CA - 13 victims, ages 2 to 29, shackled in home by parents, Perris, 15 Jan 2018 #9

[Spice]

IMO. DT is absolutely as guilty as LT. They both have separate issues that sadly converged into this travesty. I don't think he is as shrewd or as cunning as LT. He seems more the nerdy book smart type. I'm sure he wanted to be seen as the patriarchal father figure, the one who enforces the rules. LT was LAZY and self absorbed and she didn't want to deal with feeding the children, educating the children or running a household. When faced with the realization of this, he deluded himself into thinking that "her way" was okay. He could have stopped the abuse of those children at any time. He choose not to.

BBM

But why?



I ask genuinely. With what little we know, and we know that she was a sexual abuse victim according to her family, and he was a 'golden child' who has been largely excused...

Why is she "lazy" and he the deferential husband that went along with it?

I truly am amazed as this narrative.

Or am I?

 

[Midgie2]

If they lived by "traditional" roles in marriage, where one parent is the breadwinner and the other is in charge of the children and home it makes sense. If LT didn't keep up with the children, etc. OR as time went on and it became more difficult for her, he really didn't have a choice other than to leave/divorce her. JMO They are both guilty, equally.

 

[ocgrad]

Omg that video... those poor kids look so uncomfortable. And whoever said it before was right, when he calls up J**** to dance you can tell he is paper thin. Also when he makes a joke the laughing is so forced, I can only imagine what their parents said to "coach" them before going.

You can also see when the youngest girls go up they don't even move and then you see the dads hands instructing to snap and THEN they start clapping

I wondered if they were not allowed to dance or move like dancing and could only snap. Maybe they didn't know how to move to music but the way mom and dad seemed to instruct them was like they were not to follow Elvis but only what they allowed.

 

[Spice]

If they lived by "traditional" roles in marriage, where one parent is the breadwinner and the other is in charge of the children and home it makes sense. If LT didn't keep up with the children, etc. OR as time went on and it became more difficult for her, he really didn't have a choice other than to leave/divorce her. JMO They are both guilty, equally.

This goes beyond "traditional". This is bordering possibly on extremism / fundamentalism.

There are nuances.

Also, if you are a male that agrees and contributes your sperm to having 13 kids, then you do have a choice on to whether or not contribute or "leave/divorce" your family.

So, your wife becomes overwhelmed with the dishes, cooking , child care, expense, or laundry. No choice but to divorce, speaks to male privilege and breeding only, which holds no value in what an actual family consists of.

It's amazing the breadth of understanding or excuses men are afforded.

She did not get pregnant by herself.

And this is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about the torture of children. Not a simply overwhelmed mother and an apparently lazy and entitled father.

Im pretty sure her being bred like a cow had to do with his ego. He doesn't bear responsibility for all of the children he helped create? She was some sort of "evil queen" power, lording over him ?

He couldn't have stopped this? He has no accountability for not having a moral compass and committing atrocities ?

Why? Why is the majority of vitriol focused on LT?

 

[rsd1200]

That's not a happy family. Sad kids, sad mom, disturbing.

Agreed. I think he gave up his pastoring b/c he lost control over LT. He felt he'd failed. She'd run off with DT and was now a loose woman, so to speak, in his eyes. Might as well have her marry him to save some face for him. I do not get a positive vibe off him at all. People say he was a nice man, but people also say that about serial killers.

 

[illyana]

More than a thousand crimes of child abuse should result in a mandatory Federal death sentence. And anyone in the way of that, any lawyer trying to grab fame and clients by defending the indefensible, should be locked up, stripped of their law degree and assets.

 

[Midgie2]

But this goes beyond "traditional". This is bordering possibly on extremism / fundamentalism.

There are nuances.

Also, if you are a male that agrees and contributes your sperm to having 13 kids, then you do have a choice on to whether or not contribute or "leave/divorce" your family. If

So, your wife becomes overwhelmed with the dishes, cooking , child care, expense, or laundry. No choice but to divorce, speaks to male privilege and breeding only, which holds no value in what an actual family consists of.

It's amazing the breadth of understanding or excuses men are afforded.

She did not get pregnant by herself.

