CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #14

[zwiebel]

I thought the nurse was quite brave, really. That same lady whacked a burglar with her walking stick really, really hard one day.

 

[Opie]

I thought the nurse was quite brave, really. That same lady whacked a burglar with her walking stick really, really hard one day.

Gotta love old people who have spunk. :great:

 

[zwiebel]

Bette Davis and Vince Cable would head my list of spunky seniors.
(Vince Cable is an English politician who kept warning about the banks and was sneered at, just before the crash).

 

[zwiebel]

What am I saying!!?? There is a lady just as spunky out there, who deserves that top spot a lot more than Bette Davis. Sorry Bette, move over.

Fontelle Harrod and Vince Cable would top my list of spunky seniors.

 

[Seajay]

Imo, if there is a mad dash by Bob's daughters making July 27, 2014 'the finish line' that's going to draw a lot of attention from LE and the prosecutors office. Their behavior at that time will speak volumes.

It sure would. I have this vision of them making calendars or charts ticking off the day until they can declare him dead, take his money and "throw Fontelle out on her *advertiser censored*." I visualize them being giddy about this date. It solves all their problems, it takes care of all their worries.

I'm hoping LE becomes a bigger worry about that time. They must feel pretty smug about now that LE isn't even closing in on them. Something needs to happen to jumpstart this investigation. Good thing about murder, there is statute of limitations. And murder for financial gain is capital punishment worthy. MOO

 

[LegallyBrunette]

I am definitely NOT getting at Legallybrunette, because Australians are my favourite people, and I love the way they are so unafraid to ask questions that matter.

I have never seen though, any connection between Fontelle, Mrs Harrod (note the surname, everyone, bestowed by Bob) being somehow 'motivated by money' and Bob's disappearance. As she said herself, if she was anyway halfway decent a 'gold digger' she would have had her name on the 'dotted line', as soon as she married Bob, and would certanly not have waited until she returned to MO, BEFORE he had added her to to his accounts, to disappear him.

It just does not make sense. Strange as it may seem to his daughters, I believe Fontelle truly loved Bob; she wanted him, not his money. I don't think she is staying put in his home, despite all the tribulations, just to get a monthly allowance and for the joy/honour of living in sunny CA, rather than MO. MO sounds quite nice to me. I think she is trying to make a point, in the only way she can. Making sure Bob is not forgotten in a physical presence sense, as well as a financial sense. His money cannot just be spent at will, as long as Mrs Harrod is there, calling people to account, reminding them it is Bob's money, and he is still missing. That what is happening is maybe not 'as per his wishes'.

May actually be in complete opposition, in fact, imo.

Missouri seems all right to me. I think Mrs Harrod is staying put because she is waiting for Bob to come home.

How do you know I'm an Australian? I said I live in Australia. Anyway, what does that have to do with the price of fish.
As to asking questions, watch a senior barrister conduct a deadly cross examination and that is 'asking questions'.

I have not said that Fontelle is responsible or involved in her husband's disappearance. I do question her story which has many inconsistences which can't just be attributed to misreporting. You say you've read my posts on other threads so you will know that I apply a legal mind and forensic analysis to problems. It is important to be objective, one has to be in the law and see both sides.
BTW, by marrying Bob straight away the new Mrs H already 'had her name on the dotted line'.
I understand that LE haven't actually ruled anyone out of the investigation so apart from the family we still have the charming hairdresser and her (2nd or 3rd) hubby with the backhoe business. And the restraining order taken out against her by the family of another elderly gentleman for financial elder abuse.
Here is a question - had Bob hooked up with the 48 year old hairdresser and then disappeared, would everyone still be so sympathetic to the new bride?

