Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #6

[brightii]

I dunno. Every way I count it, he had millions, and even if every financial disaster possible hit him, he'd still have millions. He might have had cashflow problems where it was temporarily difficult for him to access money, but there's no denying that he's stinking rich.

I think the hangar had become a hangout/clubhouse for his buddies.



But have you ever been on the receiving end of really bad life guidance from your parents? Rushed into a marriage you regretted? Forced to work in your father's shadow, after your father's interests? Not everyone welcomes parental control (a.k.a. guidance) in the same way. Some rebel, and that's fair: left to go their way they can excel in another field. I feel if parental control is too rigid, some kids will fight against everything. DM described himself as "an extension of another life", but did he want a life enmeshed with his father's or did he want his own life of his own? His heavy-drinking father held $12 million over his head. I'm actually quite compassionate towards DM over his forced identity as a cloned Millard.



I think DM was so successful in his first two murders that he planned to kill the third time.



I think ironically it is the rigidity in the family, where DM had to be like WM who had to be like CM, that caused all the problems. DM wasn't allowed to have his own identity as the car guy in the family - he had to be in aviation, and to force that point WM threw a fortune at the hangar project.

DM may have been worth a lot of money on paper, but he would have had to repay a hefty 3.7 (or 3.8 why quibble lol) loan that was attached to the MRO and hangar reno, and in my opinion, just before as well as after WM's death DM may have had a rude awakening about the real financial state of affairs and the picture may not have been so rosy, IMO. Didn't he say to AS that MA's coffers were running low? Also, cash flow or access to credit is what he would have needed to buy TB's (or any) truck and I'm not sure it has been established by the evidence that he was in this position. After LW testified it left me wondering about it all.

As far as why DM turned out to be capable of murder is probably going to stay a mystery that just leads to speculation, as how can we ever know the mind of a killer, especially one who doesn't talk about his motivations? WM was also rumored to have seen himself as a rebel of sorts, so it's not surprising his son would mirror that role, but perhaps WM came to realize that in his later years his own youthful rebellion didn't bring him happiness so he tried to get his son to live a life with more responsibility? I agree that a young man needs to etch out his own path in life, but DM in so many ways seems to have remained a youth long after adulthood, IMO, and he chose for himself a life that included great risk as demonstrated to me in his choices of associates and activities.

It is sad that DM's life is what it is, but it is even sadder that his decisions, if guilty, tragically impacted the lives of so many more in his midst, IMO.

All MOO.

 

[Claroon]

I think ironically it is the rigidity in the family, where DM had to be like WM who had to be like CM, that caused all the problems. DM wasn't allowed to have his own identity as the car guy in the family - he had to be in aviation, and to force that point WM threw a fortune at the hangar project.

"Always blaming the parents" isn't something I agree with. I feel, in my opinion, there may have been some mental health issue which may have made him an unruly child. Did he not bop around in schools and looking for a career? Maybe 'immature child" syndrome, maybe something deeper. I know some parents are bad, but I don't think it's fair to assume his parents made him the way he is. Of course, I didn't know either of the parents and if WM was a heavy drinker maybe he was abusive, but I won't speculate. I do feel he was used to expensive trips, equipment, etc. All of that costs money too, and it's easy to go into debt fast when you have no self-discipline. IMO.

 

[SnooperDuper]

DM may have been worth a lot of money on paper, but he would have had to repay a hefty 3.7 (pr 3.8 why quibble lol) loan that was attached to the MRO and hangar reno, and in my opinion, just before as well as after WM's death DM may have had a rude awakening about the real financial state of affairs and the picture may not have been so rosy, IMO. Didn't he say to AS that MA's coffers were running low? Also, cash flow or access to credit is what he would have needed to buy TB's (or any) truck and I'm not sure it has been established by the evidence that he was in this position. After LW testified it left me wondering about it all.

DM was worth at least $12M so a $4M loan could be covered. WM's estate may not have been settled and that could have tied up some money. I just think that there's so much money that he'd always have enough to buy that truck.

As far as why DM turned out to be capable of murder is probably going to stay a mystery that just leads to speculation, as how can we ever know the mind of a killer, especially one who doesn't talk about his motivations? WM was also rumored to have seen himself as a rebel of sorts, so it's not surprising his son would mirror that role, but perhaps WM came to realize that in his later years his own youthful rebellion didn't bring him happiness so he tried to get his son to live a life with more responsibility? I agree that a young man needs to etch out his own path in life, but DM in so many ways seems to have remained a youth long after adulthood, IMO, and he chose for himself a life that included great risk as demonstrated to me in his choices of associates and activities.