And this is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about the torture of children. Not a simply overwhelmed mother and an apparently lazy and entitled father.

Im pretty sure her being bred like a cow had to do with his ego. He doesn't bear responsibility for all of the children he helped create? She was some sort of "evil queen" power, lording over him ?

He couldn't have stopped this? He has no accountability for not having a moral compass and committing atrocities ?

Why? Why is the majority of vitriol focused on LT?

LT's sister stated that LT had always said she wanted 12 kids. That it was something LT's Grandma talked about.

 

[Spice]

LT's sister stated that LT had always said she wanted 12 kids. That it was something LT's Grandma talked about.

And DT's mother said that "God Called On Him " to have so many children.

LT was 16 years old when he signed her out of school and the police got involved. He was in his 20's.

She was a child.

Why is she the failure and he the passive one?

That flies in the face of almost every single religion out there and we all know it.

The woman is the vessel for the man's calling. And she better deliver according to the patriarchal narrative or she's the scapegoat to his failure.

I didn't make it up, it's the way it is and always has been since the beginning of time.

Lather . Rinse. Repeat.

 

[Lilibet]

More than a thousand crimes of child abuse should result in a mandatory Federal death sentence. And anyone in the way of that, any lawyer trying to grab fame and clients by defending the indefensible, should be locked up, stripped of their law degree and assets.

I understand your rage. Except that in countries governed by rule of law and not by autocrats and emotion, everyone is innocent until proven guilty and is entitled to a defense when accused of crimes, no matter how horrendous the crimes and how “indefensible” they are and how obviously guilty the accused is. We can’t punish defense attorneys for doing a necessary job, even in cases like this and even if they are slime balls. Without defense attorneys, these principles of justice could not be upheld. And they must be upheld even for horrible crimes and horrible people or we are spitting on the justice system. It’s not perfect, but it’s all we have at the moment, and if I ever need it, I’m very grateful for it, warts and all.

 

[JerricaBenton]

At about 28.50 on the long youtube video, the eldest boy says his name. We know his names is Jos***, but the name sounds nothing like it, not even a nickname or variant of his name.

 

[JerricaBenton]

This picture shows that there were years they subscribed to fundamentalism "no pants for girls".

That's a bit of stretch from just one photo of them wearing skirts.

 

[TeaTime]

More than a thousand crimes of child abuse should result in a mandatory Federal death sentence. And anyone in the way of that, any lawyer trying to grab fame and clients by defending the indefensible, should be locked up, stripped of their law degree and assets.

That kinda flies in the face of our Constitution which guarantees us a fair and impartial trial by a jury of our peers before the government can take away our liberty, our life or our pursuit of happiness.

A fair trial mandates that the accused is afforded legal counsel to mount a defense against the government's charges.

And, state law is sufficient for punishment, we don't need federal oversight. Less government is better government.

 

[kiwilaura]

For the record:

I will never ever believe that this man was some sort of deferential accomplice. He was aggressive enough to commit sexual predation against one of his daughters on record. In fundie or hyper religious circles , the amount of children a woman bears, is a testament to the man and the man only. And I believe that is what occurred here. This is also indicative of fundamentalist religious views (Christian and otherwise) of women as objects. Things. Things used to give birth and things used for sexual drives, regardless of age.

From the day he signed her out of school and her parents failed to protect her, the beginning of this tragedy was written. DT's family has done NOTHING but rush to excuse him, state that he had so many children because "God called on him", refer to them as a respectable family, and disbelieve the survivors regarding statements of torture and abuse. Despite the fact that DT's relatives actually laid eyes on these malnourished children and were not alarmed.

Meanwhile, LT's family has been all over TV, referring to child sexual abuse, referring to her as "strange' and some disowning her. The contrast is telling of the male privileged environments they both grew up in. Both of them were from patriarchal religions and backgrounds. She was much younger than he was. She appears way more deluded and inappropriate in her affect than he does. He seems to understand that he is "caught" and going to spend the rest of his life in jail. She is googly eyed and smiling inappropreatly in every photo post arrest. She was the one "confused" as to why LE was at her door. She smirked and spat upon arrest. She is full of untreated early child hood trauma.

