Brad Cooper: Appeal info

[Madeleine74]

Hi Calgary!

I agree with your assessment. On some level one can say there can never be justice since the deceased can not be brought back. So it comes down to punishment.

There are many cases in the U.S. (and even within NC) in which a plea was offered to get the case closed and completed and it's done to benefit each side, but no it's not true "justice" in some of the cases.

One example is Ann Miller Contz - a Raleigh woman who cruelly poisoned her husband, Eric Miller, over a period of time, with arsenic, rather than just divorce him. They were both highly educated researchers. She was/is a sociopath. They had a baby daughter. She wanted Eric gone just because and she didn't want to have to share the baby daughter. She was having an affair with a married man and that guy ended up committing suicide as she got him involved in her twisted plot. She ended up taking a plea for conspiracy & Murder 2, even though it was very much a premeditated and planned murder. She is serving 25 yrs in prison. She would have gotten life and she could have been eligible for the DP with a conspiracy and Murder 1 charge. Lots of complications in that case and it took the DA years to arrest her. Then the plea for 2nd degree. She'll get out in about 20 years, but at least her daughter will not have grown up with that sociopath.

The cost to retry a case, the cost in emotion and wear-n-tear on the victim's family, and a never-ending docket of more cases in the pipeline to prosecute are all factors that play in adjudicating cases. Many victim's families just want the person in prison even if it means it's for less than a life term. Jury trials are always risky and there's never any guarantee of an outcome. DA's want cases resolved. Defendants want the best deal they can get and a plea can be their golden opportunity to get out someday. Such an imperfect system, all of it.

 

[oenophile]

And there can never be justice if they never find the real killers of Nancy, which is the way it looks at this point. Instead you have someone potentially innocent that sits in jail, separated from his family and his life, and killers out roaming the streets. I think the only way that we will ever know who killed Nancy is if somehow the killers are discovered while committing another crime, and they end up confessing or some evidence is found (such as Nancy's jogging clothes or shoes). Of course, if they end up committing another murder while Brad was locked up, shame on the police and the DA.

In general, though, I agree with the assessment that a plea for Murder 2 makes no sense. Either it was premeditated or he didn't do it, those are the only two possibilities.

 

[borndem]

If he pleas to second degree murder, what is the minimum-maximum years?

TIA

It's not a simple determination -- it varies on prior felony points -- and BC should have none of those; it also varies according to mitigating & aggravating factors which would be presented during the negotiations. For someone like BC, prolly -- and this is a seat-of-the-pants-and-nothing-but as well as IANAL -- prolly from 12--25 years, or something around that. But it's a somewhat educated and wild-azz guess.

 

[borndem]

Hi Calgary!

I agree with your assessment. On some level one can say there can never be justice since the deceased can not be brought back. So it comes down to punishment.

There are many cases in the U.S. (and even within NC) in which a plea was offered to get the case closed and completed and it's done to benefit each side, but no it's not true "justice" in some of the cases.

One example is Ann Miller Contz - a Raleigh woman who cruelly poisoned her husband, Eric Miller, over a period of time, with arsenic, rather than just divorce him. They were both highly educated researchers. She was/is a sociopath. They had a baby daughter. She wanted Eric gone just because and she didn't want to have to share the baby daughter. She was having an affair with a married man and that guy ended up committing suicide as she got him involved in her twisted plot. She ended up taking a plea for conspiracy & Murder 2, even though it was very much a premeditated and planned murder. She is serving 25 yrs in prison. She would have gotten life and she could have been eligible for the DP with a conspiracy and Murder 1 charge. Lots of complications in that case and it took the DA years to arrest her. Then the plea for 2nd degree. She'll get out in about 20 years, but at least her daughter will not have grown up with that sociopath.

The cost to retry a case, the cost in emotion and wear-n-tear on the victim's family, and a never-ending docket of more cases in the pipeline to prosecute are all factors that play in adjudicating cases. Many victim's families just want the person in prison even if it means it's for less than a life term. Jury trials are always risky and there's never any guarantee of an outcome. DA's want cases resolved. Defendants want the best deal they can get and a plea can be their golden opportunity to get out someday. Such an imperfect system, all of it.

Very well said, Madeleine74 -- Thanks. Yep, you're right -- Kontz got a sweet deal -- but at least she's still behind bars & will be for a while... Vile, conniving socio, as you said.

When the two sides of the courtroom start making deals, the definition of the actual murder charge (i.e., M1 vs. M2, premeditation, cold blood/hot blood, malice, etc., etc.) go out the window -- when they talk pleas & deals, each side is just trying to get to a somewhat mutual resolution.

