CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #7

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10ofRods said:
And, actually, this is my own area of expertise. Within that specialty, there are many subspecialties. I don't have enough context to say anything definitely about RT's utterances. I also specialize in written communication and aid in forensic diagnostics of mental illness.

I will say just one thing: compared to many people, RT was not reticent to be on camera and televised talking about the disappearance. Sure, there were some "um's" (not always present even in a shy person's speech) but in general, he seemed eager to talk (and yet...had not yet laid out any coherent appeal to the public regarding how to find his wife or detailing the circumstances under which she disappeared). Emphasis on the word "detail."

Fine tooth comb is exactly how it's done. A cultural context is also needed. Since RT and Barbara are roughly from my own language community, I only wish I had some video of the two of them together (in order to see both of them in action, as it were).

Interesting, too, that despite his interest in photography (and possible possession of a 360 camera, which I doubt until there is actual evidence of it (since people use that term to describe the panorama ability of smartphones)...there is no video of the hike or any video at all (sent to family) of anything.

It takes me a while to leap past "literal meaning of words as commonly understood within community of speakers" to any other interpretation. Cops tend to be automatically think about what the literal meaning of words might be hiding. Cops look to trip people up, I know that all people sometimes misspeak. It's a yin-yang kind of thing.

But I do know this: something doesn't add up with the timeline for that day and known actions and events. If RT can't accurately estimate time of day and time of calls, then I'm doubtful of his other abilities to measure and recount properly. Some people always guesstimate. And I mean...pretty much always, as far as linguists can tell (and psychologists and psychological anthropologists). Doesn't mean I don't believe his other statements, just means I bring doubt to those next.

Which led me back to the basics (mapping where people were when they said things and mapping the places they are talking about).

Did RT know exactly where they had gone, after they crossed the highway? What do his pictures show? Did SAR have those pictures? Did LE have them early on? Who was in control of the camera when the pictures were first shown? When was the phone taken from RT and looked through thoroughly (if it was). I can picture a policeman sitting in the front of the car with RT (not the back), going through each picture (not taking notes, not intimidating RT in any way, just doing what the policeman does best: remember things and ask more questions).

That would have guided the search very well. And still, they didn't find her. She had 3 hours to be away from where RT last saw her...huge search radius.

I'm now doubting that they hiked as far as I initially thought he said, but I'll save that for another post.
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Your comments re the camera are interesting. Do we know what camera was used?
These may be obsolete now but I somehow was imagining an SLR with film inside that would need to be developed. (Do they still do that?!)
I also imagine a camera where the picture comes up after takening it but you need to have the camera in hand to view the pictures.
I was also wondering if maybe he had a tripod and that's what took him so long. It might be tough setting it up, screwing the camera on top of the tripod and then packing everything up and putting it away. I can see where BT would lose interest and be on her way.
Sorry if the above is outdated and no one in their right mind does this anymore, but I would take the little
card in the camera, take it to a CVS and play with the pics before having them developed.
 
10ofRods said:
It seems very odd to me, as a somewhat experienced hiker. Especially in the desert. To have no water on one's person is, to me, sort of like walking barefoot or poking at a rattlesnake. But that's just me. Obviously, Barbara (if she died of heat or thirst out there) would have been better off if she carried water. They did a short scramble to the top of something, and if he had fallen into a crack, wedged his backpack, then no one would have water. Redundancy on essentials is key to desert survival.

I know they thought they were very close to their rig, and, well, I see people stop and walk off in flip flops, no hat, no water, all the time. Even desert experts sometimes forget or underestimate water needs. You can't really hike into GC without random people begging you for water.

I always take my ID, as well, and we both take our own keys. My husband sometimes carries my bag for me (when I'm trying to get up a rock) but hands it back if we are going to separate for any reason (potty breaks, one of us wants a photo). That's kind of the point of me having my separate bag (just in case we get separated, so far, we haven't, at least, not when both of us were out of sight of our vehicle). We once spotted a lost dog, my husband took off to try and help it (he got it, we found the owners a tenth of a mile away, they had tied the dog up while they did something, dog got away). In the meantime, husband and I were separated, but again, I had my bag (with sunscreen, water, keys, ID, etc).