It is sad that DM's life is what it is, but it is even sadder that his decisions, if guilty, tragically impacted the lives of so many more in his midst, IMO.

All MOO.

Well, WM's reported drinking is a concern in my mind because drinking takes hours of time for relaxation (and, if you drink long enough, stupidity) and that's a large investment in time in an activity that's not so meritorious. In my mind, a drinking parent always does the bare minimum outside of the time devoted to their habit, and indulges in their habit to live in their own happy world. I wonder if DM picked up any heavy-daydreamer genes from WM. I don't think if you are drinking heavily that you should be running a company or directing anyone else's life.

WM tried to build DM in his image, another aviation heir working in the industry. But part of WM's image, to DM, must have been the drinking. There's no way as a kid that you can't be bitter about that. Every kid thinks their parents suck but having parents with big problems actually does suck.

I can see a ton of motive in the WM case.

 

[SnooperDuper]

"Always blaming the parents" isn't something I agree with. I feel, in my opinion, there may have been some mental health issue which may have made him an unruly child. Did he not bop around in schools and looking for a career? Maybe 'immature child" syndrome, maybe something deeper. I know some parents are bad, but I don't think it's fair to assume his parents made him the way he is. Of course, I didn't know either of the parents and if WM was a heavy drinker maybe he was abusive, but I won't speculate. I do feel he was used to expensive trips, equipment, etc. All of that costs money too, and it's easy to go into debt fast when you have no self-discipline. IMO.

Well I think what WM and DM were, was different. If WM and DM were similar in nature, DM would have excitedly followed WM into the MRO business (and likely had several other aviation ventures under his belt, too.)

I keep thinking back to that quote from DM "You're an extension of another life"...I think that was the fundamental problem. DM was still living with his dad in his late 20's, they were working together...they were totally enmeshed together like symbionts. But WM was a guy with issues, because he drank. I imagine DM would have wanted to peel out of that situation but was somehow held back.

IMO.

 

[brightii]

DM was worth at least $12M so a $4M loan could be covered. WM's estate may not have been settled and that could have tied up some money. I just think that there's so much money that he'd always have enough to buy that truck.



Well, WM's reported drinking is a concern in my mind because drinking takes hours of time for relaxation (and, if you drink long enough, stupidity) and that's a large investment in time in an activity that's not so meritorious. In my mind, a drinking parent always does the bare minimum outside of the time devoted to their habit, and indulges in their habit to live in their own happy world. I wonder if DM picked up any heavy-daydreamer genes from WM. I don't think if you are drinking heavily that you should be running a company or directing anyone else's life.

WM tried to build DM in his image, another aviation heir working in the industry. But part of WM's image, to DM, must have been the drinking. There's no way as a kid that you can't be bitter about that. Every kid thinks their parents suck but having parents with big problems actually does suck.

I can see a ton of motive in the WM case.

I agree that it is no doubt traumatic to be raised by a father (without a mother's daily presence) who was a heavy drinker or alcoholic, but countless people sadly experience such a cruel childhood situation or worse and most don't later become killers, IMO.

DM's resentment of WM could have, as you say, contributed to DM's motive to murder WM, if he did, IMO.

All MOO.

 

[SnooperDuper]

I agree that it is no doubt traumatic to be raised by a father (without a mother's daily presence) who was a heavy drinker or alcoholic, but countless people sadly experience such a cruel childhood situation or worse and most don't later become killers, IMO.

DM's resentment of WM could have, as you say, contributed to DM's motive to murder WM, if he did, IMO.

All MOO.

I think there are many many factors that worked together to create DM. WM's drinking is one; WM's need to create a family legacy through DM.

Another huge factor is obviously the company DM kept, his friends and CN.

 

[Sillybilly]

:modstop:

Stop the personalizing and the bickering about who should post how/what or think how/what. If you see that a post is a violation of TOS, alert on it and don't discuss it ... otherwise your post gets removed as well.

Posts have been removed. Keep the discussion focused on the case, not on each other.

:tyou:

 

[swedie]

Gang initiation might sound a little far-fetched, but that's the scenario I keep going back to.

Who would you suspect was the gang member? What about that person make you believe they are a gang member? Are there any known facts which have come out to show either was gang affiliated? TIA and MOO.

 

[hopingforjustice]

Speaking of wearing gloves the whole time, DM and CN and TB's DNA were found on disposable nitrile gloves likely used for cleaning up the crime scene. MS's DNA was not found on any gloves. DM OTOH was arrested with the gloves in his pocket.