FWIW, anecdotal reports in MSM indicate that Bob was suffering from early dementia. It is well reported that he didn't regularly attend his GP so the doctor couldn't give an accurate opinion on his cognition. These things are subtle and noticed by people close to the patient, or detected with proper tests by someone like a psychogeriatrician.
The missing persons report from LE states that he is 5'11" and weighs around 140lbs. That is underweight for his height. He may have perked up a bit after the arrival of Fontelle in his life but to attribute it to her TLC and good home cooking is really embellishing the facts. In any case, she is legally blind and suffers from macular degeneration so I doubt she was capable of too much in the kitchen.
Given that his disappearance was a little over a year since the death of his wife of almost 57 years, he was still grieving, probably depressed and certainly not taking the best possible care of himself. Add to that some cognitive decline and you have a very vulnerable gentleman.
Perhaps when it came to the point of having to clear Georgia's things before the arrival of his new wife it just became too much for him to bear. :twocents:

I don't think she is staying put in his home, despite all the tribulations, just to get a monthly allowance and for the joy/honour of living in sunny CA, rather than MO. MO sounds quite nice to me.

MO might be lovely, but residing in a mobile home in your son's backyard compared to a 4 bed home in CA, well...it's a no brainer.

 

[LegallyBrunette]

If he is declared dead I would think his estate could be challenged by Fontelle. It is public knowledge he intended to change his Will to include Fontelle. She could tie up the assets and money from the estate for hears by challenging the Will in court.

Given the length of their marriage I doubt she'd get much. Don't know what the CA equivalent is of the Testator's Family Maintenance Act but if it were being litigated here judge would take into account the length of the marriage (one month) and she would have had the benefit of occupying the home for at least 7 years, plus any allowances etc.
Unless Bob had already visited his lawyer and given instructions for a new Will, 'public knowledge' means nothing. Even then, the evidence is incidental and not compelling because he could have changed his mind before signing it.
It seems more likely that the wording of the Trust/s will determine what happens to Bob (and Georgia's) assets if/when his fate is known or legally declared deceased.
Gut feeling is that at best, and with a sympathetic judge, Fontelle could end up with the house to occupy for the rest of her life and a modest allowance.:twocents:

 

[gitana1]

I wish I was a lawyer, because then I might know about any change in legal status, if Bob is declared dead and daughters move from being conservators to trustees. At the moment I think maybe - strictly legally - they could not be said to be benefitting from Bob's fortune.

If he is declared dead and that leads to them becoming trustees, then I think it might be very different and they would legally be classed as beneficiaries. I think that could prove important in the event that Bob is found to have been a victim of foul play, depending on who is eventually implicated in the crime.

When Mr. Harrod is declared dead, the daughters will receive most of his estate. Since I only pop in now and again, feel free to message me if you have a specific question!

How do you know I'm an Australian? I said I live in Australia. Anyway, what does that have to do with the price of fish.
As to asking questions, watch a senior barrister conduct a deadly cross examination and that is 'asking questions'.

I have not said that Fontelle is responsible or involved in her husband's disappearance. I do question her story which has many inconsistences which can't just be attributed to misreporting. You say you've read my posts on other threads so you will know that I apply a legal mind and forensic analysis to problems. It is important to be objective, one has to be in the law and see both sides.
BTW, by marrying Bob straight away the new Mrs H already 'had her name on the dotted line'.
I understand that LE haven't actually ruled anyone out of the investigation so apart from the family we still have the charming hairdresser and her (2nd or 3rd) hubby with the backhoe business. And the restraining order taken out against her by the family of another elderly gentleman for financial elder abuse.
Here is a question - had Bob hooked up with the 48 year old hairdresser and then disappeared, would everyone still be so sympathetic to the new bride?

FWIW, anecdotal reports in MSM indicate that Bob was suffering from early dementia. It is well reported that he didn't regularly attend his GP so the doctor couldn't give an accurate opinion on his cognition. These things are subtle and noticed by people close to the patient, or detected with proper tests by someone like a psychogeriatrician.
The missing persons report from LE states that he is 5'11" and weighs around 140lbs. That is underweight for his height. He may have perked up a bit after the arrival of Fontelle in his life but to attribute it to her TLC and good home cooking is really embellishing the facts. In any case, she is legally blind and suffers from macular degeneration so I doubt she was capable of too much in the kitchen.
Given that his disappearance was a little over a year since the death of his wife of almost 57 years, he was still grieving, probably depressed and certainly not taking the best possible care of himself. Add to that some cognitive decline and you have a very vulnerable gentleman.
Perhaps when it came to the point of having to clear Georgia's things before the arrival of his new wife it just became too much for him to bear. :twocents:

MO might be lovely, but residing in a mobile home in your son's backyard compared to a 4 bed home in CA, well...it's a no brainer.

