CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #6

[Reasonable & Just]

And why confine him to a car? He could have sheltered in his own truck/5th wheel to cool off.

He could have been seriously distraught and they wanted to keep him safe. If I were in his place, they'd have to cuff me to keep me from running through the desert. And once it crossed my mind that a pervert might have my spouse, it would take a straitjacket to keep me from running down that highway.

 

[LAhiker]

LE Release of RT's Vehicles?


@LAhiker Thx for post.
Agreeing w you re LE keeping RT out from underfoot, after LE got basic info from RT and while LE and SAR did their work.

New subject: Are you saying after RT called MisPers and before LE arrived, that RT moved truck & 5th wheel? Link pls? If so, I missed that entirely, but entirely possible.

New subject: Phrase ^ 'release the vehicles" makes me think LE got search warrant on first day? Did they?
Did LE also polygraph RT the first day?
Thx in adv.

Thanks! I don't know LE-speak -- sounds like you do -- so I may have unintentionally implied something I didn't mean to. This is all I meant:

1. I don't think we know for sure where RT was when he called 911. While the default assumption is presumably that he called from the same location from which he said BT was missing, and therefore that the truck/RV were exactly where they were when that happened, I don't think we know that for sure. I gather cell signal is a bit iffy around there, so he might've had to drive to make the call.

One thing that adds to my confusion about this is that the initial alerts from the SBCSO said something like "20 miles north of the I-40 and east of Kelbaker." But their command post and the search area was at Kelbaker at Hidden Hill Road, which is 6.3 miles north of the I-40.

Maybe the location given in the initial alerts was a simple error? Maybe the cell signal appeared to be coming from further north but in fact was not? I think the localization of cell phones is often poor -- hasn't this caused problems when people use their cells to call 911? -- but don't know whether it could be that off. Does anyone know?

2. I did not mean to imply by "released" that LE had a warrant on the first day and don't know whether they did. I doubt it (doesn't a judge have to sign off on that?) but I don't know. I think that in one of these threads people suggested that LE might've asked RT informally if they could look in the truck/RV and others debated whether such informal consent might be problematic in an eventual court case.

If LE asked RT to stay in their cruiser for 5 hours, though, that would have the practical effect of their holding his vehicles for that time. But I don't know whether they could/would do anything in the way of searching those vehicles during that time. So maybe I should've said something like "when they released him" rather "when they released the vehicles."

3. I don't know when LE did the polygraph. I doubt it was the first day because it sounds like he was held at/near the search area and not in a police or sheriff's station -- isn't the latter where they would administer a polygraph? Also in @dbdb11's sister's recollection of RT's description of what happened that day, he doesn't mention taking a polygraph, though in the Inside Edition interview 5 days later, he does mention taking one. So I guess he did one within 4 or 5 days.

JMO

 

[al66pine]

LE Cruiser - Oasis from Heat or a Sweat Box?

I assume the a/c was running. Otherwise, he would probably be dead.
ETA: I have literally no idea who said the cruiser didn't have the A/C running.

CSIDreamer Thanks for your new post, because I apparently misread your earlier one. My apologies. I misread it as saying "cooling off" was the reason for RT to be in 5th wheel, instead of LE cruiser.
I overlooked the other significant advantages - to RT- to being in 5th wheel: stretching legs, grabbing a bev, etc.
Again, sorry for my misinterp.

And yes, I think, moo, LE cruiser a/c was on.

 

[GordianKnot]

And... we're assuming everything RT told the family is true.

I don't like to make assumptions.

I do like working with facts.

One known fact is that RT went on Inside Edition and stated that LE told him the results of his polygraph showed he was being deceptive.

It's also a known fact that the 911 call was placed at 3:26 pm.

Another notable fact is that LE searched exhaustively for 9 days and found no evidence or trace of BT there.

Inferences aren't the same thing as assumptions.

I'm okay with drawing some inferences based on the known facts.

JMO.

 

[oceanstarryeyes]

The time discrepancies bother me hugely.

The difference b/t "noon" and "3:26" pm is not incidental.

It is nearly 3.5 hours.

Now, I ain't no mathematician, but by my calculations, if you were converting the time difference into, say, a distance measurement, a vehicle traveling 60 mph could travel roughly 210 miles in that amount of time.

That's a gaping hole in the timeline, not a small discrepancy.

JMO.

