CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #3

[kingsway]

Re: missing clothes. If she went into the tank voluntarily, she probably would have removed her clothes first so she wouldn't be a sopping mess afterwards. That tank is right on the edge of the building and, 15 stories up during winter, it was probably windy. If her clothes were blown away, they're long gone. A homeless person probably picked them up off the street.

I keep wanting to give LE the benefit of the doubt and trust that they really think it was most likely an accident. That being said, I've been trying to figure out how this could happen accidentally, and be somewhat obvious as an accident, since it doesn't seem to have raised many red flags with LE. So, if I'm a young woman traveling alone, what am I doing on the roof? Probably checking out the view, maybe taking pictures to share online. Personally, I'm not sure I'd ever hang out on top of a water tank, but I might want to reach the hotel's highest peak, which would be that room next to the tanks. I'd probably eventually sit on a ledge to take in the view.

The ONLY thing that would get me inside a tank is if something extremely important fell into that open hatch. Considering there's still no lid, and the Cecil is one of the nastiest, irresponsible hotels I've ever heard of, I don't doubt that tank never had a lid.

Perhaps while she sat on the ledge above the tanks, she dropped her camera? Or her phone? If it was something important enough, is it possible she (being alone) decided to undress and jump in and out as quickly as possible to retrieve the item?

While in the tank (diving for the item), the pipes may have started suctioning and caught her by the hair, drowning her. If LE finds her head down, feet up, with her hair stuck in the pipe, AND with water in her lungs, that definitely looks like an accidental drowning, not a murder.

I'm sure it had a lid. The other 3 had lids, so why not this one - the main tank. I wouldn't be surprised if someone had decided to take a leak or a dump inside one of those water tanks either.

If it was open already, and she somehow dropped something valuable inside, going into a tank with no visible way out is not something anybody would do. It's an extremely unlikely scenario that her clothes blew off down the street. Also, where is her room key/card?

If the police do decide it is an accidental death, I hope they reveal their evidence publicly for scrutiny.

 

[broccoli]

I'm not sure if she was face up or face down.... I am not sure if it would matter, right? I guess it depends how strong the suction/pressure is in one of those tanks. If it's strong enough, wouldn't a body get tossed around in there?

 

[broccoli]

I'm sure it had a lid. The other 3 had lids, so why not this one - the main tank. I wouldn't be surprised if someone had decided to take a leak or a dump inside one of those water tanks either.

If it was open already, and she somehow dropped something valuable inside, going into a tank with no visible way out is not something anybody would do. It's an extremely unlikely scenario that her clothes blew off down the street. Also, where is her room key/card?

If the police do decide it is an accidental death, I hope they reveal their evidence publicly for scrutiny.

Good points, and I totally agree: I REALLY hope they elaborate if they officially call this one an accident.

 

[ErnestBorgnine]

Still looks very creepy and skid row to me. :twocents:

In retrospect it is creepy. The people who created Stay really went a long way to make the place seem hip. It was the halls and elevators that I found scary. I am a single girl, but much older than Elisa.

It's never going to be a safe building IMO. Mostly because it has way more rooms than what you can see from the outside or pictures. I think that the sheer size of the building and number of rooms makes it an ideal location for a murder.

Something just hit me. She might have been picked because in death she would be fairly light and easier to bring up to the roof. Gross, but I continue to believe this was nearly completely planned. The killer had thought about this.

 

[broccoli]

Does anyone have a link to reports of LE searching Cecil's roof (before Elisa was found)? Google is only turning up a bunch of "eewgrosswater" results for me.

 

[kingsway]

Something just hit me. She might have been picked because in death she would be fairly light and easier to bring up to the roof. Gross, but I continue to believe this was nearly completely planned. The killer had thought about this.

If this were the case, then there has to be a motive to kill someone. Either a random killing, or killing someone to produce a desired effect. Someone had a theory about one of the long-term tenants killing Elisa so that the Hotel wouldn't be able to raise rates (thus making it unaffordable for them).

Another reason for killing someone is to prevent identification of a crime, whether it be drug dealing, or her own rape. There's also revenge as a reason, though it's hard to imagine Elisa making someone angry - maybe rejecting a guy's advances?

I wonder if DNA evidence of rape can still be detected after 20 days in water. Or DNA evidence under her fingernails.

If I were a police detective, this would be the type of case I would live for - a classic whodunnit case.

 

[fred&edna]

I cant' recall. There have been so many different stories, so little known facts.
If it's an accidental death, why is LE being so secretive? :what:

Reported facts on the case (might be helpful):
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200039"]CA/Canada - Elisa Lam (21) - Los Angeles - 31-Jan-2013 -TIMELINE & MEDIA ONLY - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[noodled1]

So many unknowns in this case.