Seems like DM was the one who wiped it down and/or was wearing gloves the whole time.

There's no evidence to implicate MS.

BBM

I am guessing that is how he can sit so quietly in his chair and completely avoid DM's antics. He knew he had covered his butt by wearing gloves the whole time. He would know from discovery what they did or didn't have on him. I am guessing his legal team has told him to just sit tight and let DM hang himself. I think the real show is going to start when the D's start.

 

[Gumshew]

The original poster suggested that DM wearing plaid shirts and carrying a satchel didn't exactly make him appear to be a gang member. I have no idea how you morphed that into "at least he wasn't cleaning toilets in a hangar to make money. Far from it", which appeared to be a jab a MS and anyone else lowly enough to have to do this to make money. Unlike the rich guy who didn't have to do a darn thing and felt entitled enough to have other people do everything for him, along with expecting special treatment while he sits in jail.MOO

I see. So it's not okay for me to take jabs at MS but perfectly okay for you to take jabs at "the rich guy", Dellen Millard, and his entitlement, him having other people do everything for him and the special treatment he gets while he sits in jail. Are you saying that there is something wrong with being rich?

 

[Alethea Dice]

How can you possibly state this as fact? How do you know that no deals have been given to anyone involved in the TB case?

Because they have to be announced publicly, by law. They are not allowed to make a deal and keep it secret.

Is that a fact?

I'm not sure this is true. According to the Department of Justice website, a plea bargain does not even have to be revealed to the court, so I'm not sure how it could be mandated that it be announced publicly.

However, the Criminal Code does not require that the existence of a plea bargain be made known to the court in the course of such a pre–trial hearing: nor does the Code impose a duty on trial judges to investigate the circumstances underlying a plea bargain, if it comes to their attention that one has, in fact, been reached between Crown and defence counsel.

http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/cj-jp/victim/rr02_5/p3_3.html

At present, the only Canadian jurisdictions that have enacted legislation concerning the role of victims in the plea bargaining process are Manitoba and Ontario. However, the Ontario legislation merely requires that victims "should have access to information" about "any pretrial arrangements that relate to a plea that may be entered by the accused at trial" (Victims' Bill of Rights, 1995, c. 6., s. 2(x)).

Some of us may remember the day when an unexpected court appearance was made, the public and press was banned, and the Judge asked the Crown and Defense "talk to each other about the issue at hand". Of course, the press fought it and won the right to access the transcript of the proceedings, but only those who did have any idea what happened that day (or in any of the other pre-trial motions, as far as that goes).

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2015/02/25/tim-bosma-family-press-barred-from-pretrial-motions.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/tim-bosma-case-cbc-and-other-media-win-right-to-attend-pretrial-hearings-1.3023147

So, as far as I can see, the public would not necessarily be aware of any plea bargains until after the trial is over, if ever.

JMO

 

[Kamille]

I see. So it's not okay for me to take jabs at MS but perfectly okay for you to take jabs at "the rich guy", Dellen Millard, and his entitlement, him having other people do everything for him and the special treatment he gets while he sits in jail. Are you saying that there is something wrong with being rich?

Not at all, it's the lazy entitlement because his family had money that's the problem. And apparently that's not just my opinion. People in his real life, like AS and perhaps his uncle RB, seemed to have the same opinion of him. I'm taking a jab at him for something that he does that is usually frowned upon by society. People cleaning toilets for a living would not fall into that category IMO.

MOO

 

[ABro]

I'm not sure this is true. According to the Department of Justice website, a plea bargain does not even have to be revealed to the court, so I'm not sure how it could be mandated that it be announced publicly.



http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/cj-jp/victim/rr02_5/p3_3.html


Some of us may remember the day when an unexpected court appearance was made, the public and press was banned, and the Judge asked the Crown and Defense "talk to each other about the issue at hand". Of course, the press fought it and won the right to access the transcript of the proceedings, but only those who did have any idea what happened that day (or in any of the other pre-trial motions, as far as that goes).

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2015/02/25/tim-bosma-family-press-barred-from-pretrial-motions.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/tim-bosma-case-cbc-and-other-media-win-right-to-attend-pretrial-hearings-1.3023147

So, as far as I can see, the public would not necessarily be aware of any plea bargains until after the trial is over, if ever.

JMO

A plea bargain made by a witness has to be revealed to the defence as part of disclosure. It speaks to the witness's credibility and has material impact.

The defence lawyers have the right to cross examine a witness who has made a plea bargain about the terms of the plea. Think John Rosen cross examining Karla Homolka for a famous example.

