CA - 13 victims, ages 2 to 29, shackled in home by parents, Perris, 15 Jan 2018 #9

[rsd1200]

If you consider there are 4 vehicles in the driveway, somehow they kept buying Mustang sports cars, and if you google some of the cell phone numbers that are associated with the private school they defined in California (both names, the current and the one in Murrieta), other vehicles come up that aren't makes and models in the driveway, those are even more cars they recently bought. The repetition makes me wonder how they were able to keep buying more and more without being denied credit....very strange.

The repetition. Sameness. Cycles. Everyone dressed alike. There's something that we're touching on but I am not a psychiatrist.

The way things were for awhile, you could recycle and start over after about two - three years after a bankruptcy, I think. I think I remember someone telling me that there were banks willing to take the risk if you came with no debt and a good job. As opposed to the old rule of about seven years previously, iirc.

 

[rsd1200]

mtn full box

 

[ElizabethAnne]

I've wondered that too, but figured websleuthers were all over that angle and something would have come to light here. If there was credit, cars, homes etc in the kids names, wouldn't that be coming up? I haven't looked myself w/ known names and birthdates.....well, I don't know if I'd know where to start.

You ask some really great questions. The only reason I found the other cars was because I googled the cell phone numbers listed on some of the excel spreadsheets for the private school. I haven't figured out how they could be spending and spending so it is quite possible some of the adult children's identities were used particularly for things like credit cards where purchases would be all on-line. It is all a mystery to me because I don't know how to look. I found the other cars all by accident.

 

[Bill Carson]

O/T I did not know that. I've seen Bill's chart before, but the children/adults who I've known, who were born with Downs, were born closer to my birth era (boomers). I don't seem to see many children with Downs, in our area anymore. Could it be in decline due to better overall health of the parents, or is it just coincidence? Just curious.

I don't really think the Ts had Downs in mind either, but, if they just had to have another baby, and one couldn't perform/conceive, then it's still possible, that they may have sought out a fertility clinic.

Pre-natal testing and abortion. Tests can determine whether a fetus has Down Syndrome as early as 10-weeks into the pregnancy, which is early enough for an abortion.

http://healthland.time.com/2012/02/17/why-down-syndrome-is-on-the-decline/

 

[rsd1200]

I've seen articles that say parents who torture their children are different from the more usual child abuse due to unchecked aggression. There are rather uniquely terrible points to this case, like both biological parents being involved.

I know it can get touchy when defense theory comes up. I'll tread lightly, I hope.

Ianal, but defense option of blame the other falls a little flat for me because of the ongoing nature of the abuses. Unless LT can somehow prove she suffered the same abuses previously. But short of some concrete evidence from the late 80s, early 90s that he beat & chained & starved her, that's gonna be a tough pill for me to swallow. A bitter one, either way.

Defense option of insanity. I think they both have an alphabet soup we could diagnose them with if we were real shrinks, but none of it would equal the kind of break with reality that a not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect requires as far as I understand it.

I've read that parents in these torture cases often admit to some of the abuse. They will minimize it or even blame the victim. So, I'm all for a rigorous defense. But if I'm your lawyer (but ianal, so I'm not) and you tell me you've committed the crime, I can't defend you with a flat out lie. I can maybe still try to come up with a defense, but I can't say you weren't even there if you tell me you were. Right? So, if one or both LT and DT say yes we did these things in the name of discipline, we were at the end of our rope because of behavioral problems. Is that even a defense? If they could even prove that there was any problems with the kids before the abuse caused its own set of problems, would that even be a defense? Or wouldn't that be a crime in and of itself, to not seek professional help of some sort?

I'd love for them to just plead guilty and do their time. I am curious what other ianal but opinions are....and real lawyers too.

I think that a lot of stuff that's been batted around, has a 2nd side, that can be used to cast doubt, in an impartial jury. I don't think that they'll get off scot free, but I don't think that they'll be in prison til they die. If they land a whopper of a sentence, I'll be honest, I'll be surprised, pleasantly, but still surprised.

 

[rsd1200]

No, I think it goes deeper than that. I don't think it was just declining living conditions. The 17-year-old's words were that they were being held captive, so she - and apparently the others - knew that the restraints - which had been going on for quite some time - were wrong. They took the dangerous steps to get photographic evidence. This doesn't sound like somebody who didn't know that it was wrong because that was how it has always been. It sounds like somebody who knew full well that it was wrong and finally got brave enough to take drastic measures for herself and her siblings to do something about it. She apparently even feared for her life.

