Brian Pardo and Darlie's Defense

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Dani_T said:
In that very one sentence you have annihilated all integrity of around a dozen individuals who you don't even know- individuals whose job it was to serve and protect and to care and heal and who have no reason to as a group decide to colluide and lie to make their testimonies sound the same. You've also cast grave aspersions of the integrity of Greg Davis and the other DA team. You have obviously made up your mind that it was a big giant conspiracy to put an innocent woman in jail.
Nobody has "annihilated the integrity" of witnesses (except Denise Faulk, who, I believe, does lack integrity - and I've stated my reason why) and no one has suggested a "conspiracy" exists. Where has anyone "cast grave aspesions on the integrity" of Greg Davis or Toby Shook?!

Why are you making such inflammatory statements? Why are you so angered by people who disagree with you? No offense, but reading some of your stuff makes me think you're a little too emotional to rationally consider what other people have to say...
 
Mary456 said:
Dr. Dillawn testified that Darlie's neck wound was about 10 cm long, so maybe Pardo confused centimeters with inches. Btw, I was wrong...Darlie's neck wound was only about 4" long, not 8. Despite what some people say, I don't have the transcript memorized, lol! Where he came up with 3/4" deep is anyone's guess. In his dreams, maybe?



No one contradicted Dillawn's and Santos' testimony that the knife did not penetrate Darlie's bone. And remember, this bone is very, very close to the surface in that part of the arm. Mulder wasn't a fool. He wasn't about to refute that testimony, because x-rays would have proven him wrong.



There's no focus notes or testimony about Darlie's mouth pain or bruises, because she didn't complain of mouth pain and there were no bruises while she was in the hospital. Sorry to hear you're so distrustful of Mulder, one of the best defense attorneys in Texas. Perhaps Darlie should have gone out of state & hired Geragos.
Thanks for that info...I guess I would have to give our little journalist an A for effort and enthusiasm and an F for factuality!

As for hiring another attorney, there are a few I can think of who probably would have done a better job than Mulder - the facts of this case just aren't, IMO, overwhelming enough to overcome the burden of reasonable doubt... She should have hired Rae Carruth's attorney - that guy was impressive!
 
cami said:
You may see reasonable doubt from reading the trial transcripts but obviously the jury didn't. Darlie testified in her own defense. The jury got to access her creditibility for themselves.
Well, Mulder should not have allowed this to happen...Most defendants want to take the stand and proclaim their innocence. Good defense attorneys convince them not to when it will be detrimental...No matter how insistent Darlie was, Mulder should have been more so!
 
Mary456 said:
When they can't attack the evidence, they attack the people who collected the evidence. Mulder was a master at that.
Not exactly a "master," I'd say...Instead of worrying about Cron's eyesight, he should have been focusing on the unstable mental health and alcoholism of Mr. fiber expert...
 
accordn2me said:
I do enjoy debating them with y'all here on websleuths as long as it's not aggravating people. :croc:
Me too! I can't understand why people get so upset - it's just a chat board, for God's sake!

I won't argue the semantics of "dress rehearsal" vs. "mock trial" vs. "pep rally." I think a better name for those several meetings would be - Memory Altering Exercises. I'm sure there would have been an objection, but Mulder certainly would have better made his point about them had he called them that.
Yep!

Darlie's real supporters would probably argue with me, but I don't believe the police, investigators, doctors, or nurses lied. I do think their memories, like everyone else's including the neighbors' and Darin's and Darlie's, were altered by discussions with each other. The constant replaying of one's mental tapes, along with comparasions of one's own tapes to those of others', and discussions to reconcile them all, for both sides, does cause people to confuse the truth.
Yep again!

Was Darin wearing pants and/or glasses when he first came down stairs?

What really woke him, a glass breaking or Darlie screaming? (go figure!)

Was Darin inside or in the yard when the officer arrived?

Was the front door locked or unlocked?

