By Accident Or On Purpose Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey?

[EtherealMoonRose]

If one is looking at this as a child murdering another child then stats are all fine and well but only if murder was the intent. These stats mean nothing if this was an accident caused by a child with some behavioral problems or emotional problems, or maybe just POed and lashing out.

There are so many ways to look at this case but only one of them is right and we will probably never know which one it is. I can remember when BDI was so taboo you couldn't even whisper about it and it seems that that's the way people like it. Theres only one theory ever allowed here and that's PDI. BDI the new IDI.

or at least that's how this forum reads now.

This.

Patsy was so hung up on 'image' that she didn't want to be seen as a mother of a son who killed his sister by accident.

Normal people would have called an ambulance.

IF Burke actually did do this by accident, ofcourse. I guess we'll never know.

 

[s(he) be(lie)ve(d)]

I have been a BDI since the very beginning. However, its a fine line between BDI and PDI, a line I have crossed over the years. That's why I find myself believing that we cant separate one from the other. Both mother and son played the biggest rolls in this tragedy.

For what its worth I don't believe that JR was physically abusing JBR. I also think he showed up late to the scene that night. Which then opens the door for two stagings. Its a merry go-round, where we get off nobody knows.

 

[Userid]

If one is looking at this as a child murdering another child then stats are all fine and well but only if murder was the intent. These stats mean nothing if this was an accident caused by a child with some behavioral problems or emotional problems, or maybe just POed and lashing out.

There are so many ways to look at this case but only one of them is right and we will probably never know which one it is. I can remember when BDI was so taboo you couldn't even whisper about it and it seems that that's the way people like it. Theres only one theory ever allowed here and that's PDI. BDI the new IDI.

or at least that's how this forum reads now.

Completely disagree. That's a convenient way for people to dismiss facts and statistics.

Murder does not need to be the intent in order to abide by facts in this case. Adults commit accidental murders (particularly involving children) as well, and are much more inclined to do so than children, as the facts/stats demonstrate.

 

[Tadpole12]

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[Tadpole12]

NE
http://www.nationalenquirer.com/photos/jonbenet-ramsey-murder-childhood-drawings/

Shocking Analysis!
JonBenet Ramsey’s Tragic Childhood Drawings
Experts see cries for help in beauty queen's art!
Oct 3, 2017

"Murdered child beauty queen JonBenét Ramsey
made a chilling plea in the months before her death,
begging for someone to end the physical abuse
she’d endured — in crayon!

That's the expert opinion of a team of specialists
convened by The National ENQUIRER to analyze
never-before-seen drawings by the slain six-year-old
to which The ENQUIRER gained exclusive access.

The team concluded that the drawings suggest
JonBenét had been sexually violated prior to her
death on Christmas Day 1996."

“Everything a child does in a drawing sends out a
message,” said renowned mental health professional
Dr. Gilda Carle. And the message JonBenét was
sending, quite simply, was: “Save me!” JonBenét
made the drawings while in first grade at the
Boulder Valley School in Boulder, Colo.,
in 1996 — and they’ve remained there until
The ENQUIRER discovered them."

"“All these things together would make me ask further
about any type of sexual abuse, exposure to sexuality
or inappropriate behaviors that she could have been
exposed to at her young age,” Dr. Menzise told
The ENQUIRER. The mental health professionals’ findings
reinforce charges by investigators that JonBenét suffered
“prior vaginal intrusions” months before her lifeless body
was found in the basement of her home."
(see drawings)

 

[s(he) be(lie)ve(d)]

Userid, Thank you for your response! I see what you’re saying and after taking the time to read further back in this thread, I can say that I understand where you are coming from. I however disagree with you and it’s okay to disagree. Debate with respect is a beautiful thing, so let us agree to disagree. Now for my point of view.

There’s an old saying “There are three types of lies, there are lies, there are damn lies, and there are statistics.” I am a believer of this. I also don’t think facts and statistics are the same thing and both are subjective.

Facts are only facts when they can be 100% proven. Anything other than that, is simply another’s opinion and not fact at all.

Fact: Johnbenet was murdered.