And no, I don't think she was the only sibling that felt that way, I think the escape was planned by several, including the sister who got scared and returned. While we haven't heard much about how the siblings are doing, one thing we did hear was that even after being freed for over a week, none of them were asking about their parents. That doesn't sound like they didn't know things should be better.

It sounds like they did crave that freedom, but were so conditioned with fear that it took awhile for the right conditions to fall into place.

I agree, but I think that they had to have had some exposure, in life, to understand how wrong it was. They watch their sibs grow up and be put through the same thing that they have. Two years ago they started planning. They'd tried once before. I agree that they'd come to know life shouldn't be that way. Just curious as to what sparked the plan. Something caused them to draw the line in the sand. One is 29. That's a long time. We may have to wait awhile to find that out.

 

[rsd1200]

Pre-natal testing and abortion. Tests can determine whether a fetus has Down Syndrome as early as 10-weeks into the pregnancy, which is early enough for an abortion.

http://healthland.time.com/2012/02/17/why-down-syndrome-is-on-the-decline/

Didn't think of that. I don't recall my kids having that test done when expecting. That's sorta sad.

 

[mtnlites]

mtn full box

Oops! Ha ha. I cleared it.

 

[gitana1]

I agree, but I think that they had to have had some exposure, in life, to understand how wrong it was. They watch their sibs grow up and be put through the same thing that they have. Two years ago they started planning. They'd tried once before. I agree that they'd come to know life shouldn't be that way. Just curious as to what sparked the plan. Something caused them to draw the line in the sand. One is 29. That's a long time. We may have to wait awhile to find that out.

It got worse two years ago. Around the time the baby was born, for some reason. But it seems clear to me that that is when things began to get much worse and so they started planning.

A very strong one among them managed to rise above the fear and traumatic conditioning to risk for rescue. I imagine it took awhile to find that courage. Maybe there were even earlier, aborted eacape
attempts.

Yes Im just glad they made it out alive.

 

[gitana1]

I've seen articles that say parents who torture their children are different from the more usual child abuse due to unchecked aggression. There are rather uniquely terrible points to this case, like both biological parents being involved.

I know it can get touchy when defense theory comes up. I'll tread lightly, I hope.

Ianal, but defense option of blame the other falls a little flat for me because of the ongoing nature of the abuses. Unless LT can somehow prove she suffered the same abuses previously. But short of some concrete evidence from the late 80s, early 90s that he beat & chained & starved her, that's gonna be a tough pill for me to swallow. A bitter one, either way.

Defense option of insanity. I think they both have an alphabet soup we could diagnose them with if we were real shrinks, but none of it would equal the kind of break with reality that a not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect requires as far as I understand it.

I've read that parents in these torture cases often admit to some of the abuse. They will minimize it or even blame the victim. So, I'm all for a rigorous defense. But if I'm your lawyer (but ianal, so I'm not) and you tell me you've committed the crime, I can't defend you with a flat out lie. I can maybe still try to come up with a defense, but I can't say you weren't even there if you tell me you were. Right? So, if one or both LT and DT say yes we did these things in the name of discipline, we were at the end of our rope because of behavioral problems. Is that even a defense? If they could even prove that there was any problems with the kids before the abuse caused its own set of problems, would that even be a defense? Or wouldn't that be a crime in and of itself, to not seek professional help of some sort?

I'd love for them to just plead guilty and do their time. I am curious what other ianal but opinions are....and real lawyers too.

Great and intelligent post. It's actually agains the code of ethics to put on a defense you know is a lie!

Excusing the abuse based on discipline gone wrong due to being overwhelmed or trying to cope with behavioral issues is 100% an absolute defense to the torture charges as torture necessitates that they were doing it for purposes of sadistic pleasure. Like they enjoyed harming the kids.

It is absolutely a valid defense.

I just don't think it will be effective at all in this case. I hope not. There hasn't been a great track record nation wide with prosecuting these kinds of cases. For example, only 7 years in this case: https://mobile.nytimes.com/2006/02/...rved-him.html?referer=https://www.google.com/

My opinion from decades of reading about torture child abuse cases is that our culture considers kids property and gives parents a ton of leeway.

Someone pointed out that a case here in California a few years ago, kmvoving a 16 year old who escaped, Kyle, resulted in long sentences for the culprits.

But none of them were the actual, legal parents of the child in question.

I go back and forth as to how this one will come out. I don't think they'll get off easy. I'm praying for 95 years. Nothing less.

 

[human]

I do wonder what the kids had at their one meal a day. Breakfast? Lunch? Dinner? She cooked for 13? I cannot see it.