I do not recall any stories of LT's relatives spending any facetime with these children in recent times. (Other than the sister that lived with them YEARS ago, before they had the majority of their children ). We know that LT's family facetime contact was dissolved over time.Yet his family was allowed to spend time at DL with the entire family. IMO, This speaks to possible isolation and control of LT by DT from the little information that we have.

I am not excusing her. Just trying to understand and contrast the two from what little we know.

No way was David some sort of cowed bystander.

I will eat my hat before I ever believe that.

:moo:

i agree too. I think it’s easy to assume she was the main instigator because her conduct since has been so inappropriate. But I think that probably has a lot to do with her social isolation. Let’s face it, she was also living the weird, restrictive hours. She may have been completely complicit and happy to do that, but I think it’s remdered her unable to function in a socially appropriate way.

 

[Amonet]

Is that little one dressed in white lace "lingerie" esqe tights?

REALLY?

I don't recall which year the eldest was born, but the style of tights were popular in the late 80s, they probably would have been on sale still in the early 90s, or maybe in a used clothing store. I don't see any more than outdated fashion in it.

 

[gitana1]

I do, after running across some info today, even more strongly now, believe, that she and the sisters, were victims of abuse as children. I wasn't sleuthing the extended family, but an article I read, while looking for info on the T parents, led me to kinda believe that LT isn't the only sister who has lived like this. I think those girls may have had a rather difficult time as youths. You can tell something is just kinda, well, it's in the eyes. Maybe she saw DT as her savior. The knight in shining armor that would take her way. If they just wanted to split and get married, they could have done that in TN. I can't post the article b/c TOS.

I do not however, see her as a victim, in her marriage to DT. I see them equally at fault. Although I do think that she has some type of mental health issue. That doesn't mean that she doesn't understand right from wrong, or that DT couldn't have sought out help for her.

It's an odd case. The photo of her and her sisters, the little kids look unhappy. I'm no psych but she seems personality disordered. He seems to be too - and other things as well.

Definitely, child abuse, especially emotional and sexual, can develop a personality disorder in kids. So I'm sure something did happen.

But it likely combined with their overall, underlying personalities and their personal beliefs.

Her family is more vocal about the negative so we hear mostly about the mother's behavior. So it's easier to make her put to be the only villain in this case. Or at least to discuss.

If her sister is right, she was bizarrely sadistic and controlling early on
and seems to have a sick fixation on food and control. She controlled her kids through food and isolation. And seemed to get off on that. The description of her on the Dr. Phil show up was so weird. How she would make eating an elaborate ritual of control. Making her child smile before she ate. And holding her hands, making eye contact and then smiling after she was done before making her go back to isolation. It's freaky and sadistic.

There's a good article on what makes people into child torturers like this. It is very informative. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-42751715

 

[Confusion]

#12 was born in 2005, IIRC.
There's a 10 year age gap between #12 and 13.
It wouldn't make sense for #12 to have been 4 in 2011....they'd have to be 7....
Unless I have the ages messed up (which is quite possible)?

I just wrote what was written on the bankruptcy document, you can believe it or not. She was 4 then, and she should be 10 now. That would make the next three 12, 13 and 15 now, which I believe is correct. If you can find something stating otherwise, it may mean they put the wrong ages on the forms, but I'm sticking with what I've seen for now..

At about 28.50 on the long youtube video, the eldest boy says his name. We know his names is Jos***, but the name sounds nothing like it, not even a nickname or variant of his name.

He said his name was J. D., which is the first letter of his first and his middle name.

 

[Amonet]

I agree with you One Million Percent.

Thank You.

It's important that people realize that to "understand" is not equivalent to "excusing" .

I too believe that LT is an untreated trauma victim raised in a patriarchal religion that she continued to pursue . It's all about "repitition compulsion" for LT.

DT is absolutely the "savior" the "prophet' and the patriarchal ruler. They are both complicit, but his privilege will outweigh hers in their myriad religious circles and the shaping of their psyches.

:moo:

I don't really see him as being that much the 'ruler' of a patriarchal fundamentalist family the way Spice seemed to see it? I can this slant on it though if her need to constantly have a fresh baby played in with his need to appear to be the head of a large patriarchal family?