There are hundreds of questions like those for which the answers may never be known. Darlie and Darin gave hasty, handwritten statements after several hours of questioning, as their family and friends were waiting for them for viewing of the bodies, only two days after this mind-blowing tragedy. To be asked a mere 10 days later if they wanted to change their statements.....why would anyone assume the fog and confusion from blood loss, surgery, drugs, let alone such a tragedy, would be gone. How could anyone expect to get an exact accounting of the events from someone who had experienced such?

I don't expect it, so when I read different "versions" I don't automatically think, AHA - you're a liar! This goes for police, nurses/doctors, and other witnesses, as well as Darlie and Darin. I have to decide which of two, or more, different versions should get more weight, and why. Is the very first thing that comes out of a witness' mouth the truth....not necessarily. Is the 16th version more accurate than the first ones, probably not. By the time you have gone through it by yourself, with each and everyone else - especially a defense attorney - and sat in jail long enough for any normal person to have gone insane, I think it's safe to assume that these accountings are not to be given much weight at all.

The same goes for witnesses who have sat through numerous Memory-Altering Exercises with prosecutors. ;)
Excellent!
 
accordn2me said:
not with guys in white powdered wigs and tailcoats....but there was REHEARSING testimony and witnesses. one person may call it "mock trial" one may name it "dress rehearsal" or the newest for me "pep rally"

A rose by any other name is still a rose.


NO, they do NOT call it a "mock trial." Its called preparing one's witness.
 
accordn2me said:
Whatever this was then....

23 Q. Did you ever participate in a mock
24 trial
with them?
25 A. We had a meeting, yes.


1 Q. Okay. You call that a meeting?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Where you got up on the witness stand
4 and everybody told their story?

5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. You did that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. How long ago was that?
9 A. Maybe three weeks ago, I'm not really
10 for sure.
11 Q. Okay. Did they critique you after
12 that? I mean, tell you how you did, and tell you where
13 you can improve, and things of that nature?
14 A. They told me I did all right.
15 Q. Okay. Nothing wrong with that.
16 At that time did you hear the 911
17 tape?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay. Did you hear other officers
20 testify?
21 A. I heard some, yes.

22 Q. Okay. So, you did your part in it,
23 and you did it in a -- did you do it in a courtroom or
24 up in the DA's office, or where did you do it?
25 A. It was up in the courtroom.


1 Q. In a courtroom?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Okay. It wasn't in the District
4 Attorney's office?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Okay. But you got on the witness
7 stand just like you are there?

8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And went through the same thing that
10 you've gone through for the folks here?

11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Kind of a dress rehearsal, I guess?
13 A. Yes.



11 Q. Okay. So you had a dress rehearsal up
12 in Dallas and another one down here?
13 A. No, sir.

14 Q. But you came in here and listened to
15 the 911 tape?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. Okay. Was -- who else was present at
18 that time?
19 A. Myself and Sergeant Walling and a
20 couple more police officers, and people with the Dallas
21 County DA's office.
22 Q. Okay. Who were the other police
23 officers who were there?
24 A. Sergeant Ward, Sergeant Walling, Steve
25 Ferrie, Steve Wade, and there's probably a couple more I


1 don't remember.
2 Q. Everybody that you were sworn in with
3 the other day, were they all here?
4 A. I believe so, yeah.
5 Q. Okay. And did you discuss your
6 testimony at that time?
7 A. We went over it, yes.
8 Q. Well, I mean, that's the whole purpose
9 in getting together, to kind of go over everybody's
10 testimony.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So you understood what Walling was
13 going to say, and Walling understood what you were going
14 to say, and Ward understood what Walling and Waddell were
15 going to say, and everybody just --
16 A. No, sir, that was not the reason.
17 Q. But that was all done in -- you were
18 present when --
19 A. I was in the same room, yes.
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. The reason for me to do it, was to go
22 over my testimony.
23 Q. You -- all right. Now, just so I'm
24 clear, you had gone over with it a number of times up in
25 Dallas, had you not?