Fortified cereal for breakfast? They had to have some nutrition or wouldn’t they die?

 

[rsd1200]

It got worse two years ago. Around the time the baby was born, for some reason. But it seems clear to me that that is when things began to get much worse and so they started planning.

A very strong one among them managed to rise above the fear and traumatic conditioning to risk for rescue. I imagine it took awhile to find that courage. Maybe there were even earlier, aborted eacape
attempts.

Yes Im just glad they made it out alive.

That's what I'd thought too. That each move, and each birthday, got a little worse for them. What freedoms, and cleanliness (in new digs), they were exposed to, let them know it wasn't right. The previous escape plot failed, and got them shackled. Trial and error. Learn from mistakes. They were quite savvy.

 

[rsd1200]

I do wonder what the kids had at their one meal a day. Breakfast? Lunch? Dinner? She cooked for 13? I cannot see it.

Fortified cereal for breakfast? They had to have some nutrition or wouldn’t they die?

That has been one of my reasons for going back to food, and looking at the nutrients. Kids, and the elderly, become ill, and have underlying illnesses, caused by malnutrition, that can kill them. For example, say, the flu might be listed on death cert., but if they'd been healthy prior to getting the flu, they probably could have fought it off.

Nearly half of all deaths in children under 5 are attributable to undernutrition, translating into the loss of about 3 million young lives a year. Undernutrition puts children at greater risk of dying from common infections, increases the frequency and severity of such infections, and contributes to delayed recovery.

https://data.unicef.org/topic/nutrition/malnutrition/

 

[mtnlites]

I do wonder what the kids had at their one meal a day. Breakfast? Lunch? Dinner? She cooked for 13? I cannot see it.

Fortified cereal for breakfast? They had to have some nutrition or wouldn’t they die?

You can go an amazingly long time without proper nutrition. As long as they were getting calories in some form, even empty ones, they would've kept going-especially if the abuse and neglect escalated 2 years ago and didn't just start then. I have been hospitalized off and on all my life for malnutrition, not because I was being starved but because of a medical condition. You can feel the effects of starvation almost right away (ie. you get hungry and/or your blood sugar drops) but the effects of malnutrition take a lot longer to set in. The various vitamin deficiencies and the issues they cause can take months and months to show effects. A proper meal here and there could have, unfortunately, given them just enough to keep their bodies going without actually causing them to starve to death (though I say they were undoubtedly in starvation mode). The less you eat, sometimes, the less your body thinks it needs to eat. At some of my worst points, I could go for a week without eating anything more than a piece of fruit in a single day. Sit a plate of food in front of me and I'd only be able to peck at it. When my condition is being managed better, however, then I NEED at least 3 (sometimes 4 or 5) meals a day and I can eat every bite.

No, I am not bulimic or anorexic. I just have a rare connective tissue disorder that wreaks havoc with both the neurological and digestive systems. Frequently hospitalized to bring the levels of everything back up.

 

[rsd1200]

You can go an amazingly long time without proper nutrition. As long as they were getting calories in some form, even empty ones, they would've kept going-especially if the abuse and neglect escalated 2 years ago and didn't just start then. I have been hospitalized off and on all my life for malnutrition, not because I was being starved but because of a medical condition. You can feel the effects of starvation almost right away (ie. you get hungry and/or your blood sugar drops) but the effects of malnutrition take a lot longer to set in. The various vitamin deficiencies and the issues they cause can take months and months to show effects. A proper meal here and there could have, unfortunately, given them just enough to keep their bodies going without actually causing them to starve to death (though I say they were undoubtedly in starvation mode). The less you eat, sometimes, the less your body thinks it needs to eat. At some of my worst points, I could go for a week without eating anything more than a piece of fruit in a single day. Sit a plate of food in front of me and I'd only be able to peck at it. When my condition is being managed better, however, then I NEED at least 3 (sometimes 4 or 5) meals a day and I can eat every bite.

No, I am not bulimic or anorexic. I just have a rare connective tissue disorder that wreaks havoc with both the neurological and digestive systems. Frequently hospitalized to bring the levels of everything back up.

Thank you for sharing mtn. I hate it about your health condition. Your story does help to understand, how this could have gone on, for so long. I'd referred to my ex's malnutrition earlier. Now that I think, it had probably gone on longer than we all realized. The broken leg just drew attention to the dilemma.

 

[mtnlites]

Thank you for sharing mtn. I hate it about your health condition. Your story does help to understand, how this could have gone on, for so long. I'd referred to my ex's malnutrition earlier. Now that I think, it had probably gone on longer than we all realized. The broken leg just drew attention to the dilemma.

