CA - American students catch heat for wearing red, white & blue on Cinco de Mayo

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
nova, sadly, you are the only voice on the "other side" of this debate who has come anywhere close to saying that you think the vice-principal erred. You have also attempted to justify his decision by opining that flag-wearing might be excluded from protection under the "fighting words" exception....

sonjay, you explained why the "fighting words" exception doesn't apply and I believe you.

What remains are court-rulings that schools may infringe on other rights in order to avoid disruption of the learning process. I think that's the issue that might apply here (based on your own accounts of 9th Circuit rulings).

But IIRC, there were other posters on the first couple of pages who deplore censorship, while recognizing that a school is a special case.
 
If the American flag antagonizes those Mexican students, why are they in America, for the freebies?

Because it's a free country and they have as much right to be here as anyone. Now lets reverse the situation. What if the white students had to walk through a gauntlet of angry old Mexican "patriots" waving Mexican flags in their faces, and telling them to go back where they came from because Mexicans were here first.

Think about it.
 
sonjay, you explained why the "fighting words" exception doesn't apply and I believe you.

What remains are court-rulings that schools may infringe on other rights in order to avoid disruption of the learning process. I think that's the issue that might apply here (based on your own accounts of District 9 rulings).

But IIRC, there were other posters on the first couple of pages who deplore censorship, while recognizing that a school is a special case.

I inadvertantly left out a couple of words when I said you were the only one on the "other side" who thought the asst. principal erred: "in 2015." Most of the posts in the first couple of pages are from the original 2010 discussion.

Did you read up on the Tinker case? Did you read my post upthread about the Tinker case? The "disruption" element is clearly addressed.

The Supreme Court upheld the right of students to wear anti-war black armbands to school during the Vietnam era. If that was considered insufficient disruption to justify the infringement of students' free speech rights, it's simply laughable to think that a flag-themed t-shirt during a Cinco de Mayo celebration could possibly rise to the level of disruption required to justify infringing the students' free speech rights.

IMO, the 9th Circuit (which is one of the most-reversed circuit courts, BTW) got it wrong in the Morgan Hill School case. For now, the 9th Circuit Court's decision is binding in the 9th Circuit.

IMO, the Supreme Court will eventually accept cert on one of these cases and will rule that a flag t-shirt is protected speech at school.
 
Do me a favor? Go read about the anti-war black armband case. It was Tinker vs. Des Moines Independent Community School District. There's plenty of resources to be found through Google.

This was during the 1960s. Passions running high. People were dying in Viet Nam. Hateful, volatile protests by both sides. Children in the schools whose fathers had been killed in Viet Nam, or were at the time in combat in Viet Nam. Extremely volatile situation all over the country. (Remember Kent State?)....

Dude, I not only remember Kent State (I was a sophomore in high school), I remember the "arm band wars" as we watched the Iowa case and the Court's decision. The administration at my school wisely set aside outdoor space (it was Florida so the weather was nice year-round) for protests, so students could get to class without being disturbed.

So, yes, I remember.

Yet didn't you yourself say there have been rulings since that have narrowed that decision, rulings that recognize the need for schools to guarantee the safety of students and their right to an education?

Courts have ruled in other areas that students at school do NOT have the same rights as private citizens at home. For example, they have fewer protections from unreasonable search and seizure. You could certainly argue that they should have full freedom of speech rights, but that doesn't mean that they do.

(P.S. You don't have to keep lecturing me on the "free marketplace of ideas". I've said more than a few times that I support very few restrictions on free speech for adults.)
 
Because it's a free country and they have as much right to be here as anyone. Now lets reverse the situation. What if the white students had to walk through a gauntlet of angry old Mexican "patriots" waving Mexican flags in their faces, and telling them to go back where they came from because Mexicans were here first.

Think about it.

In that case, the white students would have to pull up their big girl panties and deal with it. Without violence, and without enlisting the force of the state to infringe on the free speech rights of the Mexicans.
 
sonjay, we were both composing posts at the same time.

You don't have to apologize for not writing "in 2015". The fault was mine for not even noticing the first several pages date back 5 years. My bad.
 
Haven't courts upheld restrictions on students wearing gang symbols? Apparently, school students do not have an unlimited right to free speech.
 
Dude, I not only remember Kent State (I was a sophomore in high school), I remember the "arm band wars" as we watched the Iowa case and the Court's decision. The administration at my school wisely set aside outdoor space (it was Florida so the weather was nice year-round) for protests, so students could get to class without being disturbed.