I cannot emphasize enough how breaking this rule of not carrying separate supplies is just basic. We do this in non-desert travel as well. So while it wouldn't be odd at Disneyland to have one person carry everything, but in any kind of wilderness (and where they were, definitely counts as wilderness), not good.

On a different topic, since Pommy Mommy posted such great pictures of the parking area...do any of you see any rocks suitable for hiding keys there? I wonder how far outside the lot they had to go (since larger rocks don't belong in parking lots and many people would toss 'em back out into the desert). A fist sized rock would not be big enough and any rock right in the parking lot would risk having your keys smash by another vehicle - so...I wonder how easy it was for Barb to find the key, if she did make it back to the RV. (I am skeptical about that part of RT's story, obviously). Maybe the rock was right underneath their trailer? I wish he'd given more details about his own desert travel skills.

Were they used to separating on walks? (Hence, the key thing was a pattern?)



I think it's been pretty well established that the report is wrong. It is confusing, but the 911 call came from a location 6.5 miles north of I-40 and that's where the search crew showed up and that's where the search was organized. It also matches RT's description of where the trail started. Is it possible they were searching in the wrong place? I suppose - but boy is that ever weird. It's entered into the AG's missing person's database as Kelbaker/HH and that was done by LE.

Dogs can't track scent well in dry hot desert conditions. Dogs were used to search for the couple at Amboy (some 15-20 miles away from this site) and were unsuccessful in finding either body initially. Not sure they were even involved when one body was found 11 months later.
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Well, you and your husband are very smart hikers! I commend your preparation and practice.

The key under a rock notion didn’t make me raise an eyebrow when I heard it. I heard runners and surfers do something similar, so I assumed the reasoning could be something similar.

I thought it was not done in case they got separated, but maybe so it would not get accidentally dropped somewhere by mistake or get buried way down in the pack and a pain to dig out of it when they got back to the rv.

Maybe the rock was used like a chock (those wedge thingies put against tires to prevent rolling—are those used with an rv? ‘Cause I’m so knowledgeable about such things—NOT—lol) or put under a rock next to one of those chocks? I don’t know.

I still do wonder about how we’ve always read they were hiking EAST of Kelbaker Road, and I don’t believe that ever changed in media reports. Our poster sroad is certain it had to be west of a Kelbaker, though, as it makes the most sense; but is it really certain? I guess the searchers searched both sides, so maybe it doesn’t matter, but I keep wondering about it.

(Off topic, but I like that you and your husband were kind and helped the lost dog. Made me smile.:) I’ve done that a couple of times now, too, and the owners were so grateful and relieved—as I would be, if it were my dog. And that’s why I try to catch a wandering dog; I’d hope someone would do the same for me!)
 
Auntie Cipation said:
Not really. I mean it comes down to either RT or not RT. Not permitted to accuse RT on this site, regardless of general statistics of how often a spouse is the perp in similar cases.

If it's not RT, I don't have any specific thoughts about who or why, other than to say my thoughts arose from the VI's comments about the past, the MLM, etc.

One scenario would be if RT arranged something that was implemented by others. But why, I wouldn't have a clue.

And I don't assume my thoughts cover all possibilities, so my point in posting was to see if my thinking outside the already-discussed-to-death box might give anyone else an idea that could be helpful.



If the truck and 5th wheel have not been searched by LE, then who knows what they contain. I can only conclude that if RT is innocent, then he of course would have searched there for any clues about what happened to BT. I mean, when he arrived back at the RV and didn't see her sitting outside under the awning, his first natural assumption would be that she was inside -- using the potty, getting more water, turning on the A/C, laying down if she didn't feel well, etc.

And if RT isn't innocent, it's hard for me to think he would have calmly left clues in the RV, because how could he have known with certainty that they wouldn't find SOMETHING sufficient for a warrant to look there?

