Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #16

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Claroon said:
I think the poster is pointing out MS's character and ability to attempt to cover his tracks.
Click to expand...

Exactly, we can prove that a lot of what Smich said was a lie, so it really should be disregarded completely, including his story of being in a different truck when the shooting occurred. If that were the truth, there would be absolutely no need to lie about anything else, would there?
 
Mscree said:
Still it was said to be used for two things garbage disposal or pet cremation whatever lie you choose to believe however they did odd jobs like painting and clean up nothing to do with garbage removal. Not sure why it was stored in the barn in kept secret from people coming to the hanger if it was used for garbage? Regardless am wasn't involved in this crime it was the two of them they new the plan otherwise why look for the generator? Why the change of vehicles? They knew what they were up to. Both of them the gun wasn't a photo prop it was meant to be used that's why they had bullets
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What's important is not whether it was used for garbage, but what people like SS and MS believed it was going to be used for when they had involvement in research and, where applicable, building. Both MS and SS testified 'garbage', and it's not wholly unsupported by MS's texts surrounding the research. He's referencing waste management terms and talking about energy recovery which is typically only meaningful for ongoing operations. Surely they wouldn't be burning so many illicit bodies that energy recovery would be a meaningful feature? At the very least it's ambiguous.
 
And btw, if your pal had just blown a guy's head off for no reason and then told you to follow him to his deserted farm (and lock the gate behind you), would you? Not bloody likely!
 
Mscree said:
Still it was said to be used for two things garbage disposal or pet cremation whatever lie you choose to believe however they did odd jobs like painting and clean up nothing to do with garbage removal. Not sure why it was stored in the barn in kept secret from people coming to the hanger if it was used for garbage? Regardless am wasn't involved in this crime it was the two of them they new the plan otherwise why look for the generator? Why the change of vehicles? They knew what they were up to. Both of them the gun wasn't a photo prop it was meant to be used that's why they had bullets
Click to expand...

It's speculation to assume what "jobs" MS was made to do. AJ testified he was working at the hanger doing nothing hanger related and didn't ask questions. MM cleaned toilets. SS was his lackie, built a generator. Showed him some mechanic stuff.

I don't see where there is evidence that MS looked for the generator? That was DM and SS text. I don't see evidence that MS was involved in the vehicle swap beforehand. That was Javier and DM.

Again, I see DM all over it. I see no actual proof MS. A few texts that can be taken out of context and some online searches that others did as well. Moo
 
JuneBug67 said:
What's important is not whether it was used for garbage, but what people like SS and MS believed it was going to be used for when they had involvement in research and, where applicable, building. Both MS and SS testified 'garbage', and it's not wholly unsupported by MS's texts surrounding the research. He's referencing waste management terms and talking about energy recovery which is typically only meaningful for ongoing operations. Surely they wouldn't be burning so many illicit bodies that energy recovery would be a meaningful feature? At the very least it's ambiguous.
Click to expand...

I think Smich was trying to simply find a second hand incinerator and came across the one with the energy recovery. They were likely on the prowl for one they could steal.
 
Wow, it is finally concluded (well closing arguments left). I followed this pretty closely but I am still wondering why no one seemed to discuss what happened to Tim Bosma? There was no talk about the clean up process (sorry, not to sound disrespectful and to be honest that felt very icky to type). Did I miss something? any theories on that? Could the hoses (which also wasn't really explained) have something to do with it? Any theories on why they avoid any discussion on this?
 
Leaving premeditation aside (although, IMO, there is overwhelming evidence proving both defendants guilty of that beyond a reasonable doubt), is there anyone who can honestly say that Tim was ever free to leave that vehicle when he left with DM and MS that night?

It is a fact that DM and MS had at least one loaded gun in their possession. Whether to steal a truck and/or murder, both criminal actions, it is so obvious that they never intended to let Tim go ... He was without a doubt forcibly confined.

I am sure that there are many people who will be able to express this much better than I am able to do.

MOO


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andreww said:
Not sure what you ar getting at here? Were other people aware of what was going to happen? Maybe (probably IMO). Did anybody besides Smich actually accompany Millard? Absolutely not. You cannot get around the fact that Smich knew exactly what was going to happen, his BBQ, fireworks and sausage texts are proof of that. Millard said he was going to steal either the "nice guy" or the "a$$hole's" truck. Well IT still has his truck so Smich must have known that this was going to happen that night. Did all there planning include burglary tools like a slim jim to unlock the truck? Did they enquire about an alarm system on the vehicle? No, because they were always going to just drive that truck away. There is nothing in any of the planning to suggest anything different. Yet there is plenty of evidence that both Smich and Millard discussed preparing the BBQ at the farm. What do you think that means? MM begs Smich not to go on this particular "mission", why? Nearly all the witnesses lied to cover their own asses but the story is still quite clear if you read between the lines.
Click to expand...