So, yes, I remember.

Yet didn't you yourself say there have been rulings since that have narrowed that decision, rulings that recognize the need for schools to guarantee the safety of students and their right to an education?

Courts have ruled in other areas that students at school do NOT have the same rights as private citizens at home. For example, they have fewer protections from unreasonable search and seizure. You could certainly argue that they should have full freedom of speech rights, but that doesn't mean that they do.

(P.S. You don't have to keep lecturing me on the "free marketplace of ideas". I've said more than a few times that I support very few restrictions on free speech for adults.)

Dude, I'm not a dude!

No, I didn't say there have been rulings that have narrowed that decision. There was one ruling, this one, by the 9th Circuit (the most reversed circuit court, BTW).

In general, court decisions at the circuit court level or higher almost always come down on the side of free speech, even within schools.

Gay rights:
Gillman v. Holmes County School District - 2008
A lesbian student reported anti-gay harassment to the school principal, who told her that being gay was wrong and she shouldn't advertise her sexual orientation. Some students showed their support by writing "gay pride" on their arms and clothing. Then the principal invited an anti-gay preacher to speak at the school. The lesbian chick's straight cousin decided to show her support by wearing a rainbow belt and a T-shirt that said "I support gays" to school. The School Board's attorney then proclaimed that all pro-gay symbols and slogans were banned because they would "likely be disruptive and interfere with the educational process."

The court upheld the right of students to express pro-gay messages at school.

Flag-related:
Holloman v. Harland - 2004
The court held that a student's constitutional rights were violated when he was punished after he silently raised his fist during the Pledge of Allegiance. The court wrote that "there must be demonstrable factors that would give rise to any reasonable forecast by the school administration of ‘substantial and material’ disruption of school activities before expression may be constitutionally restrained.” The court wrote that there must be a real or substantial threat of disorder, as opposed to the mere possibility of one.

From the ruling: "We cannot simply defer to the specter of disruption or the mere theoretical possibility of discord, or even some de minimis, insubstantial impact on classroom decorum. Particularly given the fact that young people are required by law to spend a substantial portion of their lives in classrooms, student expression may not be suppressed simply because it gives rise to some slight, easily overlooked disruption, including but not limited to ‘a showing of mild curiosity’ by other students, ‘discussion and comment’ among students, or even some ‘hostile remarks’ or ‘discussion outside of the classrooms’ by other students."

There are more. They almost always uphold free speech rights, even in the face of some level of disruption in response to the speech.

Disruption by those engaging in the speech can be stopped, obviously, not because of their speech but because of their disruption. But disruption by those who oppose the message is a problem on the part of the disruptors. The disruptors are the ones who need to be dealt with, not the ones who are exercising their core fundamental right of free speech.
 
Haven't courts upheld restrictions on students wearing gang symbols? Apparently, school students do not have an unlimited right to free speech.

I don't have any case law citation, but it wouldn't surprise me if banning gang symbols is allowed.

And no, no one (even me) is claiming that students have an unlimited right to free speech.

But students have free speech rights almost as extensive and comprehensive as adults, and that is a very broad, expansive right. The "strict scrutiny" standard of judicial review is applied to any case involving any restrictions on the core fundamental rights (including free speech) as enumerated in the constitution. Lower levels of scrutiny such as "important government interest" or "rational basis" are insufficient to pass judicial review for these core fundamental rights.

To pass the "strict scrutiny" test, these factors are required:

It must be justified by a compelling governmental interest. While the Courts have never brightly defined how to determine if an interest is compelling, the concept generally refers to something necessary or crucial, as opposed to something merely preferred. Examples include national security, preserving the lives of multiple individuals, and not violating explicit constitutional protections.

The law or policy must be narrowly tailored to achieve that goal or interest. If the government action encompasses too much (overbroad) or fails to address essential aspects of the compelling interest, then the rule is not considered narrowly tailored.

The law or policy must be the least restrictive means for achieving that interest. That is, there cannot be a less restrictive way to effectively achieve the compelling government interest. The test will be met even if there is another method that is equally the least restrictive. Some legal scholars consider this "least restrictive means" requirement part of being narrowly tailored, though the Court generally evaluates it separately.

It's not easy to restrict free speech. And it ought not be easy to restrict free speech.