1. zweibel was trying to be nice.
2. Comments by the investigators essentially indicate the hairdresser has been ruled out. The girls lost a suit against the hairdresser in which they claimed she wrongfully took money from him and owed him. In any event, killing the man who gave her money would make no sense as the money would dry up the moment he was no longer there to give it.
3. Mr. Harrod has never been diagnosed with dementia and "Detectives who interviewed his doctor say Bob was of sound mind, Loomis said." http://seattletimes.com/html/living/2010985815_disappeared08.html
The dementia thing was one of the angles (like cold feet or the hairdresser), that the girls tried to float. It didn't work. Please link to the "well reported" contention that Mr. Harrod wasn't regularly seeing his doctor so his doctor could not give an accurate opinion.
4. I live minutes from Mr. Harrod. If he had simply wandered away in a dementia haze, he would have been found. This is not the country. It's well populated suburbs.
5. I think most elderly people would rather reside with their family then in an empty house, hundreds of miles away. And what knowledge do you have about Mrs. Harrod's living conditions back east? How do you know whether her living condition was a good one or not?

Given the length of their marriage I doubt she'd get much. Don't know what the CA equivalent is of the Testator's Family Maintenance Act but if it were being litigated here judge would take into account the length of the marriage (one month) and she would have had the benefit of occupying the home for at least 7 years, plus any allowances etc.
Unless Bob had already visited his lawyer and given instructions for a new Will, 'public knowledge' means nothing. Even then, the evidence is incidental and not compelling because he could have changed his mind before signing it.
It seems more likely that the wording of the Trust/s will determine what happens to Bob (and Georgia's) assets if/when his fate is known or legally declared deceased.
Gut feeling is that at best, and with a sympathetic judge, Fontelle could end up with the house to occupy for the rest of her life and a modest allowance.:twocents:

Not true. Mrs. Harrod is entitled to more than you think, as his wife.

 

[gitana1]

Hey guys, I wanted to add something. As some of you know, I have obtained the court documents from the courthouse. Since I stated that, I have had requests to put the documents online so all can view them. I am reluctant to do that for many reasons, primarily because I have not been immersed enough in the case to feel comfortable enough taking certain steps or divulging certain things. I;m not trying to be cryptic at all, or evasive. I just don't want to do anything that could hurt the investigation in any way or that could hurt Mrs. Harrod.

For example, in the probate case, the girls have demanded that a certain document be sealed and kept secret. That would be the grandson's deal with the girls, regarding the house Mr. Harrod gave him. Once of the arguments for keeping the agreement secret was that Mrs. Harrod was allowing documents to be posted online. Which is laughable. Many people now have those documents.

In any event, there may be some documents that I feel comfortable posting myself but right now, that's not the case. However, anyone can get them. They are unavailable via online but you can order them by mail:

Ordering Copies:

Certification and Copying Fees Schedule
Copies are available per page. If a document is to be certified, an additional fee is required per document.
Exemplifications (Authentications) can be issued if requested
Clerk's Certificates of Facts may be purchased for a fee.
You may request copies by mail.

Requests by Mail

You must indicate “Probate Operations” on the envelope to ensure proper delivery; if the request is not addressed properly it may be returned to you.

Send your written request, including a self-addressed, stamped return envelope with sufficient postage. List the form number or the exact title of the form in your request. Mail to:
Superior Court of California, County of Orange
Probate Operations
341 The City Drive
Orange, CA 92868
You will need to include the following in your request:

• Case number
• Case name
• Indicate “entire file” or specify the documents by title
• Specify the date filed (if unknown, give approximate year of filing)
• Make check payable to “Clerk of the Court”
• Include a self-addressed return envelope with sufficient postage for the return of copies

http://www.occourts.org/directory/probate/general-information.html


Here are the relevant case numbers: 30-2009-00297798-PR-TR-LJC (the trust case) and 30-2009-00291267-PR-CE-LJC (the conservatorship case).