What I'm getting at is, I don't see proof of MS' knowledge this murder was going to occur, I don't see proof of forcible confinement by MS.
By what I'm reading, because he accompanied Millard on this "mission" that makes him guilty of first degree murder? I don't agree.

The BBQ, fireworks and sausage texts would've been heavily focused on by the crown if that was the key evidence. It was glazed over IMO
As I stated, anyone can take texts out of context. Fireworks tonight! I would interpret that to mean, "IT'S SHOW TIME!", as in, we're stealing a truck.
Not sure why that's a big deal? We all know the theft was a part of the plan.

The rest of your statement is pure speculation, not evidence.
Tools like slim jims to unlock the truck? People smash windows every day to steal a car.
I could sit here and have an explanation for everything people have posted, but I would be speculating as much as everyone else.

Why didn't anyone ask MM why she "BEGGED" MS not to go on this mission?? Everyone seems to focus on that so heavily.
I don't know why, maybe she thought DM was a creep. Maybe she didn't want MS around DM. Maybe she wanted MS to change his ways.
They were in love. She sent her sister a picture of them at a wedding saying "We're next" (to get married)
I dont know the real reason why. Why wasn't she asked this very question in court?? If she was, I don't recall her answer.
 
Claroon said:
The tweet by AC said, "Shane's starting on the white van for search and capture missions."

I wondered when MS blurted out that DM had plans to use the truck for other things, which he didn't know if he was allowed to mention in court, if the truck would also be a kidnapping vehicle. IMO
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The white van that Javier had a lot of the time? Was he going to be framed by swapping the vehicles?? Thankfully he was caught when he was if this is in fact true.
Again, here's good old Shane, "just doing his job". Sick
 
Fraser says the two had each other's backs. "That's how it was at the time sir," Smich says.
by Adam Carter 10:55 AM

Now March 20, 2012 from Millard to Smich. "I've seen sooo many opportunities for little jobs that would balance out the flor of cash cigarettes and booze, so that big missions you could get way bigger [payoffs]."
by Adam Carter 10:57 AM

Now March 24, 2012 from Millard to Smich. "I think we can grab that truck I need before I go to the states next. They are common enough, it doesn't have to be that one, it just has to be a Dodge 3500." Smich responds they need a "proper plan" and "can't make any mistakes."
by Adam Carter 10:59 AM
 
Claroon said:
The tweet by AC said, "Shane's starting on the white van for search and capture missions."

I wondered when MS blurted out that DM had plans to use the truck for other things, which he didn't know if he was allowed to mention in court, if the truck would also be a kidnapping vehicle. IMO
Click to expand...

Well the sex trade would bring him in $100,000 or more.
MOO
 
canadiangirl said:
It's speculation to assume what "jobs" MS was made to do. AJ testified he was working at the hanger doing nothing hanger related and didn't ask questions. MM cleaned toilets. SS was his lackie, built a generator. Showed him some mechanic stuff.

I don't see where there is evidence that MS looked for the generator? That was DM and SS text. I don't see evidence that MS was involved in the vehicle swap beforehand. That was Javier and DM.

Again, I see DM all over it. I see no actual proof MS. A few texts that can be taken out of context

and some online searches that others did as well. Moo
Click to expand...


BBM

But given all the other evidence of their complicit behaviour before, during and after, don't those texts in context take on a clear and probable meaning?



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raffielle said:
Wow, it is finally concluded (well closing arguments left). I followed this pretty closely but I am still wondering why no one seemed to discuss what happened to Tim Bosma? There was no talk about the clean up process (sorry, not to sound disrespectful and to be honest that felt very icky to type). Did I miss something? any theories on that? Could the hoses (which also wasn't really explained) have something to do with it? Any theories on why they avoid any discussion on this?
Click to expand...

IMO, that is stuff CN was involved in along side of DM. If DM HAD testified, the hose and Incinerator cleaning would have been brought forth. I think we'll be hearing all about these things when CN takes the stand in November.
 
andreww said:
I think Smich was trying to simply find a second hand incinerator and came across the one with the energy recovery. They were likely on the prowl for one they could steal.
Click to expand...

Anything is possible. Generally speaking though, the larger point is that the Crown's put forth this evidence as proof that these two were carefully plotting a random crime of theft, murder and the destruction of a body and as soon as each element was in place...they promptly waited 10 months. It's a story, and a weak one at that. We hold weak stories against witnesses and the accused and draw inferences from the fact that they've told, and the Crown should not be excepted from that same rational assessment.
 
canadiangirl said:
What I'm getting at is, I don't see proof of MS' knowledge this murder was going to occur, I don't see proof of forcible confinement by MS.
By what I'm reading, because he accompanied Millard on this "mission" that makes him guilty of first degree murder? I don't agree.

