By Accident Or On Purpose Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey?

[Linda7NJ]

I am still a little confused about the findings on the CBS program regarding this point. They seemed confident in stating that the cellulose found in her vagina was microscopic and could have arrived there innocently. I saw another poster speculate that it could have come from toilet paper?

What I'd like to know is if the cellulose was ever tested against the paintbrush to forensically determine if it came from the paintbrush. Does anyone know if this was ever done? Is this part of how the experts on CBS stated so definitively that a sexual assault did not occur that night that we just didn't see? Is this part of the case evidence that remains confidential?

Otherwise my knowledge of it is that the cellulose was assumed to come from the paintbrush because (1) the autopsy report revealed vaginal trauma, (2) the trauma was caused by something stiff and small, and (3) the paintbrush had been broken into three pieces yet only two pieces were recovered. However, if that test hasn't been done, then the paintbrush assault remains a theory yet to be proven.

When they (briefly) discussed this on the show, I think that, more than anything, changed the game. If we take an assault with the paintbrush out of the equation, then we don't have to believe that either Burke was molesting his sister or that JR or PR did that to their daughter as part of the staging. IMO, this is critical for at least three reasons:
(1) It conclusively disproves the idea that this was committed by a pedophile and all the crazy IDI theories that go with that.
(2) It further supports the theory that JBR's death was accidental as opposed to premeditated.
(3) It makes RDI theories all the more plausible because you don't have to believe that at least one of them was a sexual deviant or were sick enough to stage a sexual assault.

I should probably state that I am one of the few who aren't sold on the idea that JBR was being molested or was ever sexually assaulted. I know it's a sad fact of reality that this happens, and that experts on incest have found enough reasons to consider the idea plausible or even likely. But the forensic basis for sexual theories comes from interpretation of the wording of the autopsy report, and I've not seen a strong enough scientific argument one way or another on it to convince me that it definitely did or didn't happen. I also think that our perception of JBR and how her family treated her was tinged by such heavy media coverage of her beauty pageant life and the assumptions (right or wrong) that we make about people who get their daughters involved in that at a young age.

Again, this is where having her medical records could be so helpful!

Let me be clear, I believe it was one poke. Like a cat plays with its prey.


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[sloane7777]

Has there ever been any other case where an accident occurred and family tried to cover it up as a murder? The only time I can recall is the defense in Casey Anthony case, which i thought was insane.. no one covers up an accident..but now it seems the same idea is being offered as a theory in JonBenet's murder.
Another reason, I am having trouble with the accident theory is at what point did the cover up start? after the head blow? or after the strangulation? If one or both found her after the head blow..how did they give up on her? how did they jump to the conclusion she was dying? Would the first reaction not be to get help in case their was any chance she could be saved? she still had a heart beat...so why jump to there is no hope?

there was a case ....I will have to google but yes they wanted to save one child that had killed a grandparent or step brother or something ...cant remember ill look

 

[Linda7NJ]

Has there ever been any other case where an accident occurred and family tried to cover it up as a murder? The only time I can recall is the defense in Casey Anthony case, which i thought was insane.. no one covers up an accident..but now it seems the same idea is being offered as a theory in JonBenet's murder.
Another reason, I am having trouble with the accident theory is at what point did the cover up start? after the head blow? or after the strangulation? If one or both found her after the head blow..how did they give up on her? how did they jump to the conclusion she was dying? Would the first reaction not be to get help in case their was any chance she could be saved? she still had a heart beat...so why jump to there is no hope?

At what point the staging started doesn't matter to me. We know the killer lived there and so did those that staged


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[ZhaZhaHa]

I think Burke and on purpose but didn't intend to kill her. For the first time I felt bad for the parents (briefly, until it dawned on me that a coverup was done, a parent staged their child instead of calling an ambulance to see if there was still any hope for their child). I imagine Patsy DID come down to make coffee and found out then what had happened. I wonder if Burke went back to bed or was still there with her. I do feel so bad for Patsy in that moment. But then of course that fades. They should have called police and dealt with Burke (who they wouldn't have "lost").

 

[Heymom]

Yes, and agreed. But it is not universally accepted that the penetration was sexually motivated. Nor is it agreed that the penetration had to be digital - it could have also been caused by douching or suppositories used in vaginitis treatments.

My point here is that I keep the possibility of sexual assault and molestation open in my mind, but there is enough doubt out there to keep me from thinking that it is the only explanation for her prior injury(ies). The conclusion from the CBS documentary that there is no forensic evidence of a sexual assault occurring that night, despite what we've believed for years, leads me even further away from the sexual assault aspect of this case, at least in respect to it having something to do with JBR's death.

I believe that they might have gone into the molestation in the 2 hours that were cut, but if not, then they had a reason for leaving that out. Maybe that was too controversial and they knew it would turn viewers off, or maybe that's where Lin Wood threatened the most intensely?

No one douches a 6 year old, nor would she be treated for vaginitis with a vaginal suppository. If she had a yeast infection or any other kind of adult female problem, then something else was going on, and that is why the medical records were suppressed.

