Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #18

[jbelle]

I'm almost caught up so I will give my point of view.
I don't see any reasonable doubt for Smitch and would have ZERO problem with giving him first degree.

Sure, there were some ambiguous texts, so I will leave those out, same as the rap music, I actually like some rap myself, but there were plenty of texts that were clear as day.

1. They discussed the "mobile" incinerators together.
2. They checked on the BBQ situation in Waterloo together.
3. They discussed guns and ammo together.
4. They looked at trucks online together.
5. They went on the test drive with Igor together. (And why did they BOTH call that mission a failure? They went, they "scoped", why would they call it a fail? Maybe because it wasn't just supposed a scope?)
6. They hid the Yukon together.
7. They walked up the Bosma's drive together.
8. They went on the test drive with Tim together.

9. They pulled over to the Super Sucker together.
10. They drove to the farm together.
11. They dragged the incinerator from the farm to the hanger together.
12 When Mr. Bosma was incinerated they were together.
13. They stripped and washed the car together.
14. They burnt the seats together.

After all this they were still Bro's! I left the gap on my list between #8 and #9 because it doesn't matter a lick to me exactly what went down during those minutes with all the rest that I DO KNOW.

The judge said to use common sense and reason so I'll ask everyone this. If you are a criminal, with a criminal friend, and that friend says "we take what we want from the source" and he's talking about upping the stakes of the missions to reap greater rewards, and then said friend obtains a tricked out white kidnappy van, and incinerator, a wood chipper, guns, and ammo, are you going to be all "well, what could POSSIBLY go wrong here?" But Smitch didn't know what would go on? My *advertiser censored**

And who paid for the incinerator has no bearing either. DM LOVED power imbalances in his relationships and you know Mr Greedy would have just used the fact that he paid for it as an excuse to take a bigger chunk of the spoils of their crimes.
Thick as thieves indeed!


*I'm editing to add that any snark in my post is geared towards the story of the accused and NOT towards anyone who does see reasonable doubt for Mr. Smitch, this is a crazy case and I've enjoyed reading posts on both sides, changed my mind a
couple times myself. I wanted to believe Smitch, wanted to see SOME humanity in one of the two accused, but the evidence and the story Smitch told just don't jive for me. I can't in good conscience say that DM is guilty and MS isn't when I really
don't see much of a difference in them, except Smitch seems a whole lot brighter than DM.

 

[jbelle]

Perhaps MS didn't want to tell MM he was going on an all night mission because it would have caused a fight or argument. Some men are notorious for lying to their women like that because they like to come and go as they please. And if you recall, these two were inseparable and MS didn't seem to approve later in their relationship by telling MM she needed to get a job. MS wanted his freedom and not a ball and chain. Was she worried sick or upset because she may have ran out of weed and needed a fix from her supplier boyfriend? We'll never know. MOO.

Exactly. I think we all can agree that DM definitely had a partner who was just fine with all this. I don't think MS would have been able to share his deeds with MM in the same way.

 

[mimimic]

Imo, there are only a small handful of people here in this conversation who openly concede there may not be enough proof beyond a reasonable doubt to convict MS of first degree murder, so I'm not sure how it can be said there is a constant barrage of proSmich sentiments; I think the 'proSmich' faction gets questioned over and over and they are simply responding with their answers. moo

Where do you get the information to make the statement: "But it was not May 7 or 8 as some have suggested." Is that a fact somewhere, or is that your opinion?

Why is it ruled out that this waiting for weed didn't happen the morning of May 7th? That would certainly explain MM's forcefulness in telling him to get out of there.

from MH's tweets:

Around the time of May 6, 2013, Dungey suggests, things change. Daly agrees. #Bosma Apr 06, 2016

Going back to that time again when he was waiting outside Smich's house for weed. Dell drops him off he runs straight inside. #Bosma Apr 06, 2016

"He was fearful," Dungey suggests. Yup, Daly says. He sees him the next day at his house. Starts talking about being afraid. #Bosma Apr 06, 2016

"That's when his paranoia sets in," Dungey says--from moment he left Dellen Millard's car. Daly agrees. #Bosma Apr 06, 2016

Daly had met DM 4 or 5 times prior to May 6. Always briefly. Would see him at Mark's place. #Bosma Apr 06, 2016

"He seemed for lack of a better word, sketchy. He wore sunglasses when it was dark out. Just his behaviour, mannerisms," Daly says of DM. Apr 06, 2016

Smich on the other hand, Dungey suggests, was friendly and easy to get along with. Daly agrees. #Bosma Apr 06, 2016

Way behind here. I don't recall them getting fearful on the 7th or 8th, that just seems too early in the week. What day did he want to chill with DM?

 

[mimimic]

My biggest problem from the onset of finding MS guilty of First degree is "reasonable doubt" on pre-meditation. When looking at the "totality" of the evidence how is it possible to say with certainty that MS knew and planned the purpose of the incinerator was to eliminate bodies when other people had the same if not more knowledge of it and did not even warrant an AATF? The same holds true with the "theft" of the truck, several people were in on the planning and all of them knew DM owned a gun (guns) yet didn't suspect him of a murder as this was never a part of any prior "Missions", Why would this mission be any different then any others?