So I don't claim it means anything, but can't let it go unobserved, that we (and quite possibly LE) have no idea if the truck and RV hold clues to BT's fate.
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Or not. If it was a pre-planned crime, the scene could be anywhere in the great outdoors, just not the search area.
 
k-mac said:
snipped for focus.

yeah I think your right 10 of RODS a search wasn't done on the RV.
I think its protocol that a few LE would have done a 'look through' but no touchies. like at the supermarket bag check.
so if something appeared off visually they would have legal standing to go ahead with a warrant.
not sure about america but in oz 2 or 3 police will independenly go through to see things with 'fresh eyes'.
so I believe LE would have walked through the RV with RTs permission but that's it.
obviously nothing seemed a miss in there.

moo
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Totally agree and this is a great description. That's exactly what probably happened.
 
slowpoke said:
Well, you and your husband are very smart hikers! I commend your preparation and practice.

The key under a rock notion didn’t make me raise an eyebrow when I heard it. I heard runners and surfers do something similar, so I assumed the reasoning could be something similar.

I thought it was not done in case they got separated, but maybe so it would not get accidentally dropped somewhere by mistake or get buried way down in the pack and a pain to dig out of it when they got back to the rv.

Maybe the rock was used like a chock (those wedge thingies put against tires to prevent rolling—are those used with an rv? ‘Cause I’m so knowledgeable about such things—NOT—lol) or put under a rock next to one of those chocks? I don’t know.

I still do wonder about how we’ve always read they were hiking EAST of Kelbaker Road, and I don’t believe that ever changed in media reports. Our poster sroad is certain it had to be west of a Kelbaker, though, as it makes the most sense; but is it really certain? I guess the searchers searched both sides, so maybe it doesn’t matter, but I keep wondering about it.

(Off topic, but I like that you and your husband were kind and helped the lost dog. Made me smile.:) I’ve done that a couple of times now, too, and the owners were so grateful and relieved—as I would be, if it were my dog. And that’s why I try to catch a wandering dog; I’d hope someone would do the same for me!)
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Well, from my point of view (examining the many photos tweeted by SAR - West Valley), they are on the west side of Kelbaker. I don't know where the reports on "east of Kelbaker" are coming from - yes, the RV and truck were there, but RT plainly says they crossed the highway. In order to cross the highway, they had to go west. No choice. He makes a clear statement, two times, that in order to get back to the RV (parked east of the highway) she had to cross the highway (so she had gone west, and was now returning to the east).

Where are you reading that the search was "east of Kelbaker." One recent story made that error, and 2 pictures (out of abou 20) show SAR searching east, in HH road - on something like the 7-8th day, where as all the other pictures are west of Kelbaker.

There is no trail east of Kelbaker (just a dirt road) so basically anyone who says they were mostly east is blatantly disregarding what RT said. He says they parked and crossed the highway. Everyone involve has pinpointed the parking area as where they were parked (as opposed to illegal parking on the actual preserve).
 
10ofRods said:
Well, from my point of view (examining the many photos tweeted by SAR - West Valley), they are on the west side of Kelbaker. I don't know where the reports on "east of Kelbaker" are coming from - yes, the RV and truck were there, but RT plainly says they crossed the highway. In order to cross the highway, they had to go west. No choice. He makes a clear statement, two times, that in order to get back to the RV (parked east of the highway) she had to cross the highway (so she had gone west, and was now returning to the east).

Where are you reading that the search was "east of Kelbaker." One recent story made that error, and 2 pictures (out of abou 20) show SAR searching east, in HH road - on something like the 7-8th day, where as all the other pictures are west of Kelbaker.

There is no trail east of Kelbaker (just a dirt road) so basically anyone who says they were mostly east is blatantly disregarding what RT said. He says they parked and crossed the highway. Everyone involve has pinpointed the parking area as where they were parked (as opposed to illegal parking on the actual preserve).
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July 22nd - The investigation continues into the whereabouts of missing person Barbara Thomas from SBSD - Colorado River Sheriffs Department : Nixle
On July 12, 2019, at 2:30 p.m., Barbara and her husband Robert were hiking in the Mohave desert approximately 20 miles north of the I-40 freeway east of Kelbaker Rd.

SBCSD Colorado River Station on Twitter
An search is underway in the Mohave desert 20 miles north of I-40 & east of Kelbaker Rd. for a lost hiker http://nixle.us/B6B2S
12:16 AM - 13 Jul 2019
 
10ofRods said:
This is major!