From what Chief Kolar said and also what he didn't say, I think there is more than ample reason to believe this problem had started the sequence of events that ended on December 26th.

 

[reintarnation]

I believe that they might have gone into the molestation in the 2 hours that were cut, but if not, then they had a reason for leaving that out. Maybe that was too controversial and they knew it would turn viewers off, or maybe that's where Lin Wood threatened the most intensely?

No one douches a 6 year old, nor would she be treated for vaginitis with a vaginal suppository. If she had a yeast infection or any other kind of adult female problem, then something else was going on, and that is why the medical records were suppressed.

From what Chief Kolar said and also what he didn't say, I think there is more than ample reason to believe this problem had started the sequence of events that ended on December 26th.

While no reasonable person douches a 6 year old, I've always thought it possible that PR could have been douching her to clean up after toileting issues. We do have the housekeeper stating that PR and JBR had prolonged periods of time in the bathroom together and that JBR screamed during those times - that is, if we believe the housekeeper's statements.

We have to keep in mind that douching was a much more common practice in the 90s than it is today, since now there has been so much research showing that it causes yeast infections and is completely unnecessary for keeping the vagina clean. But in the 90s, there were actually commercials for douches. I know my mother did it and advised me to do it when I was a teen in the 90s (luckily for me, I refrained).

Why do you say that she wouldn't have been treated with a suppository? That is a common treatment for vaginal infections to ease the itchiness. If she got those infections - through whatever cause (antibiotics, douching, molestation, etc.) - PR could have picked those up over the counter to control JBR's itching.

Either douching or suppository involves the insertion of a small, stiff object into the vaginal canal.

It's also possible that PR cleaned her violently as a form of corporeal punishment for toileting issues. This is what Steve Thomas and other LE officials as familiar with the case as Kolar is believe.

My overall point is not to say definitively one way or another, but rather to illustrate that there are different possibilities for the vaginal trauma described in the autopsy report.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I don't believe Pasty was physically abusive. If she were there would have been witnesses at pageants! Ever see what those little girls go through getting their hair done?


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[Frigga]

My daughter screamed bloody murder from the age of 7-10 when getting her hair brushed- she has thick straight hair that I kept in a short bob until then. Finally, I had her yell into a pillow while I brushed so the whole house didn't have to be traumatized. It absolutely could have been that. I don't think Patsy was physically abusive either.

 

[Heymom]

Patsy never even spanked either JBR or BR. She wasn't going to douche JonBenet. You don't stick stuff up a 6-year-old's vagina! If something was going on with JonBenet, I believe Patsy would take her to the doctor, and not self-treat.

The simplest explanation is usually the correct one, however difficult it may be to emotionally deal with.

 

[johnjay]

But not "caught." More like, "Gee, I'm still happy about this."

Yep, just like when he was walking out of church at JBR's funeral. I've never seen anything like it in my life and I've seen a lot.

Now you would think someone who loved him, if there is such a person, would sit down with him and explain how his affect comes across to many of us. Of course, with Dr. Phil saying, yes he's odd but normal, that's not likely to happen. And it's not like he seems so broken that he doesn't have a sad mode- he seemed sad when he talked about his mother dying - although he had some odd smiles at her funeral too.

I don't know what to make of him, but I sure do think he's guilty and proud of it, or proud of getting away with it, or proud that his parents loved him enough to do what they did. And I don't know what to make of Dr. Phil either. Does he think we have stupid written across our forehead?

 

[Heymom]

Yep, just like when he was walking out of church at JBR's funeral. I've never seen anything like it in my life and I've seen a lot.

Now you would think someone who loved him, if there is such a person, would sit down with him and explain how his affect comes across to many of us. Of course, with Dr. Phil saying, yes he's odd but normal, that's not likely to happen. And it's not like he seems so broken that he doesn't have a sad mode- he seemed sad when he talked about his mother dying - although he had some odd smiles at her funeral too.

I don't know what to make of him, but I sure do think he's guilty and proud of it, or proud of getting away with it, or proud that his parents loved him enough to do what they did. And I don't know what to make of Dr. Phil either. Does he think we have stupid written across our forehead?

When people say, "Well that is normal for a 9-year-old child," that is total BS. My mother died when I was 10, and I cried a lot, when I found out, at her funeral, when we left the cemetery, and for weeks afterward. I sure didn't laugh or act like nothing had happened. If my sister had died instead of my mother, I'd have been heartbroken.

I used to think Dr. Phil was a straightforward kind of guy, but over the years I've kind of lost respect for him, and this really tears it. Yeah, he asked the questions, but in a perfunctory way, and as if he was giving Burke a wide path out of trouble. I know he must have made money from this interview, which is just more whoring out of JonBenet.

 

[reintarnation]

I don't believe Pasty was physically abusive. If she were there would have been witnesses at pageants! Ever see what those little girls go through getting their hair done?

So if no one outside the home witnesses it, child abuse can't be happening in the home???

