Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #8

[brightii]

Now that it's clear that DM at least is going to be spending the next 25 years in prison, I wonder how long his administrative segregation will last?

I expect that he will be segregated for his protection until all the trials are over, because he is so high profile, and the prison system would not want him dead before he was fully tried.

Then a few years for the publicity to wear off, perhaps?

It's going to be a rough start to a life in prison.

As an opponent of the death penalty, and as a person who abhors violence in every way, I would hope that DM and/or MS are not murdered in prison if found guilty. They each do have families, and although they mercilessly (if convicted) took an innocent man's life (and perhaps more victims, if convicted of those murders) and left their victim's many innocent loved ones to grieve, I could not take any pleasure or satisfaction in news that someone harmed or murdered either of them.

Nothing that happens going forward will change the past or bring life back to the victim(s), or comfort and console their families. I realize that some people may want to see the accused suffer or even die in prison because of their allegedly evil actions, but for me, such a wish would make me feel less humane and more like the killers themselves. I don't ever want to be capable of knowing what it is like to kill someone, or to even wish someone dead, no matter their crime. The crime(s) of the accused, (if convicted), IMO are theirs alone to atone for, and if either or both accused, if convicted, are tortured or tormented in prison or killed, that IMO would not be just punishment, it would be yet another senseless crime.

I want justice for TB but I hope not to hear of any more blood spilled. There's already too much.

And SnooperDuper, I'm not suggesting you want to see any violence against either accused, your post just got me thinking about how I feel about that very real possibility for both or either accused, if convicted, if or when they meet with the reality of prison life.

All MOO.

 

[Inspector_North]

As an opponent of the death penalty, and as a person who abhors violence in every way, I would hope that DM and/or MS are not murdered in prison if found guilty. They each do have families, and although they mercilessly (if convicted) took an innocent man's life (and perhaps more victims, if convicted of those murders) and left their victim's many innocent loved ones to grieve, I could not take any pleasure or satisfaction in news that someone harmed or murdered either of them.

Nothing that happens going forward will change the past or bring life back to the victim(s), or comfort and console their families. I realize that some people may want to see the accused suffer or even die in prison because of their allegedly evil actions, but for me, such a wish would make me feel less humane and more like the killers themselves. I don't ever want to be capable of knowing what it is like to kill someone, or to even wish someone dead, no matter their crime. The crime(s) of the accused, (if convicted), IMO are theirs alone to atone for, and if either or both accused, if convicted, are tortured or tormented in prison or killed, that IMO would not be just punishment, it would be yet another senseless crime.

I want justice for TB but I hope not to hear of any more blood spilled. There's already too much.

And SnooperDuper, I'm not suggesting you want to see any violence against either accused, your post just got me thinking about how I feel about that very real possibility for both or either accused, if convicted, if or when they meet with the reality of prison life.

All MOO.

Agreed. It will be a big change when and if he ever gets out. Most likely a diesel will be really really hard to find in 25 years.

 

[billandrew]

Can someone knowledgable of the law explain like I'm five why they can't have one trial for the murders of LB and TB? It's the same two guys accused in each case, and supposedly there is a lot of overlapping evidence.

 

[Susanne]

Wonderful, informative post! But did you even take a breath creating it? I was almost breathless reading it all so fast.
Many thanks!!

My most sincere apologies...........the above reply was to MsSherlock post #29, my eyes are not what they used to be.

But all in all, the postings from you guys and gals take my breath away.

 

[Yendys]

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 52s53 seconds ago
NS: So during those 72 hours you could've looked inside the hangar by just looking in your phone. SS: Yes. #Bosma

Mar 31 2016 3:52 PM
"During those 72 hours, you could have looked inside the hangar by just looking at your phone," Sachak says.

This has me wondering.... did he check out the app and actually saw what was happening with TB's truck at the hanger!!!!
Is this why he needed to get a new phone the day he was told to stay away from the hanger.

