reasonable. I hope there is a skill testing question to potential jurors such as "what is reason". I can't figure out why we need amateur, part-time judges deciding people's fate?

BBM......

I take offense to this. I respect everyone's position and I know many of the posters who are struggling with the guilt are highly educated and smart people. The fact that they are giving weight to different evidence than you does not make them stupid. MOO

 

[CJPRINCESS]

Thank you for answering that.

If we believe MS, he said they were going to test drive the truck, go back & steal it. Without the transponder key, how did they expect to do that?

They left prints on IT's truck & showed their faces to him when they test-drove his truck. Was the plan to steal his truck as well, so those things didn't matter...was it planned that he would be another fatality?

$15K for the Eliminator, additional $$ to modify it to attach to a trailer...for a $24K truck?

(I'm sorry in advance as I'm sure these questions have been asked and answered. I wasn't able to follow the thread on WS as much as I wanted to )

Thats the thing. At least DM knew that the truck needed the key. He owned a Ram (gasser engine) So he knew! Whether he shared that with MS is another question.

As for Igor, he was a big fella with Army background. Igor's truck had a GPS's tracking unit as well. So either fear of Igor or the GPS's (or both) would have made DM and MS back down off of that "mission".

 

[Errrr]

Without Igor and the tattoo, the only thing I see they could have done is cell tower dumps from Ancaster and the Igor test drive area. Look for the common numbers, which would likely have led them eventually to Millard and Smich, but it would have taken way longer and a lot of the evidence would have been gone.

So many of the friends and associates lied to police that I see no reason to believe they would have eventually come forward.

As soon as AJ was fired for calling crime stoppers he called the police for real.

 

[mimimic]

You know...I keep thinking about this incinerator. I think the vast majority of us do not believe it was intended to be used in the way DM's lawyers presented it (animal incineration business.) I don't think even DM is daft enough to believe that a homemade incinerator put together by SS would be passable for use in a veterinarian business model either. So that leaves us with the true intent of his purchase being to dispose of bodies. We know poor Tim met that fate and the hunch many have is that LB may have met the same. Think about this...had DM and MS gotten away with this one, how many more would have followed? Who amongst us are the lucky ones that didn't meet this fate as a result of them being caught? Is there a boat owner out there that may have met the same fate? What did DM want next? Another truck? Trailer? Once they proved to themselves that the disposal plan was infallible...who knows if they would have stopped. MOO and general ramblings for a Thursday morning.

That white van.
They were just getting set up.

 

[RandomName479]

As soon as AJ was fired for calling crime stoppers he called the police for real.

AFTER the police showed up at the hangar.....he knew they were onto DM......had the police not shown up at the hangar who knows if he would have come forward.....MOO