1 A. A couple.
2 Q. Well, and you had a hearing where you
3 were under oath just like you are now. You appreciate
4 that, don't you?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. Okay. And then you had the dress
7 rehearsal up in Dallas. Right?
8 A. Yes, sir.



SINCE YOU POSTED THIS, THEN YOU KNOW IT WAS NOT A MOCK TRIAL.
 
Fritzy's Mom said:
Why are you making such inflammatory statements? Why are you so angered by people who disagree with you? No offense, but reading some of your stuff makes me think you're a little too emotional to rationally consider what other people have to say...

LOL

That's OK- you don't know me and words on a screen are easy to miscontrue.

Trust me, I've argued this case long enough with people who disagree with me to not get emotional about it or to be angered by people who disagree. The discussion on this board is nothing in those stakes compared to what some of us have been involved in in the past.

In terms of discussing it rationally- I think I am more that capable of doing that and have done nothing but that on this thread. Frustration doesn't equal irrationality.

I'm sorry if you read my statements as inflammatory- but I'm only responding to claims such as the one that all the doctors, cops and nurses (along with the prosecutors) got together to collude on their answers, to refine their answers and practice at doing it until their own original testimonies were altered to match each others.

I find that offensive and I do believe that it basically says that none of those individuals (who have dedicated their vocations to helping me) have any integrity.

You only have do to a quick google search on terms like 'rehearse testimony prosecution laywer' to read that it is not only common practice and allowable by the American Justice system but is even outright encouraged by some.

As we've said already on this thread- Mulder was the individual who started the practice of these 'mock trials' or pep rally's or whatever it is you want to call them. Do you honestly think he didn't get his own witnesses together??? And why then can we not doubt all their testimony as being conspired in the same way you are doubting that of the nuses, doctors and cops?
 
Fritzy's Mom said:
So was Geragos. An excellent reputation doesn't necessarily guarantee an excellent defense, though.

Yes- but a poor defense doesn't necessarily guarantee a poor lawyer (or one who for some reason just completely dropped the ball). You're assuming that Mulder did a poor job on this case by not following every possible lead because he didn't make a big deal about them in court. Has it occurred to you that perhaps the reason he didn't make a big deal about them in court is because there was nothing to make a big deal about?

This is all I am saying:
1) he had an excellent track record and very good reputation
2) this was perhaps the biggest case he had to date
3) he had no reason to decide to do a poor job of representing Darlie and in fact he must have known poor representation could only harm his career
4) Darlie supporters claim that he didn't follow up on certain leads/evidence

I just don't understand why you are so quick to ignore 1, 2 and 3 and not factor them into your thinking on this. He had no reason at all to drop the ball on this case. Is it really that hard to believe, or in fact unreasonable to believe that there is reasons why he didn't do certain things both prior to trial or at trial... because he was looking out for the best interestes of the client.

Mulder couldn't even keep Darlie, a white, pretty, well-to-do, somewhat sympathetic woman off death row. That's not a strong performance...
Mulder couldn't do it because the evidence was piled up against her... not because he didn't turn on the 'Richard Gere in Chicago Razzle Dazzle'. No matter how good a defense attorney you may be- if the evidence is against your client it's against your client.

And I don't think Darlie was sympathetic at all. From all reports no one in the court-room was able to relate to her stoney-faced appearance throughout the entire trial. Very few people were able to relate to the way she behaved in the days and weeks after the murders. I don't think she was a sympathetic witness at all. In fact I think Mulder had his work cut out for him big-time when it came to her.

Personally, I have no problem with the prosecution or the defense preparing witnesses for trial - whether it be accomplished through a "meeting" or "mock trial" or whatever... I just question the gathering of witnesses together at the hotel on the eve of trial to further "prepare" them. At that point, I'm not sure how much actual "preparation" could take place - not the right place, not enough time. It seems to me, the purpose of that get together was not so much actual preparation as it was psychological encouragement...
Pyschological encouragement to what? Lie? Conspire to put an innocent woman in jail? Do you think that Mulder just let his own witnesses turn up on the day without going over their testimony with them either earlier that day or the night before?