I think RT said (at the very beginning, when the hat was red) that it was around 12:30 when he got back to the RV and he didn’t see BT. RT “yelled and looked around” then hiked to a cave they had both been to looking for her. He then returned back to the Truck and RV and called 911.

 

[Lilibet]

BIB
We don't know that, do we?

No we don’t. I guess I should have specifically said “No one had come forward that we know of” which is what I meant.

 

[Lilibet]

And... we're assuming everything RT told the family is true.

Yes, and we’re also assuming that the family member remembered everything RT told her accurately. She even questioned her own memory, so I wouldn’t rely on her text to @dbdb11 as an absolutely 100% accurate representation of what RT said. Bottom line is that we have possible deception by RT and possible inaccurate memory in the retelling. Who really knows at this point?!

 

[dspdenver]

Since RT was adamant that someone had abducted her as she crossed that highway to get to the RV --- maybe LE felt it prudent to at least search the fifth wheel and truck, as the kidnappers could've left evidence.

Since LE went with that scenario initially.
Later amended it to 'no evidence of a kidnapping'.

Is there evidence that RT was adamant about abduction those first hours of the search, and that LE treated it as a kidnapping initially? The initial SBCSD twitter alert referenced elsewhere said a search was underway for a missing hiker, so I assume that is what RT called it in as, not as an abduction. And in keeping with LE treating it as a missing hiker, SAR searched into the night that day and following days.

IMO, RT may have switched to the abduction idea after the lack of search findings and then being polygraphed by LE, when it's possible their (leading?) questions led him to posit the abduction scenario as being more likely.

 

[al66pine]

....
1. I don't think we know for sure where RT was when he called 911. While the default assumption is presumably that he called from the same location from which he said BT was missing, and therefore that the truck/RV were exactly where they were when that happened, I don't think we know that for sure. I gather cell signal is a bit iffy around there, so he might've had to drive to make the call.

One thing that adds to my confusion about this is that the initial alerts from the SBCSO said something like "20 miles north of the I-40 and east of Kelbaker." But their command post and the search area was at Kelbaker at Hidden Hill Road, which is 6.3 miles north of the I-40.
Maybe the location given in the initial alerts was a simple error? Maybe the cell signal appeared to be coming from further north but in fact was not? I think the localization of cell phones is often poor -- hasn't this caused problems when people use their cells to call 911? -- but don't know whether it could be that off. Does anyone know...JMO

@LAhiker Hi again. ^bbm in red and ^ sbm
1. You asked about (maybe) driving before RT was able to make MisPers call, indicating a cell service prob. I wondered about cell service being dodgy/lame/non-existent there. Didn't a couple posters go to that site, comment about highway, trail, rocks, and cell service? What did they say? What post #s?
Would there be much variation from one cell provider to another? IOW if our sleuthers w XYZ cell service had great reception, could RT w ABC cell service have had lousy or no reception?

Did some others theorize about RT calling 911, then moving truck & 5er, and returning before LE arrived. As if.... he was doing something suspicious or unusual in the meantime???And if RT needed to explain why he moved vehicles (if he did), he could say - crummy cell service - even it his cell got service there.

2. and 3. later?

 

[rosesfromangels]

Has someone been named a POI and I missed it?
If not, the thread is straying away from TOS again....

Love y'all; I want the thread to stay open.... : )

 

[al66pine]

Possible LE Observations?

agree totally the correct procedure
ive seen police reports.
they are very good at observation and documenting it.
keeping him in a safe uncompromised place watching and listening .
those hours are the most critical.
5 hours would tell them a lot about RT.
imo

@k-mac Thanks for your post. ^ bbm
Can you give us some examples pls? Just hypothetically. Thx in adv.

 

[MassGuy]

I don't like to make assumptions.

I do like working with facts.

One known fact is that RT went on Inside Edition and stated that LE told him the results of his polygraph showed he was being deceptive.

It's also a known fact that the 911 call was placed at 3:26 pm.

Another notable fact is that LE searched exhaustively for 9 days and found no evidence or trace of BT there.

Inferences aren't the same thing as assumptions.

I'm okay with drawing some inferences based on the known facts.

JMO.

“Inferences aren’t the same thing as assumptions.”

Love that one.

In fact, I’m stealing it.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

*BREAKING NEWS*
---no updates in this case---

 

[Nerissa]

*BREAKING NEWS*
---no updates in this case---

Geez.
Just take the wind out of our sails here

Guess you're right though....