ETA: Sorry, forgot to note that I stole the "strict scrutiny" definition from Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_scrutiny
 
And one more point: The Gillman case spoke directly to the issue of other students causing disruption by their reaction to peaceful free speech. Here's an excerpt from the Gillman decision on that point:

If a student’s conduct traverses the threshold of acceptable heated exchange into the realm of material and substantial disruption, the law requires school officials to punish the disruptive student, not the student whose speech is lawful. See Holloman , 370 F.3d at 1276 (“Principals have a duty to maintain order in public schools, but they may not do so while turning a blind eye to basic notions of right and wrong”); id. (Merely because “other students may react inappropriately or illegally, such reactions do not justify suppression . . . ”); id. (“[W]e cannot afford students less constitutional protection simply because their peers might illegally express disagreement through violence instead of reason.”);

Gillman case court opinion: https://www.aclu.org/files/images/asset_upload_file980_36150.pdf

And on the topic of viewpoint-based suppression of speech, from Gillman again:

If there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that the Government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable.”); Tinker, (a school cannot prohibit “expression of one particular opinion” unless it makes a specific showing of constitutionally valid reasons); Porter v. Ascension Parish Sch. Bd., (stating that Tinker “applies to school regulations directed at specific student viewpoints”). Indeed, viewpoint-based discrimination is “[o]ne of the most egregious types of First Amendment violations.” Holloman. In a school setting, the silencing of a political message because of disagreement with that message, is particularly offensive to the Constitution.

Even if the situation at Morgan Hill School was so dire that suppression of free speech was both necessary and the least restrictive way to avoid material and substantial disruption, the fact that the suppression of free speech was applied only to students wearing American-flag t-shirts makes it an egregious viewpoint-based violation. If indeed the suppression of free speech was Constitutionally permissible at Morgan Hill, for it to pass Constitutional muster, all students should have been prohibited from any discussion or expression of national pride or heritage. Disfavoring any one particular viewpoint while allowing others made it unconscionable, IMO.
 
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/south-carolina-teenager-high-school-u-s-pow-flags-truck/

S.C. teen sparks protest over showing flags at school

"Just proud to be an American citizen," the 18-year-old told WBTV. Robinson said a York Comprehensive High School administrator told him remove the American flag and the POW-MIA flag, which he has in the back of his truck.

"He said, 'We're having some issues. Some people were complaining about the flags in your truck, possibly offend them.' He asked me to take it down," Robinson said.

<snip>

According to Robinson, a school administrator told him to remove the flags when he got home and not come back to school with them. But the 18-year-old said before the school day was over on Wednesday a school official went to Robinson's parked truck, removed the bolts that secured the flags to the truck, took the flags down, and "laid my flags down in the middle of my truck when I wasn't even there."

Robinson was angry.


http://www.wbtv.com/story/29059451/...rk-co-senior-asked-to-take-down-american-flag

A high school in York County has spoken out after students protested Thursday morning when a senior said he was asked to remove an American flag from his pick-up truck.

Thursday morning, several students, parents, and veterans protested the incident, many setting up across from school grounds waving flags.

<snip>

"Due to the outstanding display of patriotism through peaceful demonstration, it is apparent to us that many are not happy about this policy," the school district posted on its website. "School officials have reviewed the standing policy regarding flags and have decided that an exception will be made for the American flag, as long as the size of the flag(s) does not create a driving hazard."

"We appreciate the passion and pride of all who have called or come by YCHS over the past 24 hours. America was founded by Patriots who led positive change in a myriad of ways," the district continued. "We believe today is a great example of peaceful demonstration leading to positive change. This is the very process we advocate in our Social Studies classrooms and the fabric of American citizenship. Thank you for helping us as we educate the students of our community."


======================================

I can't believe they actually told him not to fly the flag simply because "some people were complaining." And not only that, but they went out and removed it themselves!

Thankfully, though, it appears that this school gets it: "a great example of peaceful demonstration leading to positive change."
 
Indeed, sonjay. Despite any disagreements you and I may have had in the past, censoring students' cars goes way beyond anything needed to maintain control in a school. (And who could possibly be offended by the repatriation of MIAs from Vietnam, if any still survive?)

(Personal note: though I was raised in a suburb, I attended an experimental school in a rural area. Most of us rode buses, but local kids regularly drove pick-up trucks to school with SHOTGUNS hanging in the truck's rear window! Can you imagine such a thing today? LOL.)
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
269
Guests online
605
Total visitors
874

Forum statistics

Threads
608,392
Messages
18,238,947
Members
234,367
Latest member
Cholabhagat
Back
Top