30-2008-00068771-PR-OP-LJC (Georgia Harrod's safekeeping will case. But note that I saw no evidence of recorded documents in that case).


The title for the conservatorship case is HARROD - CONSERVATORSHIP.


The title for the probate case is HARROD - TRUST.


The title for Georgia's case is HARROD-SAFEKEEPING WILL.



In order to know what documents you need and thus how much money you should send to the clerk for your copies, (don't forget return postage costs and boxes or large mailers for the documents), you can find a list of each documents by searching for the case you want to access, here: https://ocapps.occourts.org/ProbPubv2/Home.do

It's 50 cents per page and do not get certified copies. You don't need them certified and that is an extra $25.00 per document.

I hope that helps, guys.

ETA: The total amount of documents for both files is about two reams of copy paper. So weigh that and figure out postage for that. That's what you will need to send to the court if you want the whole file. It's MUCH cheaper to order single docs.!!!

 

[suzyq211]

I hope that helps, guys.

<snipped>

Thank you, Gitana!!!!

 

[zwiebel]

My answers in bold:

How do you know I'm an Australian? I said I live in Australia. Anyway, what does that have to do with the price of fish.
As to asking questions, watch a senior barrister conduct a deadly cross examination and that is 'asking questions'.

Hope I didn't give the impression I was sleuthing you - definitely not the case! Some posts and posters just stick in my head, and I shouldn't have presumed you're Australian when I'm a Brit living in Germany. It was the cheers that did it!.....Absolutely zilch to do with the price of fish - or as us true veggies would say - potatoes.

I have not said that Fontelle is responsible or involved in her husband's disappearance. I do question her story which has many inconsistences which can't just be attributed to misreporting. You say you've read my posts on other threads so you will know that I apply a legal mind and forensic analysis to problems. It is important to be objective, one has to be in the law and see both sides.

See and be objective yes. But I wouldn't expect say, a defence attorney, to STATE an objective point of view while defending their client, for example. The main inconsistency that seems to keep cropping up is that 60- year memory about hair length. Sigh. One explanation why Bob might have thought this length hair In Fontelle's old pic was long:
http://seattletimes.com/html/living/2010985815_disappeared08.html
was because for 50 plus years he'd been surrounded by women with this length hair:http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9041167&postcount=186
The first Mrs Harrod's hair was even shorter, almost a crew cut, but I'm not allowed to link the pics.

BTW, by marrying Bob straight away the new Mrs H already 'had her name on the dotted line'.

I meant getting her actual name on the actual dotted line of Bob's will.

I understand that LE haven't actually ruled anyone out of the investigation so apart from the family we still have the charming hairdresser and her (2nd or 3rd) hubby with the backhoe business. And the restraining order taken out against her by the family of another elderly gentleman for financial elder abuse.

I don't think LE have publicly stated they have ruled anyone out of their investigation. It's my opinion they have though, largely because of the following LE statements:'The hairdresser has a solid alibi'. Compared to what they said about son-in-law, last known person to have seen Bob. 'Has receipts verifying he was at Home Depot around the time he said he was'.
Notice there is no mention if that was around the time Bob disappeared, or an alibi.

Here is a question - had Bob hooked up with the 48 year old hairdresser and then disappeared, would everyone still be so sympathetic to the new bride?

Yes. Unless she started saying horrible things such as Bob was 'selfish and conditional' or a 'swinger' or collected dentures 'because he thought they had gold in them.'
I found that reference by daughter horrific, by the way. It invokes the holocaust to my mind. Maybe she's not aware of the associations, or maybe my location makes me sensitive.

FWIW, anecdotal reports in MSM indicate that Bob was suffering from early dementia. It is well reported that he didn't regularly attend his GP so the doctor couldn't give an accurate opinion on his cognition. These things are subtle and noticed by people close to the patient, or detected with proper tests by someone like a psychogeriatrician.

Bob's neighbour said Bob was seeing his doctor again and Bob was not mentally impaired. Bob's doctor firmly stated Bob was of sound mind. Bob's letters to Fontelle were extremely well written and coherent. Bob appeared fine in videos. Social services did not seek any care proceedings after visiting Bob.