The link you provided is to material about the victim's role in coming to a plea agreement. It's a completely separate issue.

Like any member of the public, you can go to the courthouse and order any transcripts you want from this case. Pre-trial motions in all cases are covered by a temporary publication ban.

 

[Alethea Dice]

How can you possibly state this as fact? How do you know that no deals have been given to anyone involved in the TB case?

ok, found it, DM moved his red dodge ram to Cambridge, SS followed and then the 2 of them went to the hanger. Most likely that his red truck was also a stolen vehicle. IMO I hope we find out.

How long did all that take...was the time ever mentioned????

Not sure if this has been answered yet. It took 12 minutes.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont Mar 10
Shot taken at 4 pm. Vehicle left, black Dodge Caravan followed it out. Went to Maplegrove Road in Cambridge, a bungalow with shed out back.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont Mar 10
Truck, minivan go to shed. Red truck left there, two men in van go back to hangar. Couldn't ID men, too far away. Arrive hangar 4:12 pm.

Mar 10 2016 11:08 AM
Police followed the truck when it left the hangar.
Adam Carter

Mar 10 2016 11:08 AM
This was around 4 p.m.
Adam Carter

Mar 10 2016 11:09 AM
A black caravan followed the truck.
Adam Carter

Mar 10 2016 11:11 AM
The two vehicles went to a residence in Cambridge. The red truck was left there. Two white men were then in the van and went back to the hangar.
Adam Carter

Mar 10 2016 11:11 AM
By 4:12 p.m., they were back at the hangar.
Adam Carter

 

[Alethea Dice]

How can you possibly state this as fact? How do you know that no deals have been given to anyone involved in the TB case?

ok, found it, DM moved his red dodge ram to Cambridge, SS followed and then the 2 of them went to the hanger. Most likely that his red truck was also a stolen vehicle. IMO I hope we find out.

I think that's exactly what happened, with AM and SS. It is not a crime to know about a crime. I think they talked immediately to avoid being charged.

In the case of MWJ, he has no reason to make a deal. He was found not guilty in his first trial and in the next trial, the charges were thrown out. He's not facing any penalties so he has nothing to bargain for.

CN didn't talk until after her arrest and jailing. There's no reason for the Crown to reward her for talking at this late point.

Except the Crown has asked for a review about those drugs and weapons charges being thrown out. Wonder if anything happened with that yet? And he is still facing the charge for selling the gun to DM, so he is still facing penalties.

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/tag/matthew-ward-jackson

 

[Alethea Dice]

A plea bargain made by a witness has to be revealed to the defence as part of disclosure. It speaks to the witness's credibility and has material impact.

The defence lawyers have the right to cross examine a witness who has made a plea bargain about the terms of the plea. Think John Rosen cross examining Karla Homolka for a famous example.

The link you provided is to material about the victim's role in coming to a plea agreement. It's a completely separate issue.

Like any member of the public, you can go to the courthouse and order any transcripts you want from this case. Pre-trial motions in all cases are covered by a temporary publication ban.

So, since the witnesses who may have had reason to make a plea bargain haven't been called yet, we may just not know about this yet? TIA

 

[ABro]

So, since the witnesses who may have had reason to make a plea bargain haven't been called yet, we may just not know about this yet? TIA

Exactly.

 

[Sillybilly]

Perhaps it's time for a few folks to take a step back and review:

The Rules

Dealing with your fellow posters

Etiquette & Information

At all times, please post respectfully toward other members.

 

[Claroon]

If this isn't allowed, please remove it. I know it may come under "speculation" and my mind playing tricks, but I captured a few more shots off the Bobcat video and changed the lighting. One picture looks like a man in red.



Another couple, I see 2 people, just above bottom light, that look like they're kicking someone while someone else is seated on the grass to the bottom right. Sorry, I didn't put time stamps on the spots. I'm sure LE professionals have scoured this themselves with more professional equip.

Am I crazy?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

If this isn't allowed, please remove it. I know it may come under "speculation" and my mind playing tricks, but I captured a few more shots off the Bobcat video and changed the lighting. One picture looks like a man in red.

View attachment 90748

Another couple, I see 2 people, just above bottom light, that look like they're kicking someone while someone else is seated on the grass to the bottom right. Sorry, I didn't put time stamps on the spots. I'm sure LE professionals have scoured this themselves with more professional equip.

Am I crazy?

View attachment 90749

View attachment 90750

View attachment 90751

View attachment 90752

If you would draw a circle around the people you are seeing perhaps then I could see them too.