 

[JusticeFever]

Yes, but look at this !

http://www.wral.com/nancy-cooper-case-timeline/9232124/

Oct. 27, 2008.. Brad Cooper arrested and charged with 1st degree murder
Dec. 5, 2008....Prosecutors announce they won't seek the Death Penalty

So, when was a plea deal offered? Between the time he was arrested and the time they dropped the DP, or right before trial? And, how did Prosecutors get from possibly a DP case all the way down to a 2nd degree? What was their line of thinking that they could not win this case ? :waitasec:

 

[borndem]

Yes, but look at this !

http://www.wral.com/nancy-cooper-case-timeline/9232124/

Oct. 27, 2008.. Brad Cooper arrested and charged with 1st degree murder
Dec. 5, 2008....Prosecutors announce they won't seek the Death Penalty

So, when was a plea deal offered? Between the time he was arrested and the time they dropped the DP, or right before trial? And, how did Prosecutors get from possibly a DP case all the way down to a 2nd degree? What was their line of thinking that they could not win this case ? :waitasec:

IIRC, the DP was never a serious thought with this case.

If a case is to be tried which includes the DP, the prosecution must announce it early-on. There must be DP-qualified defense attys & ADA's for a DP trial. And then the jury must be qualified. So when M1 is charged, the DP side is "always" a possibility. A lot of the early language/negotiation is pro forma. JMO.

 

[Madeleine74]

The plea deal conversation was initiated (allegedly) by the defense right after the google search came out, before the case concluded and went to the jury. I say allegedly because the way I heard it at the time, it was supposedly Trenkle who started the conversation, looking at plea deal opportunities. That may or may not be correct in whole or in part, and please note... I am not saying it is correct... it's only what I heard back then at the time.

Clearly though some of it was correct -- a plea deal before the trial concluded and went to the jury was discussed and that was confirmed last week. What happened to this deal, where it went, if it was presented to BC or not, who knows. Judge Stephens did confirm in last week's hearing that a plea deal was "on the table before the jury got the case in 2011."

 

[Landonsmom02]

Yes, but look at this !

http://www.wral.com/nancy-cooper-case-timeline/9232124/

Oct. 27, 2008.. Brad Cooper arrested and charged with 1st degree murder
Dec. 5, 2008....Prosecutors announce they won't seek the Death Penalty

So, when was a plea deal offered? Between the time he was arrested and the time they dropped the DP, or right before trial? And, how did Prosecutors get from possibly a DP case all the way down to a 2nd degree? What was their line of thinking that they could not win this case ? :waitasec:

I don't think it had anything to do about "thinking they couldn't win the case" when taking the DP off the table, it had more to do with the factors of this being a DP case. As Borndem stated there are alot of mitigating factors in place when considering the DP. IMO, I haven't been up to date with this case. I read AL book and wasn't impressed. I still don't know if he is innocent or not but I do think he deserves a new trial.

 

[JusticeFever]

IIRC, the DP was never a serious thought with this case.

If a case is to be tried which includes the DP, the prosecution must announce it early-on. There must be DP-qualified defense attys & ADA's for a DP trial. And then the jury must be qualified. So when M1 is charged, the DP side is "always" a possibility. A lot of the early language/negotiation is pro forma. JMO.

So basically, by saying they considered the Death Penalty, however briefly, then took it off the table, just sounds more like an official formality, imo.
And, because we do not know when a plea bargain was offered (although I think it's a pretty sure thing to think it was 2nd degree) we don't know the details or timing.
I just find it very interesting that at one point the DP was considered to then go all the way down to offering a 2nd degree murder charge,,,,,,

Thanks, Bordem, and I know we will be on opposite sides of this one, but I enjoy your posts.

 

[JusticeFever]

It's not a simple determination -- it varies on prior felony points -- and BC should have none of those; it also varies according to mitigating & aggravating factors which would be presented during the negotiations. For someone like BC, prolly -- and this is a seat-of-the-pants-and-nothing-but as well as IANAL -- prolly from 12--25 years, or something around that. But it's a somewhat educated and wild-azz guess.

Yes, I had posted 11-25 years a few comments back, and, with Brad already serving almost 6 years, he could do another hard 10 and that would be a compromise of the lightest sentence to the heaviest sentence. He would be out sometime around 2024.....I hope if this is the deal offered, he will take it, and Nancy's family seems to be okay with it..
Although, I am sure the familes are considered in all these decisions , it is still the state's final call...whether to make it a DP case or when to offer a lesser charge,
JMO

 

[JusticeFever]

"Prosecutors said they offered a plea deal to Cooper before the first trial and are willing to do so again"....



Wait, here is the answer right here.

The Prosecution offered Brad a plea deal before the first trial.

 

[Madeleine74]

WRAL has it incorrect, as is sometimes (often) the case.