Opinion: BDI, PDI, JDI, and IDI. That is until one of themis 100% proven to have done it. Basing any opinion on statistics is still just opinion and not fact.

You accused me of using convenience when I wrote about murder and accidents. I however think it’s convenient to only sight one set of stats or cherry picking the statsused. What about the stats on family abuse or aggression? Or one study showing that only 60% of family’s report abuse at home and yet another study states that it 53%. What about the stats put out in 1996 by The Bureau of Justice showing that 1 in 5 murdered children is murdered by another child. Or how about this, most sibling abuse is not reported and its estimated to be in higher numbers then spousal abuse? There are studies and stats that show sibling incest is far more common then we know or even imagine. Taking all of this into consideration I personally think that any stats on child killers are incomplete therefor unreliable and or subjective.

The statistics you site are based upon the entire group and not a case by case basis also rendering them not well researched and how can they be if families aren’t reporting.

Having said all of that, I would have to say highly improbable does not mean impossible. If statistics said it only happened once then that’s enough to know that it could happen again.

 

[Userid]

^ So then your answer is to completely disregard all of the actual studies we have on the subject? That's throwing the baby out with the bath water.

There really is no cherry picking here: parents are the most likely culprits when it comes to child murders. This is a fact and it's undeniable. Does that prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it's PDI/JDI? No, but it provides a basis for those stances to stand on, unlike BDI (your 1 in 5 stat doesn't apply here, because it isn't sibling to sibling, but child to child; and child can be up to age 12). It's possible this is the exception to the rule, and yes nothing is impossible, but the odds are heavily stacked against it, as the facts and stats clearly show.

 

[Swirlz]

What about the stats put out in 1996 by The Bureau of Justice showing that 1 in 5 murdered children is murdered by another child.

Can you provide a link? I have never, ever heard anything like this. I am honestly interested.

 

[questfortrue]

Can you provide a link? I have never, ever heard anything like this. I am honestly interested.

The statistic was from a prison inmate survey. Read carefully, as it is description of 'victimization,' not only or specifically murders. It is not a survey from the general population.

It is also certainly true that we can't depend on statistics for proving the responsibility of anyone in the home.

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/CVVOATV.PDF

 

[s(he) be(lie)ve(d)]

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/CVVOATV.PDF

Child Victimizers: Violent Offenders and their Victims

Jointly published with the Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention

By Lawrence A. Greenfeld Statistician, Bureau of Justice Statistics

March 1996, NCJ-15325

Children under the age of 18 accounted for 11% of all murder victims in the United States in 1994. Nearly half of the 2,660 child victims were between ages 15 and 17. About 1 in 5 child victims were known to be killed by another child

 

[s(he) be(lie)ve(d)]

Questfortrue,

Not being snarky but how much of it did you read? Below is the forward from the report. Not all of the data was collected from prisoners. LOL, look at me defending statistics! OMG, What's happening to me?

Foreword

This report, utilizing the responses of a nationally representative sample of State prisoners, together with homicide data assembled by law enforcement agencies.

This is also a snippet from the report.

Children under the age of 18 accounted for 11% of all murder victims in the United States in 1994. Nearly half of the 2,660 child victims were between ages 15 and 17. About 1 in 5 child victims were known to be killed by another child.

Its referencing all child murder victims in 1994. Not all victims found justice with an arrest, so clearly its using data from other sources besides prisoners as all victims did not find justice with an arrest and conviction.

 

[s(he) be(lie)ve(d)]

Userid

I don’t have a problem with studies. My problem is with statistics being used as proof of fact, because they aren’t. They are not the same thing. Let me see if I can show you what I mean.

Example:

A statistical study is done on two police officers, each works in a different town in the same state. Officer #1 gives out 100 tickets a month and officer #2 gives out 10. Statistics show officer #1 is a real *advertiser censored*. But, upon further research we learn that officer #1 works in a town of 100,000 and officer #2 works in a town of 300. The facts disprove the prior statistics.

Which brings me to this…. Sibling on sibling abuse is the most under reported crime committed in this nation, making any statistics given inaccurate.