The missing persons report from LE states that he is 5'11" and weighs around 140lbs. That is underweight for his height. He may have perked up a bit after the arrival of Fontelle in his life but to attribute it to her TLC and good home cooking is really embellishing the facts. In any case, she is legally blind and suffers from macular degeneration so I doubt she was capable of too much in the kitchen.

Ummm. I worked closely with totally and partially blind people for a long period. Many of the ladies had small scars on the backs of their hands, from taking things out of hot ovens all the time. True, many of the men did not. I think that was because they didn't want to cook though, not that they couldn't, because they were blind.

Given that his disappearance was a little over a year since the death of his wife of almost 57 years, he was still grieving, probably depressed and certainly not taking the best possible care of himself. Add to that some cognitive decline and you have a very vulnerable gentleman.
Perhaps when it came to the point of having to clear Georgia's things before the arrival of his new wife it just became too much for him to bear. :twocents:

Bob's best friend and neighbour who saw Bob much more frequently than his daughters, said Bob had been all of the above. But insisted that all turned completely around the moment Fontelle came on the scene. If Bob was going to run away because of nagging about clearing 'clutter', he'd have done it long before. He had plenty of that from his daughters, according to what they've said.

MO might be lovely, but residing in a mobile home in your son's backyard compared to a 4 bed home in CA, well...it's a no brainer.

I believe most of Fontelle's family are in MO. With the utmost confidence, I can state that if you'd offered my Mom the choice between a hole in the ground near her grandchildren, or a mansion far away, she'd have taken the hole. If I was handed Bob's house free, tomorrow, on condition I lived in it for 6 months with my dog, I'd turn it down flat. Instantly. I've seen those open plan front gardens. My life would be an absolute misery of worrying the dog would disappear everytime I opened the door, or - unbearable - he'd be run over. I left a very nice house to live in this ruin because of just that. No money in the world is worth the loss of a life to me. I just don't get/care about 'good' locations or 'much better' houses. Imo, Fontelle's the same. She's in Bob's house for other reasons, and because Bob wanted her to be there.

ETA. Sorry about the stars that have appeared, LegallyBrunette, it's always happening to me. I just don't know why.

 

[Cubby]

Hey guys, I wanted to add something. As some of you know, I have obtained the court documents from the courthouse. Since I stated that, I have had requests to put the documents online so all can view them. I am reluctant to do that for many reasons, primarily because I have not been immersed enough in the case to feel comfortable enough taking certain steps or divulging certain things. I;m not trying to be cryptic at all, or evasive. I just don't want to do anything that could hurt the investigation in any way or that could hurt Mrs. Harrod.

For example, in the probate case, the girls have demanded that a certain document be sealed and kept secret. That would be the grandson's deal with the girls, regarding the house Mr. Harrod gave him. Once of the arguments for keeping the agreement secret was that Mrs. Harrod was allowing documents to be posted online. Which is laughable. Many people now have those documents.

In any event, there may be some documents that I feel comfortable posting myself but right now, that's not the case. However, anyone can get them. They are unavailable via online but you can order them by mail:

Ordering Copies:

Certification and Copying Fees Schedule
Copies are available per page. If a document is to be certified, an additional fee is required per document.
Exemplifications (Authentications) can be issued if requested
Clerk's Certificates of Facts may be purchased for a fee.
You may request copies by mail.

Requests by Mail

You must indicate “Probate Operations” on the envelope to ensure proper delivery; if the request is not addressed properly it may be returned to you.

Send your written request, including a self-addressed, stamped return envelope with sufficient postage. List the form number or the exact title of the form in your request. Mail to:
Superior Court of California, County of Orange
Probate Operations
341 The City Drive
Orange, CA 92868
You will need to include the following in your request:

• Case number
• Case name
• Indicate “entire file” or specify the documents by title
• Specify the date filed (if unknown, give approximate year of filing)
• Make check payable to “Clerk of the Court”
• Include a self-addressed return envelope with sufficient postage for the return of copies

http://www.occourts.org/directory/probate/general-information.html


Here are the relevant case numbers: 30-2009-00297798-PR-TR-LJC (the trust case) and 30-2009-00291267-PR-CE-LJC (the conservatorship case).