 

[firstsleuth]

Regarding what RT said to our VI's family about the timing of the 911 call, here's the text message that if I understand correctly @dbdb11 received from his sister, who had heard RT's account to her and other family member on speakerphone -- BBM, and I'll also quote the part that's the most relevant to our current discussion (though the rest is also interesting).

"by around noon time it was getting terribly hot so he started getting worried and called 911. police arrived like 2 hours later and searched for her"



CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, Bullhead City, hiking wearing bikini in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019

Respectfully copied and pasted from blue post above (VI’s sister’s text msg) and snipped by me for focus:

BBM; ITA

“they lost sight of each other for 5-10 minutes before she “vanished” and he went back to their rv to see if she had returned but it was still locked so that meant she hadn’t come back yet (they had put the key under a rock which they both knew the location of). so he went back to check a shaded cave that they had found together earlier thinking she may have been taking a break from the heat but she wasn’t there either. he still wasn’t worried at this point because.. i don’t remember why he said he wasn’t yet worried. maybe because they both knew the area?”

Just noticed another discrepancy. Seems he was not so certain where or when he expected her to be? Very different narrative than “needing to ?.. (word not clear in interview) the RV” from the Inside Edition interview.

Not saying this happened here, but my husband and I have needed space from each other on a couple of hikes. Our rule is if tempers flare we respect the other if we need a break. Usually we stay within sight of each other — but certainly not a requirement. Neither of us would worry until an hour had passed

MOO and my own experience

ETA: VI’s sister may have been referencing after RT (not BT as originally added to my edit) had gone to shady cave to look? I’m trying not to pick at every single word, but I just noticed this today and felt a jolt of realization inside...may not mean anything tho

Edited the ETA for correction in parentheses above

Edited again to add: Very interested in others’ opinions on this...it could explain so much...MOO

 

[10ofRods]

Yes that's what I was referring to. Too late to edit my post. IMO they were questioning him most of that time but not confirmed by our VI. If not questioning him, what do you suppose they were doing with him for 5 hours?

Keeping him air conditioned? Away from a potential crime scene? Letting him sleep?

If it was in fact 5 hours. Which we don't know.

 

[LietKynes]

@LAhiker Hi again. ^bbm in red and ^ sbm
1. You asked about (maybe) driving before RT was able to make MisPers call, indicating a cell service prob. I wondered about cell service being dodgy/lame/non-existent there. Didn't a couple posters go to that site, comment about highway, trail, rocks, and cell service? What did they say? What post #s?
Would there be much variation from one cell provider to another? IOW if our sleuthers w XYZ cell service had great reception, could RT w ABC cell service have had lousy or no reception?

Did some others theorize about RT calling 911, then moving truck & 5er, and returning before LE arrived. As if.... he was doing something suspicious or unusual in the meantime???And if RT needed to explain why he moved vehicles (if he did), he could say - crummy cell service - even it his cell got service there.

2. and 3. later?

Blue bolding mine

We don't know.
But you're describing someone with intelligent planning if this is a possible scenario.

 

[Nerissa]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>
The VI has shared photos: some of which show BT in a bikini: one I recall red: etc.: some folks enjoy a laid back existence. Hawaii, too, is such a place: it's natural to not have a lot of clothes on. Comes with the territory

Just the fact that it's not a fact of what a woman who vanishes into thin air is wearing - that's odd - it's odd for LE not to be forthcoming.....where are the pics from that day showing what she wore, what she looked like so she could be identified, or someone might recall....?

ETA: BT did go bikini style camping - pics to prove that provided by VI
I doubt she was in her underwear/bikini because she was fleeing
JMO

 

[firstsleuth]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>

If I had appropriate underwear that looked like a two-piece and someone was arguing about whether or not I could hike in it...I might need a break from that person and stalk off.

See my post just a few posts above; still interested in others’ impressions of it; in spite of my immense enjoyment of the moments of comic relief in between

ETA MOO

 

[1&2&3]

The five hours that RT reportedly sat in the LE car does not sound odd to me. Think of other cases where the spouse is taken to the police station and questioned for hours, many times longer than five hours.

For me, the police car was the same as being taken to the police station for questioning. IIRC, the police station was quite a distance from where RT was. At that point, they were dealing with a missing person and had no suspicion of making an arrest. Therefore, the long drive to the station and back was an unnecessary trip. JMO.