And even if the prosectution had an underhanded motive (and I don't see how you can leap to that conclusion) how do you go from that to the testimony of all these people being unreliable?

Do you think Darlie knew enough about forensic science to know that doctors could determine that the slash on her throat was made by someone using their left hand?

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything here- but yes- I don't think it is rocket science to realise that a cut you would make with your left hand would look quite different to a cut you would make with your right. You've only got to mimic the actions to realise that.

Why, if Darlie butchered her sons, were there only 4 spots of blood on her nightshirt?

Because, as per the testimony, the boys wounds were not spurting blood out. They oozed blood (it was only when Darin did CPR that he claims Devon's wound started spraying blood). Furthermore those blood spots are entirely consistent with someone making overhand stabbing motions with a bloody knife.

And I'm not sure how you can say that Darlie's defense team didn't try to follow up on the state's theory about the blood drops since Bevel is cross examined at least 3 times in his testimony, and at great length each time, about the blood drops and the experiments he did to try and replicate them (and the CPR expirated blood scenario).

What motive was there for Darlie to murder her children?

I think this weakens your argument. The prosecutions weakest point in the case was motive (IMHO) and Mulder certainly pursued that angle- both directly and by discrediting all the motives which the prosecution put forward. The evidence convicted Darlie despite the difficulty with understand motive (which was not necessary to prove). Mulder and his team did everything they could to prove that Darlie didn't have motive. They didn't simply ignore the issue.

What about the black car that several witnesses saw?
The black car which was thoroughly searched on the night or the random black cars driving down the street that suddenly became suspicious? And for the record Mulder did try to follow the lead of the black/dark cars - Vol 41 and 42 for example.

What is the exact timeline for the murder of the children, placement of the sock, the self-infliction of wounds and the staging of the crime scene?

It was shown in court that Darlie could have quite easily done all of this in the time period she had. Mulder refuted as best he could in cross examination regarding the paramedics, the 911 call etc. Again, he didn't just ignore it. And on the topic- there actually wasn't a lot of staging done at all. There was a fair amount of clean up down in the kitchen sink but staging after the fact is pretty much limited to knocking over the coffee table and lamp shade (and who knows but that may have happened during the commission of the crime anyway).

Did you know that there were similar break-ins in the Dallas area prior to this one? Break-ins where an intruder took a sock from the home and placed it in the victim's mouth...
More info please. Are you referring to the woman who wrote the affidavit not long ago?

Why didn't Mulder do a better job of investigating some of the prosecution star witnesses? Why is it that we've come to learn that the fiber expert (the one who testified he found screen fibers on one of the knives) is actually a mentally unstable alcoholic whose work was unreliable, to say the least...

Oh boy. Now you really have hit one of my buttons.

Could you please give us your evidence for saying that Charlies Linch was a mentally unstable alcoholic whose work (specifically regarding the Routier case) was unreliable to say the least. You know you just accused me of making inflammatory statements but I'm pretty certain that's the most inflammatory one I have heard so far. In fact it probably borders on slander.

There is absolutely no evidence that Charlies Linch was mentally unstable specifically at the time of the Routier trial. Nor is there any evidence that he was abusing alcohol at the time (I wish I could find the article from a few years back about him but from memory his committment for alcoholism was a number of years before- and was brought on during his work at the site of an air disaster). Linch claims that he was definitely not drinking at the time of the Routier trial. And there is absolutely NO evidence to suggest that his work on the Routier trial was unreliable. Period.

If you want to make claims like that about someone you'll need to back it up with some facts.

I could go on, but I think I've made my point... There were lots of areas ripe for exploitation by Mulder (see the Menendez trial) - areas that could have amounted to reasonable doubt if properly presented. Mulder didn't, IMO, do it - not effectively anyway.