If I was told to stay away from work, I would be very curious as to why. If I had an app that could let me see why I am to stay away, you bet your last dollar, I would be checking it out!!!! I think SS saw the truck, saw some activity with pulling things out of the truck, I think he saw too much and had to get rid of the phone!!!!!

curiosity may well have gotten the better of SS, but remember the cameras were not panning the hanger floor as usual. Now IIRC, the app could also control the cameras. Someone with more knowledge of these things will have to weigh in if an app can override manual positioning or if the app could be locked out from the hanger. Tks

 

[SnooperDuper]

As an opponent of the death penalty, and as a person who abhors violence in every way, I would hope that DM and/or MS are not murdered in prison if found guilty. They each do have families, and although they mercilessly (if convicted) took an innocent man's life (and perhaps more victims, if convicted of those murders) and left their victim's many innocent loved ones to grieve, I could not take any pleasure or satisfaction in news that someone harmed or murdered either of them.

Nothing that happens going forward will change the past or bring life back to the victim(s), or comfort and console their families. I realize that some people may want to see the accused suffer or even die in prison because of their allegedly evil actions, but for me, such a wish would make me feel less humane and more like the killers themselves. I don't ever want to be capable of knowing what it is like to kill someone, or to even wish someone dead, no matter their crime. The crime(s) of the accused, (if convicted), IMO are theirs alone to atone for, and if either or both accused, if convicted, are tortured or tormented in prison or killed, that IMO would not be just punishment, it would be yet another senseless crime.

I want justice for TB but I hope not to hear of any more blood spilled. There's already too much.

And SnooperDuper, I'm not suggesting you want to see any violence against either accused, your post just got me thinking about how I feel about that very real possibility for both or either accused, if convicted, if or when they meet with the reality of prison life.

All MOO.

Well said.

I'm anti-death-penalty too, because I think loss of your freedom is enough. Prison doesn't even have to be as bad as all that: I expect one day DM will live in a medium-security cottage with green grass around him. However, I think his introduction to imprisonment has been pretty rough (isolation) and it will continue to be tough for some time.

 

[brightii]

Well said.

I'm anti-death-penalty too, because I think loss of your freedom is enough. Prison doesn't even have to be as bad as all that: I expect one day DM will live in a medium-security cottage with green grass around him. However, I think his introduction to imprisonment has been pretty rough (isolation) and it will continue to be tough for some time.

I agree 100% SnooperDuper! Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I sometimes worry that the way I express my views may offend others though that's never my intention. Loss of my freedom would literally be my worst nightmare. For me, that would be a torture, and a fate by far worse than death, IMO.

My compassion is completely and genuinely reserved for the victims and their families, but, like you, I could never wish harm to any living creature.

All MOO.

 

[Arnie M]

.

I have nothing to add to the real estate discussions but want to point out that of the three businesses they (WM+DM) owned one was Millard Properties Ltd .... so it stands to reason that trips to the lumber store , or hiring people to do renovations , building decks , or buying miles of garden hose had absolutely nothing to do with airplanes and I find it strange that was not even pointed out in court.

That could very well include the farm , backhoes and bobcats , plans for houses and workshops , those things all fall within the functions of a property holding company , and is the wise thing to do for tax purposes , and keeps separate records from anything aviation .

And as far as I remember the 6-plex rental unit was the original home of Carl and then it was assigned to DM . Point is that 6 units at $2000 per month brings $144,000 per year less taxes and maintenance could earn DM over $100,000 a year , and if he was also on salary with the aviation division , and if he lived at home and WM paid all the bills DM could easily end up with a substantial bank account of his own after a couple of years .... maybe even enough to pay cash for the farm.

So if that is the case it means DM was not sitting around doing absolutely nothing while drawing big wages from the hangar. At the very least DM was a property manager of his own real estate and derived his own income from it. I am thinking that when WM needed working capital for the new MRO maybe they had to pledge the 6-plex as security and that could have caused some friction between them if DM's assets were now on the line.