It may very well have been going on longer. :-( That's so sad.

Growing up, my granny used to say, "If you don't eat then your tummy shrinks and it thinks it doesn't need to eat." Though her terminology wasn't scientific, she wasn't wrong in believing that your body does change when you are deprived of food (for whatever reason) and it does start accepting less and less as sufficient. Naturally, you aren't getting enough but it takes the rest of your body a little bit of time to catch up to that. Personal anecdote: I was at UK (you know the place ) a few years ago and they were having trouble getting things in me and STAYING in me. (That's one of my biggest issues.) I'd been in there for about a week and they were talking about a tube, which I've resisted for years, when I suddenly awoke from a nap craving a chocolate donut. The head of the department came down and was like, "Bring her a donut. Hell, bring her 5!" No donuts, but they had eclairs and I must have eaten half a dozen of them. At that point she wasn't concerned with nutritional value, her thing was just getting something inside of me and she thought that if I was craving it, then it might just stay. And it did. Of course, after that we got me back on track with "healthy stuff."

Malnutrition and starvation are funny things. Very complicated.

 

[janeh]

I do wonder what the kids had at their one meal a day. Breakfast? Lunch? Dinner? She cooked for 13? I cannot see it.

Fortified cereal for breakfast? They had to have some nutrition or wouldn’t they die?

The parents were playing a dangerous game with the lives of their children. It amazes me that none of the children died (that we know of) as a result of the risks they took with the starvation element. Considering that the oldest girl was very poorly at the point of rescue, I wonder how the parents kept them starved for so long, yet they all managed to survive somehow.

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk

 

[Satch]

You can go an amazingly long time without proper nutrition. As long as they were getting calories in some form, even empty ones, they would've kept going-especially if the abuse and neglect escalated 2 years ago and didn't just start then. I have been hospitalized off and on all my life for malnutrition, not because I was being starved but because of a medical condition. You can feel the effects of starvation almost right away (ie. you get hungry and/or your blood sugar drops) but the effects of malnutrition take a lot longer to set in. The various vitamin deficiencies and the issues they cause can take months and months to show effects. A proper meal here and there could have, unfortunately, given them just enough to keep their bodies going without actually causing them to starve to death (though I say they were undoubtedly in starvation mode). The less you eat, sometimes, the less your body thinks it needs to eat. At some of my worst points, I could go for a week without eating anything more than a piece of fruit in a single day. Sit a plate of food in front of me and I'd only be able to peck at it. When my condition is being managed better, however, then I NEED at least 3 (sometimes 4 or 5) meals a day and I can eat every bite.

No, I am not bulimic or anorexic. I just have a rare connective tissue disorder that wreaks havoc with both the neurological and digestive systems. Frequently hospitalized to bring the levels of everything back up.

I doubt Louise cooked. I don't think she new how. The children were probably given just enough to stay alive with only one meal a day. The pies that they tortured the kids with leaving on the counter, I am sure were store bought. There were Vienna Sausage cans all over the house. I don't any fruits or vegetables or grains. What do you think they were given for their one meal?

Satch

 

[December]

Well, some fruits don't leave much evidence that you ate them. So, fruit IS possible. Some vegetables can be eaten raw and don't leave a lot of evidence.

Just because that one guy found a bunch of Vienna Sausage cans at the one house doesn't mean that is all they ever got. Maybe they got cans of other things as well like soup.

Or maybe they got the child's meal from a restaurant.

We won't know unless they tell us.

From what doctors say, they got too few calories/not enough nutrition regularly. But, that isn't to say that this was a consistent amount. Maybe it was closer to enough now and then just depending on what they were getting. Eta... But still not enough for them to recover or put on weight.

IDK, of course. But, I think maybe when a move was coming up things got worse... The Vienna Sausages in Texas and whatever was going on to cause them to escape and say they were starving in California. And I think when one of the activities was coming up things got slightly better just so they could somewhat do the activity. The thing is, there hadn't been an activity in a while.

I am just guessing, of course.

 

[jjenny]

My mom's youngest was born when my mom was almost 40.
Not once did her OB/GYN say she was high risk for a Down Syndrome baby...or any any other genetic defect.

One of my teachers in high school was told her baby would have Down Syndrome. All the genetic tests and amniocentesis were positive. Baby was born with no Down Syndrome.

I don't put much stock into such statistics anyways.

These people still had their adult children living at home, barely any education and apparently not expecting them to get a job, or get married, or live on independently. I doubt they would even be concerned about Down Syndrome.