Facts About Sibling Abuse​

. https://hareachingout.wordpress.com/sibling-abuse-the-unspoken-threat/

Despite the lack of attention it receives, sibling abuseis not only real but significant in both impact and scope. It is actually more common than parent-child abuse. According to the New York Times, “Nationwide,sibling violence is by far the most common form of family violence, occurring four to five times as frequently as spousal or parental child abuse.” I tis estimated by Social WorkToday that “the rate of sibling incest may be five times the rate of parent-child sexual abuse.” Psychology Today reports that other forms of sibling abuse are also common:

Despite being so common, sibling abuse is not frequently studied nor does it get discussed on a large scale in the same way that parent-child abuse does. It is often excused or minimized with lines like,“They’re just kids” or “That’s something kids do.” Even sibling sexual abuse gets brushed aside, as Social WorkToday points out: “Sibling sexual abuse has been dismissed as ‘child’s play’ in many cases and/or as a normal aspect of sexual development.” Psychology Today adds that, “There are few studies of sibling abuse and compounding the limited data is the fact that abuse among siblings is a well-kept secret. It can remain ongoing and undetected for years. The victim is usually younger and not as strong and, thus helpless to fight back.”

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/singletons/200910/the-dark-side-siblings

http://www.socialworktoday.com/archive/111312p18.shtml

https://www.aamft.org/imis15/AAMFT/Content/Consumer_Updates/Sibling_Violence.aspx

I think BR was abusing his sister in every way. I think it got out of hand that night and he hit his sister. I don’t think he meant to kill her, in fact the blow hadn’t killed her. The strangulation did during the parents staging/s of the scene. I don’t believe that he was a homicidal maniac. I rather think he was a troubled boy who needed help and lashed out.

 

[questfortrue]

Questfortrue,

Not being snarky but how much of it did you read? Below is the forward from the report. Not all of the data was collected from prisoners. LOL, look at me defending statistics! OMG, What's happening to me?

Foreword

This report, utilizing the responses of a nationally representative sample of State prisoners, together with homicide data assembled by law enforcement agencies.

This is also a snippet from the report.

Children under the age of 18 accounted for 11% of all murder victims in the United States in 1994. Nearly half of the 2,660 child victims were between ages 15 and 17. About 1 in 5 child victims were known to be killed by another child.

Its referencing all child murder victims in 1994. Not all victims found justice with an arrest, so clearly its using data from other sources besides prisoners as all victims did not find justice with an arrest and conviction.

I’m sure you wouldn’t be snarky.

Yes, I read the page. I also read the preceding chart. I did go a step further to investigate the ‘stats’ on ‘child’ homicide from the FBI website. The link is to recent statistics from 2011. https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u....les/expanded-homicide-data-table-5/output.xls

Since you focused on the FBI stats in that report, vs. the study of violent prisoners, I should mention my problem with the report and why I told folks to read it carefully. The FBI classifies ‘children’ as those under the age of 18. There is a significant difference between a child of 9/10 and a 16/17 year old in terms of understanding and perpetrating murder. It is confusing in that most people do not consider children to be teenagers, but rather those who are likely prepubescent or younger.

Something else the FBI statistics in that report omit is other pertinent information such as average age of the victim ‘child’ and whether the offender and the victim were related. The report goes on to generalize in saying that 1 in 5 murders of young children were perpetrated by a family member. It becomes somewhat irrelevant since we don’t know the average age of an offender – was it 13/14/15 or was it a parent? (Family member does not omit parental involvement.) The report only gives a framework and, imho, it is compiled in such a manner that noone even needs it to back up an argument about who was responsible for JB's death.

If BR killed his sister, either accidentally or on purpose, it looks to contribute to a very small percentage of family homicides. (To reiterate - the FBI's definition of 'child' is someone under 18 years of age.) Also, the statistics on sexual assault by a child age 9/10 or younger is quite low. It’s 1.5 to 5%.** This doesn’t negate your argument at all, that even if rare, it happens. I just felt that this report was confusing, and folks discussing age and statistics here are intelligent to know that one doesn’t even need the statistics to point a theory to BR or PR.