Sloppy bookkeeping aside , even Villada Homes fits nicely within a property management company , I find it strange the defense lawyers did not point that out . Instead it is portrayed as a weird airplane company running garden hoses all night while planning to build a deck.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Can someone knowledgable of the law explain like I'm five why they can't have one trial for the murders of LB and TB? It's the same two guys accused in each case, and supposedly there is a lot of overlapping evidence.

Different jurisdictions; one is HPS and the other is TPS.

 

[SnooperDuper]

.

I have nothing to add to the real estate discussions but want to point out that of the three businesses they (WM+DM) owned one was Millard Properties Ltd .... so it stands to reason that trips to the lumber store , or hiring people to do renovations , building decks , or buying miles of garden hose had absolutely nothing to do with airplanes and I find it strange that was not even pointed out in court.

That could very well include the farm , backhoes and bobcats , plans for houses and workshops , those things all fall within the functions of a property holding company , and is the wise thing to do for tax purposes , and keeps separate records from anything aviation .

And as far as I remember the 6-plex rental unit was the original home of Carl and then it was assigned to DM . Point is that 6 units at $2000 per month brings $144,000 per year less taxes and maintenance could earn DM over $100,000 a year , and if he was also on salary with the aviation division , and if he lived at home and WM paid all the bills DM could easily end up with a substantial bank account of his own after a couple of years .... maybe even enough to pay cash for the farm.

No CW's original home was a postage stamp sized bungalow. The 6-plex was an income property. The thing is DM didn't have the 6-plex fully rented out: he let MS and MM stay there, JV had two apartments at a discounted rate, other apartments were vacant because they were under renovation, and one was not going to be rented out at all because DM was going to live there.

So if that is the case it means DM was not sitting around doing absolutely nothing while drawing big wages from the hangar. At the very least DM was a property manager of his own real estate and derived his own income from it. I am thinking that when WM needed working capital for the new MRO maybe they had to pledge the 6-plex as security and that could have caused some friction between them if DM's assets were now on the line.

Sloppy bookkeeping aside , even Villada Homes fits nicely within a property management company , I find it strange the defense lawyers did not point that out . Instead it is portrayed as a weird airplane company running garden hoses all night while planning to build a deck.

I don't see that DM was making a lot of income off of the 6-plex. You have to have tenants for that.

 

[Arnie M]

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 52s53 seconds ago
NS: So during those 72 hours you could've looked inside the hangar by just looking in your phone. SS: Yes. #Bosma

Mar 31 2016 3:52 PM
"During those 72 hours, you could have looked inside the hangar by just looking at your phone," Sachak says.

This has me wondering.... did he check out the app and actually saw what was happening with TB's truck at the hanger!!!!
Is this why he needed to get a new phone the day he was told to stay away from the hanger.

If I was told to stay away from work, I would be very curious as to why. If I had an app that could let me see why I am to stay away, you bet your last dollar, I would be checking it out!!!! I think SS saw the truck, saw some activity with pulling things out of the truck, I think he saw too much and had to get rid of the phone!!!!!

May I add to that by saying there are a whole bunch of modern state-of-the-art security cameras on the outside of the hangar that have never been mentioned except the one that was turned toward the siding of the building that caught the reflection of headlights when the incinerator crew arrived that night.

Were all those other cameras disabled or unhooked ?? Why nothing mentioned in court ?? .... at the very least it could indicate some pre-planning .

 

[MsSherlock]

I agree with you, bridge financing for a short term is almost treated like a second mortgage for any new purchase and are higher rates run accordingly.

But for an investment property, such as a rental home, I would think you would want the best rate of interest for the longest period of time, depending on the economy of course. Reason being that usually rental properties are not for flipping but for having the tenants pay off the mortgage, taxes, insurance, and any utilities or other expenses you incur. Mortgage interest, the bulk of what you pay the banks, are tax deductible for rental properties as are repairs and some maintenance costs. Depreciation write-offs for repairs and improvements only lasts so many years until you start paying taxes on the rental income.