I wonder if hypothetically, MS had tacked on redrum at the end of his fireworks text to his bro DM, would it sway anyone who has this reasonable doubt about MS involvement towards guilt of pre-meditation? Or would that code message be taken to mean an actual drink, wanted in celebration of fireworks and they miss-spelled and forgot the space? I want to believe him too, but just can't give him that much credit. I understand you/(not just you, DMB) likely don't want hypothetical's here, but I can't see why we would go easy on him at all. Because he is young, baby faced, what? I think it is because we all want it to be true - someone would never plan to do this to someone. !

 

[andreww]

I agree, they planned as well as their uneducated minds would let them. They thought they were above the law. They'd gotten away with so much already, they thought this would be easy. I think they didn't move the incinerator earlier because it would have aroused suspicions with his workers. The plan was to fetch it at night when all workers would be gone.

No, the plan was never to go to the hangar. The plan was to go to the farm and incinerate the body, thus the need for the generator. The fact that TB bled so much necessitated the move to the hangar for an immediate cleanup.


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[robynhood]

....so from what I have read the Judge has 2 more days of instructions to the jury( today Mon . June 13 and tomorrow June 14 than they are off to decide on a verdict....I hope I am correct?....thanks Robynhood...I like to see a conclusion and IMO Guilty guilty guilty and than ...curious When does CN ( dellen's) GF ..go to court for aiding Millard in a crime?....thanks to anyone who is kind enough to answer...thanks again Robynhood.

 

[robynhood]

Oh ya>>>>>>> One more question when are they due in court today...? I know the clock here is different than TO tIme....like 2 hours behind Toronto time too....thanks again Robynhood

 

[deugirtni]

No, the plan was never to go to the hangar. The plan was to go to the farm and incinerate the body, thus the need for the generator. The fact that TB bled so much necessitated the move to the hangar for an immediate cleanup.

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What reasonable explanation would there be for them to NOT consider the blood, if the intent was to shoot TB? A bloodless shooting/murder?

 

[deugirtni]

Oh ya>>>>>>> One more question when are they due in court today...? I know the clock here is different than TO tIme....like 2 hours behind Toronto time too....thanks again Robynhood

I read they are due back this morning at 9:30am EST

 

[deugirtni]

....so from what I have read the Judge has 2 more days of instructions to the jury( today Mon . June 13 and tomorrow June 14 than they are off to decide on a verdict....I hope I am correct?....thanks Robynhood...I like to see a conclusion and IMO Guilty guilty guilty and than ...curious When does CN ( dellen's) GF ..go to court for aiding Millard in a crime?....thanks to anyone who is kind enough to answer...thanks again Robynhood.

Where did you see there is an expectation of 2 'more' days of jury instruction? Just curious? FWIK it has only been said there are to be 2 days of instruction, Friday and today, after which time the jury will be sequestered until they reach their verdicts. I was fully expecting that to happen today at some point. Did I miss something?

 

[deugirtni]

No, the plan was never to go to the hangar. The plan was to go to the farm and incinerate the body, thus the need for the generator. The fact that TB bled so much necessitated the move to the hangar for an immediate cleanup.

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Something else just occurred to me in relation to this. If the plan was to use the incinerator after the premeditated murder, whether the incinerator was to be used at the farm or the hangar, why was it still in the barn? Why waste precious time after you've just stolen a truck and killed a man, and soon it will be reported to police, in getting it out of the barn? Why wouldn't they have already had it at the ready, just waiting for it to be loaded and ignited, out in the field, or wherever they were planning on operating the incinerator? Or alternately, why not waiting outside the barn, waiting to be hooked up to the Yukon for transport to the hangar, fences unlatched, anything to save on precious time after the fact?

 

[CJPRINCESS]

....so from what I have read the Judge has 2 more days of instructions to the jury( today Mon . June 13 and tomorrow June 14 than they are off to decide on a verdict....I hope I am correct?....thanks Robynhood...I like to see a conclusion and IMO Guilty guilty guilty and than ...curious When does CN ( dellen's) GF ..go to court for aiding Millard in a crime?....thanks to anyone who is kind enough to answer...thanks again Robynhood.

CN'S trial starts in November (2016) but I'm not sure on the exact date. It was mentioned during this trial of month only.

 

[andreww]

What reasonable explanation would there be for them to NOT consider the blood, if the intent was to shoot TB? A bloodless shooting/murder?

Maybe experience?

 

[andreww]

Something else just occurred to me in relation to this. If the plan was to use the incinerator after the premeditated murder, whether the incinerator was to be used at the farm or the hangar, why was it still in the barn? Why waste precious time after you've just stolen a truck and killed a man, and soon it will be reported to police, in getting it out of the barn? Why wouldn't they have already had it at the ready, just waiting for it to be loaded and ignited, out in the field, or wherever they were planning on operating the incinerator? Or alternately, why not waiting outside the barn, waiting to be hooked up to the Yukon for transport to the hangar, fences unlatched, anything to save on precious time after the fact?