It might have been an accident but probably not. Only way I see this being an accident is if she voluntarily climbed in the tank and couldn't get back out. 10 foot tall tank with 7 feet of water in it could have left her incapable of climbing her way out. She grows tired, cold and drowns. If it was an accident then I doubt she was alone, there could very well be a witness to her death that's afraid to come forward.

I view her on the elevator as goofing around, playing. I don't believe she was under duress. That's just my take. Either way accident or murder I think she was having a good time when she was on that elevator and in the hallway.

What happened from there who knows at this time.

 

[ErnestBorgnine]

Okay, let's consider the basic options; she's alone or someone's there in the hall.

If she's alone, then she's crazy, or on drugs, or ghosts. I don't really believe any of those. If this was the case, I don't think anyone would really be making a big deal about this case.

Which means someone's in the hall.

To me she looks to be doing what people sometimes do when they think they are alone, and that's talk to themselves. She could have been reliving a moment and was re-enacting it. I have done that. Have you seen hours of elevator videos? That's the only people that can tell us whether her behaviour is odd/different from the vast majority of people they see alone in elevators

 

[Xavier]

If you look to the left when she is standing outside of the elevator and begins to make those weird motions look at her hair when she gets back in... Her hair was being pulled by someone who was out of sight of the camera... Those motions were from her struggling.. not her being on dope! Check it out and if you think we're right spread the word. It was amurder


there is somebody else there. Look at 2:24 mark on the full video. When she turns left to leave in front of the elevator there is another foot there that turns and follows her. Who's foot is that ?

Somebody else was there with Elisa.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TjVBpyTeZM"]Elisa Lam Video - YouTube[/ame]

 

[nacoan]

Hi, I'm a newbie here (I found this site when someone on a different forum where they were briefly discussing the elisa lam case linked to it). I've been reading the pages and pages of posts and have some thoughts on it.



First, I think this definitely wasn't suicide as some people were suggesting.
-Elisa had plans to continue onto Santa Cruz. She seemed like she was looking forward to the rest of her trip.

-She was keeping in contact with friends and family and didn't seem like she was extremely depressed at this point in the trip

-Physically I think it was impossible. How would she have closed the lid of the tank after entering it? She would have had to had superhuman strength to grip the edge of the tank opening with one arm while reaching up towards the lid with the other arm. Most people, especially girls don't have that kind of upper body strength in most cases (I'm about her proportions and definitely wouldn't be able to do that). And this is assuming the tank was full of enough water to be able to float near the surface and suspend yourself near the opening. If it was only 1/2 or 3/4 full I don't see how she would be able to reach up to the opening hatch. However this is assuming that the tank lid was actually closed when the maintenance guy found her.

-In addition, where are her clothes? She would have been having to walk naked around the hotel or have thrown her clothes off of the roof. But if she is modest like her friend that posted earlier about her shoes said, I don't think she would have gone naked into a water tank.

-A water tank is definitely not what I would call an inviting place to die. If it was night time she probably wouldn't have even been able to see anything inside (it would look like a pitch lack hole). Why would you drop into a pitch black huge empty space, naked? Wouldn't the thought of being in a black hole with no way out feel claustrophobic?

-I also don't think it is a suicide due to the manner of the death. If you look historically like in medieval times, one of the worst crimes a person could commit was poisoning the town well/water supply. To kill yourself in a water tank means you're knowingly contaminating the water for all the residents of the hotel. This would be an act of anger/aggression/hostility towards the residents of the hotel/people in general. Even though Elisa wrote about being depressed, I never sensed any particularly excessive bitterness/resentment towards others. She seemed introspective not like the type to lash out. I also think, given her penchant for writing, she would've left some sort of note.



I think Elisa was murdered (or deliberately left to die).
This is what I think happened. In the elevator video, it seemed like she was playfully interacting with someone, possibly playing hide and seek (That's why she was poking her head out and jumping back in to hide, and also why she was pushing multiple buttons to hide her location). I think she was playing with someone who was around her age and seemed trustworthy, either a friend she recently made at the hotel (could have been a hotel worker she made friends with), a friend from an online meetup, or a friend of a friend.
Somehow they ended up hanging out on the roof. Probably just to keep hanging out, take photos, look at the stars, drink, I don't know. But I don't think she was forced onto the roof. She could've screamed for her life but she didn't (unless she did but people just ignored her) if she was being forced. I just know if I was being forced onto the roof I would assume the worst and try to get the help of the people on the hall rather than go to the secondary location with a threatening person. I don't think she was too incapacitated at this point because she had to have been able to climb the fire escape herself. She might have been under the influence of some drug though that she took either willingly, or unknowingly (I think she was probably slipped something).
Once they were on the roof, after some time, she succumbed to the drug and went unconscious. She may/may not have been sexually assaulted but she probably was since she was naked. Her assailant carried her and dropped her into the water and closed her into it. She may have woken up in the water or she may have immediately drowned or she may have already been dead. But even if she was alive she would've died within a few hours due to the cold water and her weakened state (at her body weight she probably had very little fat to help keep her warm).