Besides, you may not pay off your mortgage, rental or principal residence, before you want to sell but in most cases you can take your mortgage with you to your new purchase so you can avoid any penalty fees.

JMHO and HTH

Bank financing falls into 2 categories. Secure and unsecured. Visa cards and overdrafts are example of unsecured debts Some Lines of Credit are unsecured. All that means is that the bank is willing to lend you the money based on your credit worthiness. Canadian Banks have 2 types of mortgage vehicles. Conventional(aka Traditional) and Collateral. Both are registered as mortgages against real estate. When a Line of Credit cannot be given as an unsecured debt, it will be secured against real estate as Collateral mortgage. A Conventional mortgage is specific to a single property, whereas a Collateral mortgage can blanket many. Banks love Collateral mortgages.

Here's a great link that explains it fully.

http://www.mortgagewisefinancial.com/mortgage-information/conventional-vs-collateral-mortgages

Bridge financing is a totally different thing and cannot be confused with a Line of Credit. Bridge financing is a combination of various lending vehicles. What the bank is doing is taking both pieces of real estate as security and sending the Lawyer a Direction. This instructs the Lawyer to forward them a certain amount of the proceeds as soon as the last deal closes. Interest rates are usually a point above prime and some banks have a charge to cover setting it up.

As a side note- the Canadian Banking system is among one of the most stringent in the World. Post 2008, Canadian Banks always take more than enough security. The 3.7 million dollar Line of Credit that WM had taken out for Millardair was probably a Collateral Mortgage against the 6M dollar hangar along with a personal guarantee from WM himself.

For the Distillery Condo, DM was looking for a Conventional Mortgage to buy it. He may have been having problems coming up with the 20% down payment as well. For one reason or another he was a high risk. DM sold it via MB's after his arrest. The strange thing is that he could have walked away from it relatively unscathed. People walk away from real estate deals all the time. In Canada, you can only be sued for damages, so in the event he didn't close and the condo owners sold it for more, DM would have been off the hook. Sounds like "ego" got in the way. MOO

 

[Inspector_North]

May I add to that by saying there are a whole bunch of modern state-of-the-art security cameras on the outside of the hangar that have never been mentioned except the one that was turned toward the siding of the building that caught the reflection of headlights when the incinerator crew arrived that night.

Were all those other cameras disabled or unhooked ?? Why nothing mentioned in court ?? .... at the very least it could indicate some pre-planning .

If I remember correctly, someone said only two were functioning. Maybe CD (the IT guy) can answer that when he takes the stand.

I just received my security DVR today, and mine has many options to control remotely, and is account driven for remote access and control. There are many types of these devices, and some have more features than others.

This case convinced me to buy one before taking off to the cottage later this summer.

 

[Arnie M]

No CW's original home was a postage stamp sized bungalow. The 6-plex was an income property. The thing is DM didn't have the 6-plex fully rented out: he let MS and MM stay there, JV had two apartments at a discounted rate, other apartments were vacant because they were under renovation, and one was not going to be rented out at all because DM was going to live there.



I don't see that DM was making a lot of income off of the 6-plex. You have to have tenants for that.

Thanks Snooper .... (I could be wrong) but I think the Riverside property was where Carl and Della lived when the airline was thriving , I think Wayne was raised there , then CM bought Maplegate and turned Riverside into rental units.

WM inherited Maplegate and DM got Riverside and WM ran the old hangar rental business until the new MRO idea.

I may not have that exactly right. Anyway , the point I was trying to make was there was more than just a hangar business , there was also a completely separate property division thus many of DM's actions should be considered normal , not abnormal , not that it matters to me but if I was a lawyer I would have pointed that out.