The details are conveyed in a neutral and tasteful manner, as well. There was no need to get into the panties vs bikini bottom vs shorts debate. :eek:
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According to that article, she wore a bikini top but not bottoms, haha. I agree, though. No need to get into that- it has nothing to do with her being missing. While it may be necessary if LE wanted tips as to whether someone saw a lady in a bikini, hat, sun glasses, carrying a travel mug that day, the silly argument over bikini bottom versus shorts is irrelevant.
 
al66pine said:
@Jazzy5980 :) Thanks for your post.
A gallon. Experienced hikers do not carry? Source? Link?
One gallon of water = 3.78 liters. or .79 gal = 3 liters.
Are we talking about the same unit of measurement?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amazon.com search for "hydration packs" shows over 1000 results, many w 3 liter bladders. ;) Are Camelbak* and other manufr's wasting their time making those 3 liter packs**, because experienced hikers (and outdoor recreationists) don't carry that much water? :rolleyes:
And no, I have no idea how much water RT was carrying or how he was carrying it. Just saying one gallon*** for two adults on two mile walk/hike in anticipated 40?-60?-90? min time in that Mojave heat is not excessive, imo.


* Backpacks and Hydration Packs — CamelBak
** typical reservoirs are between 1 to 3 liters "....commonly used for outdoor recreational activities, such as hiking, bicycling, and kayaking, as well as for military maneuvers.. ." Hydration pack - Wikipedia
*** "The USDA recommends a daily intake of total water: ... The recommended intake is 3.7 liters (appx. 1 gallon) per day for an adult male, and 2.7 liters (appx. 0.75 gallon) for an adult female." bbm < not calculated for hot temps like summer in Mojave desert.
Also Hydration Tips & How To Stay Hydrated — CamelBak
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I would think one gallon of water for one person to carry would be a bit heavy after walking a ways. Why not split the weight up and each carry a half gallon jug of water.
 
Jade said:
I believe the Sheriff’s office spokesperson is speculating on public speculation.

That article was posted on July 22nd and the spokesperson may not have even known that RT himself did an interview saying BT was taken while crossing the street back to the camper or she would have mentioned that's the husbands belief.

For consideration:

On the media thread the poster Oviedo has a link labeled first mention of abduction:


Man says police think he is a suspect in wife's disappearance


The article its self was dated: Posted: 6:32 PM, Jul 15, 2019

Robert believes she might have been picked up. Their trailer was parked near a road and he thinks someone might have take Barbara while she was crossing the road.


He’s asking people in surrounding areas, including Las Vegas, to be on high alert.


He says if anyone did pick her up, he won’t press charges. He just wants her home safe.


“I just want my wife back and if somebody out there has her, which I feel somebody does, please drop her off at a safe place where she can contact us and that’s it,” says Thomas. ​


The Inyo County Sheriff’s office Facebook page announces SP found at 2:00 on July 15

At 6:00, July 15, their update said no further information at this time.

The earliest MSM report, I can find, with information from SP’s family saying she was not lost but instead scared off with a knife wielding man is 4:00, July 15.

Latest: Family: California hiker chased by man with knife


Majority of media reports with SP’s family interview from the hospital bed declaring she was chased by a man with a knife where not until 6:00 news.

RT is on the news within or less than a couple of hours of the very earliest reports saying he believes BT was abducted in an entirely different scenario than SP’s so unrelated to SP’s news, imo.

Surely the one thing we can all agree on is that RT thinks BT was abducted as we can see and hear his own words saying so.
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but LE would know and perhaps RT would be aware also.
 
If RT and BT were familiar with the area, it doesn't seem like they would want to leave their nice rig unattended for long in an isolated location. The whole key thing is a little weird to me in that they had a back pack. Most packs have a hook for your keys or a little zippered pocket or two inside, especially since they weren't going far. If someone had tried to break into their rig, there would likely be signs of it and wouldn't it have set off an audible alarm? IDK JMO.
 
Nerissa said:
Also: RT did not say that BT was going to the RV because she was feeling bad...did he?

He said he asked her to 'stay' (sounds like what you tell a dog) while he took photos. She declined to.

JMO
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I very much doubt he meant as, ‘I ordered her to stay like a dog.’ More like, asking someone to hang on and wait while you complete a task. I don’t think it’s fair to attribute malice to this. IMO
 
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