 

[Lilibet]

Has there ever been any other case where an accident occurred and family tried to cover it up as a murder? The only time I can recall is the defense in Casey Anthony case, which i thought was insane.. no one covers up an accident..but now it seems the same idea is being offered as a theory in JonBenet's murder.
Another reason, I am having trouble with the accident theory is at what point did the cover up start? after the head blow? or after the strangulation? If one or both found her after the head blow..how did they give up on her? how did they jump to the conclusion she was dying? Would the first reaction not be to get help in case their was any chance she could be saved? she still had a heart beat...so why jump to there is no hope?

Here's what I think FWIW. I agree that it would be very unusual to cover up an accident to make it look like murder. There is too much chance that those doing the coverup could be accused of murder (as the Ramseys were by the public). If either parent had only found JBR unconscious from the head blow, I think they would have called 911 immediately, hoping to save her, and said it was a terrible accident. No one could prove it wasn't. The fact that they covered up tells me that it was clear that she had also been strangled with the garotte, so they knew she was dead and that it wasn't an accident. At that point the coverup to save Burke commenced. While the initial blow to JBR's head may have been an accident, the garotte makes it clear to me that this was not an accident at least from that point on. I really don't see either JR or PR using the garotte in a coverup, especially using part of PR's paintbrush.

Another thought to add...I know it's pretty universally accepted that Patsy wrote the ransom letter. Did anyone ever get handwriting samples from Burke? I really don't think it's beyond the ability of a bright and probably linguistically precocious 10 year old to write. He may have even seen the movies some of the expressions came from. Writing a ransom note seems more like something a ten year old would do than Patsy attempting a coverup. I realize the CBS show considered Patsy the writer and I'm probably defying logic, but I just wonder.

 

[Linda7NJ]

So if no one outside the home witnesses it, child abuse can't be happening in the home???

That's not what I said.




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[Linda7NJ]

Hopping off your post here, hope you don't mind.

I do believe Patsy found her dead, strangled with the cord.

The garrote wasn't functional it was an added touch, by Patsy.
Patsy found her naked from the waist down & paintbrush handle inserted. I think Burke poked her once.
Patsy removed the paintbrush, cleaned her up, redressed her, used the pocketknife found near her to create what she thought was a dramatic adult instrument of death ( she was unaware of the head bash) she broke the paintbrush handle & worked it into the scene - a form of "undoing" like wrapping her in the blanket, wiping her down and re-dressing her and putting on brand new panties



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[reintarnation]

That's not what I said.




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Sorry if I misunderstood or misconstrued, but you said if Patsy was abusive there would have been witnesses at pageants. To me that read like she couldn't have been abusive if other people didn't witness it. Before I misinterpret your words a second time, could you please explain what you meant? Many thanks!

 

[reintarnation]

The garrote wasn't functional it was an added touch, by Patsy.

Actually the garrote was indeed functional. It was attached to the cord that was still imbedded in her neck from the strangulation that caused her death. Strands of her hair were wrapped up in the knot as a result of getting caught during the twisting.

 

[debbiegarcia36]

Actually the garrote was indeed functional. It was attached to the cord that was still imbedded in her neck from the strangulation that caused her death. Strands of her hair were wrapped up in the knot as a result of getting caught during the twisting.

Yes! Someone posted photos of the above on another thread and it was quite gruesome. The cord was very tight. I don't want to think PR could do something like that.

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[LinasK]

Yes, and agreed. But it is not universally accepted that the penetration was sexually motivated. Nor is it agreed that the penetration had to be digital - it could have also been caused by douching or suppositories used in vaginitis treatments.

My point here is that I keep the possibility of sexual assault and molestation open in my mind, but there is enough doubt out there to keep me from thinking that it is the only explanation for her prior injury(ies). The conclusion from the CBS documentary that there is no forensic evidence of a sexual assault occurring that night, despite what we've believed for years, leads me even further away from the sexual assault aspect of this case, at least in respect to it having something to do with JBR's death.

Sorry,:hand: neither douching nor suppositories cause hymen erosion, and digital penetration is still sexual molestation- assault.You are still violated without your consent. I know of what I speak, I've been a victim of it. They are now redefining rape to include digital molestation, it doesn't have to be penile!!!:banghead::badmood:

 

[LinasK]

Has there ever been any other case where an accident occurred and family tried to cover it up as a murder? The only time I can recall is the defense in Casey Anthony case, which i thought was insane.. no one covers up an accident..but now it seems the same idea is being offered as a theory in JonBenet's murder.
Another reason, I am having trouble with the accident theory is at what point did the cover up start? after the head blow? or after the strangulation? If one or both found her after the head blow..how did they give up on her? how did they jump to the conclusion she was dying? Would the first reaction not be to get help in case their was any chance she could be saved? she still had a heart beat...so why jump to there is no hope?

Because, with both the Ramsey and Anthony families- appearances are everything. It was more important to get the sympathy as grieving parents than the shame it would have brought if she had lived and told someone that one of them caused her harm.