To address some points people have made:
-I don't think she would've been hard to carry. I read somewhere here she was about 5'4" and 115 lbs. I'm about the same size. My boyfriend can easily walk around with me in his arms or on his back and he's just an average sized guy. The assailants adrenaline rush would have made him even stronger (you read in the news about mother's lifting cars when their baby is trapped under and stuff like that). Fear/panic can give people superhuman strength. So I don't think she had to have been the one to climb up the water tank.

-Diaz's claims that he heard a loud bang that night: I think he was either making this up (people can either do this deliberately or unintentionally have a false memory), or he actually did hear a noise and that was Elisa's body hitting the water or possibly her thrashing around inside if she woke up. Or it could have been the suctioning at the bottom that another poster mentione earlier.

-People have been talking a lot about her not wearing glasses. I don't think this is very significant. She might've been wearing contacts, or her vision might not have been so bad that she couldn't function normally without them. For example, if it was night time and she was just going to the toilet she might not have bothered putting them on.

-I do not think she was on her way to the shower. Her shoes didnt look like what a girl would wear in the shower (probably would wear flip flops) and she had no shampoo/wash cloth/towel/brush/change of clothes that a girl would normally take with her.



Who the killer was:
Like I said before, I think this was someone she trusted. I think she followed them onto the roof willingly (although her decision making skills were probably influenced by the drug). Still, to accept a drink/food/pill from a person, she had to trust them to some extent.
I think that it was someone she met at the hotel and quickly bonded with (or someone associated with that person who she trusted by association) or a friend she met online and was supposed to meet in LA. For her to feel comfortable with the person, they are probably in her age group and pretty normal seeming.
Also, I think they are pretty smart because they were able to think to put her in the water tank (hidden from view, destroys evidence, unlikely to be discovered). If it was some junkie from skid row I think they would've left her body out on the roof top or thrown her off the roof in a panic. This person is probably fairly strong to be able to carry her up the water tank. Since this person is familiar enough with the hotel to know the layout this well and how to get onto the roof and confident not to be discovered, I am strongly leaning towards that it is someone either staying there for a prolonged period of time (by this I mean someone who'd been there at least a week or even a log term resident) or a worker at the hotel who she came to trust.

 

[Theforeigner]

One thing I belive LE should keep in mind is that there might have been some person with a pathological obsession with serial killers, such as Richard Ramirez, also called The Night Stalker, who apparently lived at The Cecil Hotel, at floor 14, back in 1985, living at the Cecil Hotel at the time Elisa Lam was staying there, and who could possibly have planed to commit a murder in order to follow the path of his idol.

I actually saw a documentary at norwegian television a cupple of day ago, Feb 25, 2013 (Investigation Discovery by CBS Eye 2008) (I live in Denmark, but can watch Norwegian TV) and in this documentary it was stated that Richard Ramirez aka The Night Stalker, lived at The Cecil Hotel at the 14th floor, back in 1985 (possibly longer).

I couldn't find that documentary on youtube but I found another Youtube documentary which also stated that Richard Ramirez aka The Night Stalker lived at the Cecil Hotel:

At 27:00 minutes into the video you can see that Richard Ramirez, aka The Night Stalker, lived at Cecil Hotel, there is a image of the Cecil Hotel, and the voice-over says:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUgW_dQU6JU&playnext=1&list=PLCvI8WFgmEOeJIgw-3unNFt-sPQyFV8tv&feature=results_main"]Serial Killers - Richard Ramirez - The Night Stalker - YouTube[/ame]

"Yet the killer was living undetected less than a quater mile from police headquaters in a cheep roominghouse in downtown LA, he'd been there since leaving El Paso 1978, since then he had become a petty thief and a drug adict."

Also the serial killer Jack Unterweger stayed at The Cecil Hotel in 1991 while murdering L.A. streetwalkers .

http://www.laobserved.com/intell/2007/12/austrian_serial_killer_hunted.php

Austrian serial killer hunted near the Cecil Hotel downtown

By Denise Hamilton | December 1, 2007 7:15 PM

Quote:

"Austrian serial killer Jack Unterweger stayed there while murdering L.A. streetwalkers in 1991"



I am NOT saying that there is necessarily any connection to thise serial killer cases, however I DO belive that LE should have thise cases in mind when they investigate those persons who was living at the hotel at the time of Elisa Lam's death...