**The statistics on sexual abuse by a sibling vary considerably and are unproven. According to one of the foremost experts in the country on incest, the woman who trains therapists to treat survivors of incest, uncles and fathers offend at a higher percentage than do siblings. But her caveat is that sibling molestation frequently goes unreported, so sibling statistics obviously can’t be backed up by any scientific studies.

 

[Swirlz]

Statistics alone can be limiting. Mostly because statistics are based on incidents reported, and what has been found to be the cause, not often including unresolved incidents either.

As for statistics in the USA, it is statistically more likely to be a known person rather than a stranger and also statistically more likely to be a parent than a brother. https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u....w-enforcement/expanded/expanded-homicide-data

In 2015, parents were responsible for 77.7 percent of child abuse or neglect fatalities. https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubPDF...en die each year from child abuse or neglect?

According to statistics from the U.S. Department of Justice https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/193411.pdf (page 3) in 1997, there were less than ten homicides by children 10 and under.

 

[Userid]

Userid

I don’t have a problem with studies. My problem is with statistics being used as proof of fact, because they aren’t. They are not the same thing. Let me see if I can show you what I mean.

Example:

A statistical study is done on two police officers, each works in a different town in the same state. Officer #1 gives out 100 tickets a month and officer #2 gives out 10. Statistics show officer #1 is a real *advertiser censored*. But, upon further research we learn that officer #1 works in a town of 100,000 and officer #2 works in a town of 300. The facts disprove the prior statistics.

Which brings me to this…. Sibling on sibling abuse is the most under reported crime committed in this nation, making any statistics given inaccurate.

Facts About Sibling Abuse​

. https://hareachingout.wordpress.com/sibling-abuse-the-unspoken-threat/

Despite the lack of attention it receives, sibling abuseis not only real but significant in both impact and scope. It is actually more common than parent-child abuse. According to the New York Times, “Nationwide,sibling violence is by far the most common form of family violence, occurring four to five times as frequently as spousal or parental child abuse.” I tis estimated by Social WorkToday that “the rate of sibling incest may be five times the rate of parent-child sexual abuse.” Psychology Today reports that other forms of sibling abuse are also common:

Despite being so common, sibling abuse is not frequently studied nor does it get discussed on a large scale in the same way that parent-child abuse does. It is often excused or minimized with lines like,“They’re just kids” or “That’s something kids do.” Even sibling sexual abuse gets brushed aside, as Social WorkToday points out: “Sibling sexual abuse has been dismissed as ‘child’s play’ in many cases and/or as a normal aspect of sexual development.” Psychology Today adds that, “There are few studies of sibling abuse and compounding the limited data is the fact that abuse among siblings is a well-kept secret. It can remain ongoing and undetected for years. The victim is usually younger and not as strong and, thus helpless to fight back.”

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/singletons/200910/the-dark-side-siblings

http://www.socialworktoday.com/archive/111312p18.shtml

https://www.aamft.org/imis15/AAMFT/Content/Consumer_Updates/Sibling_Violence.aspx

I think BR was abusing his sister in every way. I think it got out of hand that night and he hit his sister. I don’t think he meant to kill her, in fact the blow hadn’t killed her. The strangulation did during the parents staging/s of the scene. I don’t believe that he was a homicidal maniac. I rather think he was a troubled boy who needed help and lashed out.

No one is using it as "proof of fact." I've already said as much. We are using it as a basis to build and justify our case/hypothesis.

You're talking about "spinning the stats to support an argument" with your cop analogy., but there is no spinning here; it's a false equivalence, as it pertains to this particular case. Parents are much more likely to be responsible for a child's death than a sibling, let alone a nine year old sibling. You can claim it's "spinning" all you want, but it's not; I don't mean to sound harsh, but it's the truth. If anyone is spinning here, it's the person introducing the "sibling on sibling abuse being under-reported" stat, which really has much less bearing on this particular case, because within that sibling-on-sibling abuse, murder isn't even factored. Although you'd like to spin it that way, we are not talking about just plain "abuse," we are talking about murder.