Well we will have to agree to disagree because in my reading of the transcripts darlie's defense team did follow up and present on all these leads you have mentioned.
 
Fritzy's Mom said:
As for hiring another attorney, there are a few I can think of who probably would have done a better job than Mulder - the facts of this case just aren't, IMO, overwhelming enough to overcome the burden of reasonable doubt... She should have hired Rae Carruth's attorney - that guy was impressive!
She should have stuck with her public defenders.

Even elementary school students who haven't had the experience of Mock Trials

couldn't have done any worse than her $100,000+ defense.
 
accordn2me said:
She should have stuck with her public defenders.

Even elementary school students who haven't had the experience of Mock Trials

couldn't have done any worse than her $100,000+ defense.


That's ridiculous. An attorney can only do so much. Remember the Westerfield trial?????? David, as Darlie did before him, was his OWN WORST enemy.

How about if we quit blaming the EMS team, the cops, the nurses, the doctor, the friends, the neighbors, the experts, the FBI, the attorneys, the jury, the media (who did I leave out?) . . . and START putting the blame where it belongs - directly on the shoulders of Darlie Routier.
 
Jeana (DP) said:
That's ridiculous. An attorney can only do so much. Remember the Westerfield trial?????? David, as Darlie did before him, was his OWN WORST enemy.

How about if we quit blaming the EMS team, the cops, the nurses, the doctor, the friends, the neighbors, the experts, the FBI, the attorneys, the jury, the media (who did I leave out?) . . . and START putting the blame where it belongs - directly on the shoulders of Darlie Routier.

And they all said Amen.
 
Dani_T said:
And they all said Amen.


Thank you~!!!!


For our friends (from the link):

Participants:

Judge (could be a visitor to class with legal experience), prosecutor(s) or plaintiff's attorney(s) in a civil case defense attorney(s), Witnesses for the prosecution, witnesses for the defense, bailiff (swears in witnesses and marks evidence), Jury composed of twelve persons, one of whom should be named jury foreman; alternates may also be designated.


IF ONLY PROSECUTION WITNESSES ARE THERE; OR
IF ONLY DEFENSE WITNESSES ARE THERE,
its called
WITNESS PREPARATION

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
 
Fritzy's Mom said:
[/color]

Do you think for one second that had Darlie been some derelict drug addict who had been stabbed in an alley Denise would have notes at home in her safe about the "weird" story she was telling? Of course not. She saw Darlie, a white, well-to-do, pretty suburban housewife who was suspected of stabbing her children, and she KNEW it was going to be big news. Denise Faulk wanted to make sure she was included in the story......
What difference does that make if she wrote only her observations down without intending to railroad Darlie? Isn't the issue whether the nurse's notes were factual or not, not whether she had a right to write them down or not?

Fritzy's Mom said:
[/color]



Not when the police have told you that that mother is a suspect...then, of course, everything she does is called into question. If the police had not let on that Darlie was a suspect, Denise would probably have written notes about how pitiful and devastated Darlie was. Her intent here was to make herself important in this case, and nothing more.........


How do you know that the police told her that Darlie was a suspect? I don't think Denise was even on duty when Darlie was first questioned by police, and I don't recall any testimony about the police telling any of the nurses that Darlie was a suspect. So on what are you basing your position on this on?

Fritzy's Mom said:
[/color]

Darlie was on trial for her life. Denise's BS, nosy, "I'm going to make this all about me" attitude from the get-go was inexcusable. She swore to God to tell the truth. Mulder should have left her in tears.



Because that's what the police told them...



That's not the point!!! The point is that nobody at Baylor needed to have this type of in-depth information!!!