I see him more as an enabler and faciliator to her demands though. As has been noted through the threads, a lot of the things seem to be LT focused, the Disney theme, the weddings, she seems to have a very strong mind. Most of the patriarchal fundamentalist families with a large number of children are more male-focused, with the mom's focus being more about the family and the children rather than her own likes and dislikes, her own tastes often pale in comparison to his. And I'm not seeing that here.

Neither of them seems downtrodden or like they've been forced into these choices by the other. I wonder if DT is more led into it and goes along with whatever makes LT happy, but that's no excuse and doesn't make me feel he's less culpable than her in any way.

I feel like DT doesn't hate his upbringing in the way that LT does. I think that might have contributed to her shutting out her side of the relatives while DT's relatives have been kept in contact with slightly more, at least insofar as they appear in some of the photos of outings. But I think his side have just been told what they wanted to hear and heard and seen what they wanted to hear and see. From DT's parents' pov they probably do see it as DT being called by God to have many children, but that doesn't necessarily mean that's how DT sees it, and as a couple they don't really fit the mold of the Quiverful family.

Maybe LT's side of the family was also getting a bit nosier, especially the sister having Facetime and asking things about the kids being skinny and why didn't they all go Trick Or Treating instead of only the baby. It's the sisters in a family I think who will talk more about the details of the mothering and child-focused topics while the men are like talking about the weather, sports, and then saying "nice to see you, see you next year (if the women arrange it)". This is major generalization, but I also feel it fits with DT's apparent social awkwardness and his side of the family being more satisfied with seeing a facade that seemed on the surface to match their expectations. LT's family seem more aware of the problems that can happen in families, divorce, abuse, etc. I think they'd have great sympathy if LT was the victim of an abusive husband, but I don't think they'd have any sympathy for her as the abuser, and I think on some level she would have known that.

*I don't look at whose name is on the post I'm reading or quoting! Sorry Spice, I agree more with your second post that I quoted here is all I'm saying. Unless it wasn't you who wrote the post about patriarchial families. I give up. I need more coffee.

 

[kiwilaura]

More than a thousand crimes of child abuse should result in a mandatory Federal death sentence. And anyone in the way of that, any lawyer trying to grab fame and clients by defending the indefensible, should be locked up, stripped of their law degree and assets.

150% disagree. A solid defence is critical to ensuring a fair justice system. Without defense lawyers challenging every step of the way, you will spiral into corruption and false convictions.

I despise what these two have done, but they absolutely need to have a proper defense. It’s one of the cornerstones of the justice system.

MOO

 

[kiwilaura]

I understand your rage. Except that in countries governed by rule of law and not by autocrats and emotion, everyone is innocent until proven guilty and is entitled to a defense when accused of crimes, no matter how horrendous the crimes and how “indefensible” they are and how obviously guilty the accused is. We can’t punish defense attorneys for doing a necessary job, even in cases like this and even if they are slime balls. Without defense attorneys, these principles of justice could not be upheld. And they must be upheld even for horrible crimes and horrible people or we are spitting on the justice system. It’s not perfect, but it’s all we have at the moment, and if I ever need it, I’m very grateful for it, warts and all.

You just said it a million times better than me.

 

[kiwilaura]

And DT's mother said that "God Called On Him " to have so many children.

LT was 16 years old when he signed her out of school and the police got involved. He was in his 20's.

She was a child.

Why is she the failure and he the passive one?

That flies in the face of almost every single religion out there and we all know it.

The woman is the vessel for the man's calling. And she better deliver according to the patriarchal narrative or she's the scapegoat to his failure.

I didn't make it up, it's the way it is and always has been since the beginning of time.

Lather . Rinse. Repeat.

I think people approach this from an emotive point of view. It’s still a strong social feeling that a mother who doesn’t stand up and protect her children has failed. I think people wonder where her maternal instinct was, hence the vitriol.

It absolutely may be misguided, but the justification might just be “she didn’t protect them, therefore it’s all her fault”.

From a logical point of view I totally agree with you. From an emotive point of view I keep thinking “how on earth could she have done this to her own children” and hating her guts.

MOO