Who knows? It is possible that it could operate inside the barn if the doors were big and open I guess. But there was no pressure once they were at the farm anyway. Dark, rural, locked gate, once there they were home free.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

Something else just occurred to me in relation to this. If the plan was to use the incinerator after the premeditated murder, whether the incinerator was to be used at the farm or the hangar, why was it still in the barn? Why waste precious time after you've just stolen a truck and killed a man, and soon it will be reported to police, in getting it out of the barn? Why wouldn't they have already had it at the ready, just waiting for it to be loaded and ignited, out in the field, or wherever they were planning on operating the incinerator? Or alternately, why not waiting outside the barn, waiting to be hooked up to the Yukon for transport to the hangar, fences unlatched, anything to save on precious time after the fact?

DM had his employees clean hay out of the barn to reduce fire hazzards. Which was weird to me being old hay and less chance of heat combustion unless sparked by a source. I'm wondering if they didn't do a good enough job (removing hay) and DM decided to NOT use the incinerator in the barn. The generator was in the barn and without a functional bobcat or forklift, he wouldn't have been able to put the generator onto the incinerator trailer. Those things are heavy! We have a small one that's about 180-200lbs and a medium one that's over 250 lbs.

I'm wondering if the were trying to figure out how to use the incinerator at the farm while they where there for almost an hour. Generator couldn't be moved outside, so they hitched it up to the Yukon and moved to the hanger. IMO, I don't think they intended to use the hanger at all. I'd think they would have disabled all the cameras beforehand. I don't think they intended to shoot TB in the truck, so that made them move their mission over to the hanger as well, for light to strip and clean the truck.

 

[Inspector_North]

DM had his employees clean hay out of the barn to reduce fire hazzards. Which was weird to me being old hay and less chance of heat combustion unless sparked by a source. I'm wondering if they didn't do a good enough job (removing hay) and DM decided to NOT use the incinerator in the barn. The generator was in the barn and without a functional bobcat or forklift, he wouldn't have been able to put the generator onto the incinerator trailer. Those things are heavy! We have a small one that's about 180-200lbs and a medium one that's over 250 lbs.

I'm wondering if the were trying to figure out how to use the incinerator at the farm while they where there for almost an hour. Generator couldn't be moved outside, so they hitched it up to the Yukon and moved to the hanger. IMO, I don't think they intended to use the hanger at all. I'd think they would have disabled all the cameras beforehand. I don't think they intended to shoot TB in the truck, so that made them move their mission over to the hanger as well, for light to strip and clean the truck.

IMO, they didn't know exactly when they would need the incinerator. It depended on the outcome of the test drive. They didn't need it for IT, and leaving it in the barn is not unusual considering it could be susceptible to weather elements since the unit had electrical parts.

Not sure why the leaving it in the barn is being questioned, when the bigger question is why was so much effort was made to make it portable. So portable, that all you needed to do was hook up a go...... and they did.

MOO

 

[CJPRINCESS]

IMO, they didn't know exactly when they would need the incinerator. It depended on the outcome of the test drive. They didn't need it for IT, and leaving it in the barn is not unusual considering it could be susceptible to weather elements since the unit had electrical parts.


Not sure why the leaving it in the barn is being questioned, when the bigger question is why was so much effort was made to make it portable. So portable, that all you needed to do was hook up a go...... and they did.

MOO

I don't think the elements would damage the unit. I'm sure the components would be sealed/Weather proof. These things are usually stationary outside. Do the chicken farmers that have these drag them in and out of barn to use them?

ETA: there was a picture circulating of an Eliminator unit at the Manitoba distributor where the unit was outside. If electrical components would be damaged by elements, would the distributor leave it outside? Display unit or not, they'd need it functional to show people (on site) how it works.

And who's questioning "why it's left in the barn"? We are all aware that DM wanted it mobile for his own convenience.

 

[Typhoo1961]

....so from what I have read the Judge has 2 more days of instructions to the jury( today Mon . June 13 and tomorrow June 14 than they are off to decide on a verdict....I hope I am correct?

Justice Andrew Goodman is expected to deliver his final remarks to jurors today in the Tim Bosma trial, guiding them on the legal principles they must consider in deciding the fate of the two men accused of murdering the Hamilton man in 2013.
Goodman began his final instructions to the jury on Friday in Ontario Superior Court in Hamilton. The jury will go to deliberations after he concludes them on Monday.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/bosma-justice-charge-jury-day2-1.3632323

 

[Coldpizza]

:smile: Good morning. Trial thread is open for posting.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...er-Trial-06-13-16-Day-60-Charge-to-jury-Day-2

AC tweets accounted for so if anyone can post general tweets that would be great. :cupcake:

 

[Coldpizza]

Jury now being called in.
by Adam Carter 9:33 AM

closing in 5 minutes