The BBQ, fireworks and sausage texts would've been heavily focused on by the crown if that was the key evidence. It was glazed over IMO
As I stated, anyone can take texts out of context. Fireworks tonight! I would interpret that to mean, "IT'S SHOW TIME!", as in, we're stealing a truck.
Not sure why that's a big deal? We all know the theft was a part of the plan.

The rest of your statement is pure speculation, not evidence.
Tools like slim jims to unlock the truck? People smash windows every day to steal a car.
I could sit here and have an explanation for everything people have posted, but I would be speculating as much as everyone else.

Why didn't anyone ask MM why she "BEGGED" MS not to go on this mission?? Everyone seems to focus on that so heavily.
I don't know why, maybe she thought DM was a creep. Maybe she didn't want MS around DM. Maybe she wanted MS to change his ways.
They were in love. She sent her sister a picture of them at a wedding saying "We're next" (to get married)
I dont know the real reason why. Why wasn't she asked this very question in court?? If she was, I don't recall her answer.
Click to expand...

Individual details can be given many different meanings, but, in their totality, what is most probable?


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canadiangirl said:
What I'm getting at is, I don't see proof of MS' knowledge this murder was going to occur, I don't see proof of forcible confinement by MS.
By what I'm reading, because he accompanied Millard on this "mission" that makes him guilty of first degree murder? I don't agree.

The BBQ, fireworks and sausage texts would've been heavily focused on by the crown if that was the key evidence. It was glazed over IMO
As I stated, anyone can take texts out of context. Fireworks tonight! I would interpret that to mean, "IT'S SHOW TIME!", as in, we're stealing a truck.
Not sure why that's a big deal? We all know the theft was a part of the plan.

The rest of your statement is pure speculation, not evidence.
Tools like slim jims to unlock the truck? People smash windows every day to steal a car.
I could sit here and have an explanation for everything people have posted, but I would be speculating as much as everyone else.

Why didn't anyone ask MM why she "BEGGED" MS not to go on this mission?? Everyone seems to focus on that so heavily.
I don't know why, maybe she thought DM was a creep. Maybe she didn't want MS around DM. Maybe she wanted MS to change his ways.
They were in love. She sent her sister a picture of them at a wedding saying "We're next" (to get married)
I dont know the real reason why. Why wasn't she asked this very question in court?? If she was, I don't recall her answer.
Click to expand...

You can explain away anything you want with "maybe this or that happened", but the fact is they were specifically discussing the truck mission when Smich sent the sausage and fireside furniture pictures. There was no response from millard to the effect of "what the heck is that supposed to mean?". Then coincidentally TB ends up in their "BBQ". As to the slim jim, Millard is buying all the tools, windshield removal tool, walkie talkies, change of clothes, but he won't buy the cheap tool that saves him from smashing a window in the middle of the night? Come on.
 
MrsThreadgoode said:
BBM

But given all the other evidence of their complicit behaviour before, during and after, don't those texts in context take on a clear and probable meaning?



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Click to expand...

I'm focusing on before. The first degree murder charge is based upon premeditation and forcible confinement. During and after isn't the sticking point for me.
 
canadiangirl said:
What I'm getting at is, I don't see proof of MS' knowledge this murder was going to occur, I don't see proof of forcible confinement by MS.
By what I'm reading, because he accompanied Millard on this "mission" that makes him guilty of first degree murder? I don't agree.

The BBQ, fireworks and sausage texts would've been heavily focused on by the crown if that was the key evidence. It was glazed over IMO
As I stated, anyone can take texts out of context. Fireworks tonight! I would interpret that to mean, "IT'S SHOW TIME!", as in, we're stealing a truck.
Not sure why that's a big deal? We all know the theft was a part of the plan.

The rest of your statement is pure speculation, not evidence.
Tools like slim jims to unlock the truck? People smash windows every day to steal a car.
I could sit here and have an explanation for everything people have posted, but I would be speculating as much as everyone else.

Why didn't anyone ask MM why she "BEGGED" MS not to go on this mission?? Everyone seems to focus on that so heavily.
I don't know why, maybe she thought DM was a creep. Maybe she didn't want MS around DM. Maybe she wanted MS to change his ways.
They were in love. She sent her sister a picture of them at a wedding saying "We're next" (to get married)
I dont know the real reason why. Why wasn't she asked this very question in court?? If she was, I don't recall her answer.
Click to expand...

I am curious to know what you would personally accept as proof of premeditation and/or forcible confinement?


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