The fact that they didn't let Darlie in on their suspicions means nothing (you know that!)... ......
It seems to me that your argument is one that promotes covering up what a witness might see and hear unless he or she is a cop and it IS her job to investigate. I don't get your complaint about Denise unless you are arguing for the defense, who would have an interest in none of the nurses being allowed to testify about anything they saw that was not favorable to the defendant. I hope that is not your position.



Fritzy's Mom said:
But it did play a part in her conviction. All this kind of stuff adds up... ......
It is supposed to. I don't get your concern about it. I am sure not all the jurors viewed it in the same way. I, for one, did not put much emphasis on most of what the nurses had to say about Darlie's emotions. Mostly because it didn't matter. She could have been in hysterics and it wouldn't prove whether she killed them or not. Susan Smith gave the best tearful performance I have ever seen and she confessed to killing her children. I thought the importance of the nurses' testimonies was their quotes about what Darlie said, their observations of family members and her interactions with them, and how those things compared to what other witnesses said who had no connection to the nurses. Some of what they said was supported that way.

[/color]So the fact that a nurse might have wanted to gain her ten minutes of fame on the heels of a local high profile murder case didn't really matter to me. That is a side issue that can't determine guilt or innocence.

Fritzy's Mom said:
[/color]
It's hard to judge just how credible some of this testimony was, though - reading it is certainly not the same as seeing it in person. Like I said (on paper anyway) Mulder just seemed to let too many of these people get off the stand without doing much to explore their motivations and bias. ......
It is okay for a witness to believe someone guilty or innocent. Attys cannot control that. What matters is the truthfulness of their testimony. We don't always get that, but most people do a pretty good job seeing thru the smoke screens some witnesses throw up. I doubt very seriously that any witness could sway all 12 jurors with gossipy slantings or biased observations. I expect that some of the jurors threw out some of the nurses' statements just like I did.

See, I just didn't see that much testimony that was that devasting to her character...

Aside from the medical testimony (which I almost entirely discount), there was:

1. the story about her teasing/being mean to Barbara Jovell's mother;
2. the suicide drama; and
3. the silly string incident.

The first two are pretty much no big deal - we've all been mean at one time or another in our lives and lots of women do the suicide thing to get attention (to Darlie's credit here, I do think she had some genuine postpartum depression going on). And, since the silly string incident occurred after the stabbings, it really should not have been considered as part of her character that led up to the stabbings (does that make sense?!)..........[/QUOTE]
Yes.

Fritzy's Mom said:
Yet, the silly string video is what killed her...
Did it? The jury did look at it several times, so they were looking for something. My guess is they were looking for some sign of grief. Maybe a flicker of pain in her eyes, and they didn't find it. What was far more telling to me was the TV interview made right after the silly string party. No flickers there either.

But all that aside, the bottom line in murder cases is always the forensics. What did you do with the blood evidence against her? The screen fiber in the knife block?
 
Fritzy's Mom said:
Well, Mulder should not have allowed this to happen...Most defendants want to take the stand and proclaim their innocence. Good defense attorneys convince them not to when it will be detrimental...No matter how insistent Darlie was, Mulder should have been more so!
It is the client's choice, not the attys. The atty can only advise, but if his client insists he has no choice but to accept it.
 
Fritzy's Mom said:
Not exactly a "master," I'd say...Instead of worrying about Cron's eyesight, he should have been focusing on the unstable mental health and alcoholism of Mr. fiber expert...
Let me see if I get this right? You don't need any evidence that he got anything wrong, but just by virtue that he suffered in his lifetime from alcoholism, the court should throw all of his evidence out?
 
Mary456 said:
Jeana (DP) How about if we quit blaming the EMS team said:
The 911 operator. Geez, DP, how could you overlook her incompetence? That woman was telephonically challenged :rolleyes:

Barry Dickey <--- just a glorified DJ
James Cron <--- 'he made up in mind in 2 minutes. No make that 20 seconds'
Charles Linch <--- mentally unstable alcoholic who couldn't do his job
Tom Bevel <--- Tom who? I ignored his whole testimony
 

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