 

[Elisabeth]

IMO, DM's cash situation is extremely relevant. It shows that DM was an absolute crazy lunatic mess. He was living in his delusional world spending 500K a year, while being faced with a very real world where lies and deceit don't work- aka the Bank and CRA. His delusions of grandeur shed light on his psychopathic behaviour and without a doubt, it would take an absolute psychopath to toss a body into an incinerator one day and continue with business meetings the next. IMO, the Crown is proving that DM lived in this delusional world. MOO

DM wanted the truck. He told several people he wanted a diesel right? He thought he had unsolvable cash flow problems. Therefore he intended to steal the truck (bringing a gun, using a fake name, burner phone) . Doesn't it speak to the intent? (It could also be intent to murder to others' points) but the truck was a prize in either case and the desire for the truck and the perceived cash flow problems back that up.


This link talks about the mens rea or guilty mind/intent as a necessary component to convict.
http://www.lawlessons.ca/lesson-plans/2.1.definition-and-principles

 

[Susanne]

As an aside, I am in the midst of many months long performing the duty of executrix (female executor) for my father's estate. Having to deal with so many financial institutions, real estate dealings, etc. got me thinking about WM and his will.

There have been so many great posts asking questions about DM and his financial status and uncontrolled spending habits that I really, really have to ask who in the world would be executor for the estate of WM? Probably not his ex-wife and Lord help the world if it was DM.
The executor of an estate is financially responsible for all assets of the deceased, whether it be real estate, bank accounts , credit and debit accounts, investments, income tax, capital gains etc. etc. I just can't picture DM being named as executor in WM's will due to his total lack of any business sense, but maybe WM did name him. I think only as executor could DM control every aspect of WM assets.

And could it be possible that WM was not too impressed with DM's irresponsible spending habits of WM's money and WM told DM he was going to change his will?
Could that be the reason WM met an untimely demise?
JMHO

 

[Sphinx]

The funny thing is that even DM's own defense is painting him as crazy. Sachak put the words right into Schlatman's mouth regarding the excavator in the swamp: "You knew Dellen and his habits."

Perhaps mental illness, or some kind of mental/emotional disorder will be a fall-back defense for appeal. Sachak may be irritating, and rude, but I think he is smarter than he appears in this trial, probably because he is listening to his client, and asking some questions he wants asked etc. IMO

 

[Sphinx]

DM was in Criminal Court today in Toronto. case CR-16-50000176-0000 at 361 University Avenue.

R v Millard. Trial Scheduling, assignment court.

I wonder if his Mother, MB showed up to support him, or has she turned on him too like her brother, the Vet. RB ? If she is a witness, then she has to stay away from court, until she testifies, but if she never testifies ( and I think she might, because the trailer was in her driveway ), then we know that she has more or less disowned her only child, and serial killer son. I could not blame her if that is the case. It will be very hard for her, and her family socially now in the area where they are now living. I imagine she is not welcome in many social circles anymore, and that she has few friends, if any, left. She may not want to lose her brother too. IMO

 

[paris_paris]

May I add to that by saying there are a whole bunch of modern state-of-the-art security cameras on the outside of the hangar that have never been mentioned except the one that was turned toward the siding of the building that caught the reflection of headlights when the incinerator crew arrived that night.

Were all those other cameras disabled or unhooked ?? Why nothing mentioned in court ?? .... at the very least it could indicate some pre-planning .

SS said in court that when the temperature was cold the cameras would point down towards the building.

Someone else asked how those cameras worked. SS could view them and change the position of them from his phone. Anyone else could do the same as long as they had a login and password. Very likely the IT guy had the same control, as well as DM. My son had the same setup and I had a login with the same access as he had. Although I don't recall anything about the cameras pointing down toward the building when it was cold out.

 

[billandrew]

Different jurisdictions; one is HPS and the other is TPS.

Thanks, Snooper. I was thinking that since criminal law is federal legislation in Canada, that the two murder cases would fall under a single, federal jurisdiction. I've been searching for further reading on this but have had no luck.

I've also been looking at the Paul Bernardo trial. Didn't his offenses take place across multiple jurisdictions? AFAIK he had one trial for all of his offenses.