 

[Cherry]

As a fan of weaponry and garrotes; no one uses a garrote unintentionally.

 

[Userid]

Statistics alone can be limiting. Mostly because statistics are based on incidents reported, and what has been found to be the cause, not often including unresolved incidents either.

As for statistics in the USA, it is statistically more likely to be a known person rather than a stranger and also statistically more likely to be a parent than a brother. https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u....w-enforcement/expanded/expanded-homicide-data

In 2015, parents were responsible for 77.7 percent of child abuse or neglect fatalities. https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubPDF...en die each year from child abuse or neglect?

According to statistics from the U.S. Department of Justice https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/193411.pdf (page 3) in 1997, there were less than ten homicides by children 10 and under.

Wow, very interesting. For me, these stats are much more "cut and dried," particularly that last one pertaining to homicides by children under 10. It's not so much "cherry picking" as it is recognizing the relevance of a particular stat as it pertains to either scenario: a child homicide performed by a parent, or a child homicide performed by a child sibling. The problem is, you won't find any stats that directly pertain to the latter, because of how extremely rare that is, compared to the former -- which speaks volumes right there. I'll say again: that doesn't definitively prove anything one way or the other, but it does make the odds (I stress, the odds) of a BDI scenario all the more astronomical.

 

[archieil]

I will explain your talkings for noobs:

We are talking about statistics of car accidents for a situation when a person was killed by a car in his garden.

Keep in mind most people around are some street cups and they are really believing in this talking.

I am still waiting for the reason why both children was awake knowing they will go to a trip in the morning.

 

[Cottonstar]

As a fan of weaponry and garrotes; no one uses a garrote unintentionally.

The wooden stick was not used to strangle her. It was not used in anyway to kill her.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[s(he) be(lie)ve(d)]

No one is using it as "proof of fact." I've already said as much. We are using it as a basis to build and justify our case/hypothesis.

You're talking about "spinning the stats to support an argument" with your cop analogy., but there is no spinning here; it's a false equivalence, as it pertains to this particular case. Parents are much more likely to be responsible for a child's death than a sibling, let alone a nine year old sibling. You can claim it's "spinning" all you want, but it's not; I don't mean to sound harsh, but it's the truth. If anyone is spinning here, it's the person introducing the "sibling on sibling abuse being under-reported" stat, which really has much less bearing on this particular case, because within that sibling-on-sibling abuse, murder isn't even factored. Although you'd like to spin it that way, we are not talking about just plain "abuse," we are talking about murder.

Userid,

When did Iever accuse you of spinning? I thought Iwas defending my nonbelief in statistics in general. You did call me out on it after all.Lol!

The grand Jury seemed to think abuse played a part in JBR’s death.

Count four said the Ramsey’s "did unlawfully, knowingly, recklessly and feloniously permit a child to be unreasonably placed in a situation which posed a threat of injury to the child's life or health, which resulted in the death of JonBenét Ramsey, a child under the age of sixteen.

"Count seven of the indictment said the Ramsey’s did "unlawfully, knowingly and feloniously render assistance to a person, with intent to hinder, delay and prevent the discovery, detention, apprehension, prosecution, conviction and punishment of such person for the commission of a crime, knowing the person being assisted has committed and was suspected of the crime of murder in the first degree and child abuse resulting in death."

That’s not spin my friend.

Look, I understand that stats are important to you and your theory. I just don’t happen to agree.

Personal story here…

I am raising my 7 years old grandson. He’s been with me for 4 years now. As much as it pains me to admit, his mother was very neglectful amongst other things. He developed some emotional issues that resulted in dangerous acts of violence and rage (he was 3) he hit his 6 years old cousin in the head with a metal pipe, knocking her out and causing her to need 6 stitches on her forehead. He also pushed his 2 years old cousin down a flight of stairs breaking her arm. With hard work and intensive therapy, I now have a little boy who is sensitive,kind, loving and an honor roll student (GPA 4.0) I have greyer hair now LOL. 2 of my grandchildren could have died at the hands of a toddler. Gone unchecked what could he have been capable of at 9?