30-2008-00068771-PR-OP-LJC (Georgia Harrod's safekeeping will case. But note that I saw no evidence of recorded documents in that case).


The title for the conservatorship case is HARROD - CONSERVATORSHIP.


The title for the probate case is HARROD - TRUST.


The title for Georgia's case is HARROD-SAFEKEEPING WILL.



In order to know what documents you need and thus how much money you should send to the clerk for your copies, (don't forget return postage costs and boxes or large mailers for the documents), you can find a list of each documents by searching for the case you want to access, here: https://ocapps.occourts.org/ProbPubv2/Home.do

It's 50 cents per page and do not get certified copies. You don't need them certified and that is an extra $25.00 per document.

I hope that helps, guys.

ETA: The total amount of documents for both files is about two reams of copy paper. So weigh that and figure out postage for that. That's what you will need to send to the court if you want the whole file. It's MUCH cheaper to order single docs.!!!

Thank you, gitana. I hope this puts to bed for once and for all the: they are going to be posted, they are not going to be posted, they are, they aren't, they are, they aren't, type of thing.

Thank you for providing the address for those wishing to obtain the info.

 

[Cubby]

30-2008-00068771-PR-OP-LJC (Georgia Harrod's safekeeping will case. But note that I saw no evidence of recorded documents in that case).

Respectfully snipped and BBM. What does this mean? Does it mean Georgia's will is not on file?

 

[zwiebel]

It does sound like it, doesn't it? As though the case is there and either no documents have been submitted into it, or they have been removed? But believe's put extracts of it in the discussion group, so it is/ was around sometime.

Or would these be additional case documents to the original will?..............I just don't know. I flipping hate filing systems. Especially anything involving numbers.

 

[LegallyBrunette]

Re my post earlier, about Missouri seeming a nice place to me; I don't want anyone to think I'm knocking California. That seems a nice place to me too. Just not with Bob missing. I can't imagine visiting there without looking for him the whole time.

If it were me, I'd be back to wherever my children and grandchildren were. Can't comment about MO, never been there. Could say lots about TX

 

[zwiebel]

I think Fontelle has been trying to split herself between the two, and get back to see her grandchildren as much as possible. I think she went back for the birth of a grandchild once, but Bob's daughters found out - no idea how, unless they had someone watching or spying on her - and them seemed to be using that to try and get her out of her marital home, imo.

As though if Mrs Harrod wasn't in the house, every day year in and year out, she had no right to live there.

 

[Seajay]

Wouldn't Fontelle be considered as being married to him this whole time he's been missing??? I mean if he is declared dead in 2014, 5 years after he disappeared, wouldn't the DOD be 2014 or whenever the courts legally declare him dead and not have the death date be retroactive back to July 27, 2009, the day he disppeared??? So when Bob is declared dead by the daughters via the courts, won't she have been married to him for 5 years?? Not one month??

 

[zwiebel]

That's a good point. I'd have thought that would be the case. Unless there is something or other about they have got to have been living together. And I have read something about a court case involving just that issue and now I've forgotten the names. You'll know who I mean when I describe them, hopefully;

She was a very buxom blonde dancer? Married a wheelchair-bound senior billionaire but hardly lived with him at all, then he died and she began a legal battle for his money. It's gone on for years and in the meantime her son OD'd and died in her hospital room while visiting her after she'd had a baby, then she OD'd and died soon after. And two or three men claimed paternity to the baby.

I think. Sounds too far-fetched now. Anyway, I'm sure there were loads of legal battles about the length of time she had actually spent living with hubby.

 

[zwiebel]

I still can't remember that name. Anita? Nicola?

 

[anonymused]

I still can't remember that name. Anita? Nicola?

Are you being facetious?

It was Anna Nicole Smith. She was a Playboy model among many other things, she married him and had her own career. She fought that she loved him and never got a penny, but it didn't seem to bother her. I still think she did actually love him... in her own weird way. SHe was a troubled girl with a tragic ending.