ABC11 has it correct: the plea was offered before the case went to the jury. Not before the case went to trial.

 

[borndem]

So basically, by saying they considered the Death Penalty, however briefly, then took it off the table, just sounds more like an official formality, imo.
And, because we do not know when a plea bargain was offered (although I think it's a pretty sure thing to think it was 2nd degree) we don't know the details or timing.
I just find it very interesting that at one point the DP was considered to then go all the way down to offering a 2nd degree murder charge,,,,,,

Thanks, Bordem, and I know we will be on opposite sides of this one, but I enjoy your posts.

Same here, Fever -- we've certainly been on the same side of other cases -- many times. And we will again, I'm sure!!

 

[JusticeFever]

WRAL has it incorrect, as is sometimes (often) the case.

ABC11 has it correct: the plea was offered before the case went to the jury. Not before the case went to trial.

The point I am trying to make and you don't have to agree with me, is that at one time they were looking or at least thinking about the possibility of putting Brad Cooper on Death Row and then coming all the way down to a 2nd degree murder charge which would have given him 25 years at the max, so what I am asking is what changed?

I have seen the DP used as a bargaining chip, such as in the Westerfield case, when they couldn't find Danielle's body and they wanted to bring her home, when at the last moment her body was found.

I have seen a plea deal put on the table in cases when they wanted a confession or maybe when they weren't sure of their case.
I have seen a plea deal used as a bargaining tool to get certain information that may not be obtained otherwise.

So, what happened in this case specifically, that made the state consider the DP to later offer a plea of 2nd degree?
Do you not see the big difference in sentencing a man to die as opposed to letting him out in 25 years?

 

[JusticeFever]

Same here, Fever -- we've certainly been on the same side of other cases -- many times. And we will again, I'm sure!!

Thanks,Bordem, I can assure you the only 2 cases you will ever see me on "the other side" are Young and Cooper.
Thanks for being so nice about it...

 

[Madeleine74]

So, what happened in this case specifically, that made the state consider the DP to later offer a plea of 2nd degree?
Do you not see the big difference in sentencing a man to die as opposed to letting him out in 25 years?

You'd have to ask the sitting DA at that time for an exact answer.

All 1st degree murder cases are technically eligible for consideration of the DP in NC (a Rule 24 hearing). Obviously not all 1st degree murder cases warrant a DP consideration when the final charges are set with the court. What makes one 1st degree murder case a DP case but not another 1st degree murder case? I'm sure there are many factors involved in making such a decision, among them: any prior felony offenses, number of victims, age of victims, multiple charges and what those charges may entail, if there are minor children involved or impacted, feelings of the victim's family to the DP, just to name a few.

In the BC case the factors are:

- Victim was an adult, not random to the accused
- Number of victims = 1
- No prior felonies by the accused
- No other charges in the crime (like kidnapping or conspiracy as an example)
- 2 minor children involved/impacted
- Victim's family not for the DP (and maybe they are actively against it, I don't know)

The DP is reserved for the "worst of the worst."

- Little Teghan's torturer and killer. That's "worst of the worst."
- That 10 month old baby that was sexually assaulted and murdered. (Jury saved perp's hide because they bought his PTSD defense)
- Kathy Taft (I was on the fence on this one) but it was a burglary, sexual assault, and then murder. Multiple charges, dangerous offender

 

[Madeleine74]

And for those who want to better understand the laws and statutes behind the DP in North Carolina:

http://www.unc.edu/~fbaum/teaching/articles/Welty-DP-overview.pdf

 

[JusticeFever]

Scott Peterson is/was a DP case, Jodi Arias is a DP case, and Casey Anthony was a DP case, so there are 3 other examples that although did not occur in Raleigh all met the DP requirements in their respective states.

Thanks for the reply, I usually associate a DP case with one that is strong and with little margin of any other outcome. It seemed at the time of their arrests that both Cooper and Young would be tried as capitol cases.

Now, I have to wonder also, after the 8-4 NG in Young's first trial, if maybe he was not offered a plea deal too, but turned it down....and not to turn this into a JY thread, but word should be coming soon from the court.....very soon.

JMO

 

[Landonsmom02]

So I have been reading up on this case and I really don't see another suspect or anyone else to hurt NC but BC? I'm still catching up but right now I'm leaning toward G. For the NG, can you give my some insight to why you think he didn't do it?

 

[SStarr33]

So I have been reading up on this case and I really don't see another suspect or anyone else to hurt NC but BC? I'm still catching up but right now I'm leaning toward G. For the NG, can you give my some insight to why you think he didn't do it?

Your best bet would be to read the blog Justice for Brad or watch the trial. There is just too much for a short forum post.