 

[princessofmirth]

In retrospect it is creepy. The people who created Stay really went a long way to make the place seem hip. It was the halls and elevators that I found scary. I am a single girl, but much older than Elisa.

It's never going to be a safe building IMO. Mostly because it has way more rooms than what you can see from the outside or pictures. I think that the sheer size of the building and number of rooms makes it an ideal location for a murder.

Something just hit me. She might have been picked because in death she would be fairly light and easier to bring up to the roof. Gross, but I continue to believe this was nearly completely planned. The killer had thought about this.

I figured this too: especially because of Elisa's outgoing nature, it seemed as if she made friends easily. I could see her getting a call from staff or someone she met at the hotel and arranging to meet this person. This would have to be someone with an intimate knowledge of security and outlay of the building. Maybe they had a drink together, and perp saw his chance to overpower her with a laced drink.
I honestly believe that she was killed in on the roof and possibly her body hidden in either the elevator room, or the power room. I can't explain yet why the dogs didn't pick up her scent, but it is likely they were not cadaver dogs and not trained to detect a corpse. The perp got anxious with the police dogs, and hid the body in the cistern, reasoning that any scent would possibly be disguised in the water. This is what I THINK happened, I'm merely postulating, I agree that this has to be an inside job. Someone covered their tracks very well.
Sorry about the book!!!

 

[noodled1]

If you look to the left when she is standing outside of the elevator and begins to make those weird motions look at her hair when she gets back in... Her hair was being pulled by someone who was out of sight of the camera... Those motions were from her struggling.. not her being on dope! Check it out and if you think we're right spread the word. It was amurder


there is somebody else there. Look at 2:24 mark on the full video. When she turns left to leave in front of the elevator there is another foot there that turns and follows her. Who's foot is that ?

Somebody else was there with Elisa.

She runs her hands through her hair and that's her own foot when she pivots to go down the hall

 

[Borris]

I'm not sure if she was face up or face down.... I am not sure if it would matter, right? I guess it depends how strong the suction/pressure is in one of those tanks. If it's strong enough, wouldn't a body get tossed around in there?

Yes it would get moved around on the bottom a bit, not violently, what drains out drains in. After weeks, the hair would break. The body would bloat and float.

I agree that face down would look like an accidental drowning, but face up would look like she was still alive in the water and trying to breath, if her body had been found the next day.

----

Was she staying at Stay or Cecil? I saw a photo of her matched with the Stay segment of the Cecil Hotel.

Maybe she had some wine and got lost into the wrong building at night during her insomnia.

 

[broccoli]

This is off our current topic, but I found this article about Search & Rescue (SAR) dogs (I was searching because I'm curious if/how the dogs could have missed Elisa during their initial search, when she had only been missing for a few days).

"Cadaver and water-search dogs are the only types specifically trained to scent for human remains, although all SAR dogs will alert to remains if they find them." It sounds like SAR (when it's just a missing persons case) would use either a tracking dog or an air scent dog. A tracking dog would probably be useless, as the entire scene (hotel) would have been contaminated with other scents/people. An air-scent dog wouldn't have been able to smell a body submerged in water inside a (concrete? steel?) water tank. So, it's very probable that her body was in the tank all along and the dogs just couldn't sense it. You need HIGHLY specialized dogs to pick up the scent of a corpse underwater, AND through concrete, and there's no way they would have brought in such a dog when it was still considered a "missing persons" case as opposed to homicide.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/zoology/mammals/sar-dog2.htm

 

[mjak]

If you look to the left when she is standing outside of the elevator and begins to make those weird motions look at her hair when she gets back in... Her hair was being pulled by someone who was out of sight of the camera... Those motions were from her struggling.. not her being on dope! Check it out and if you think we're right spread the word. It was amurder


there is somebody else there. Look at 2:24 mark on the full video. When she turns left to leave in front of the elevator there is another foot there that turns and follows her. Who's foot is that ?

Somebody else was there with Elisa.

Elisa Lam Video - YouTube

I believe I see what you are talking about but it is on 2:29 as she turns left and is no longer visible it appears a dark shoe turns after her. Good catch!

 

[noodled1]

Still looks very creepy and skid row to me. :twocents:

The skid row area is actually quite few blocks to the east of the hotel. Still a creepy hotel but not part or near skid row...

 

[broccoli]

Yes it would get moved around on the bottom a bit, not violently, what drains out drains in. After weeks, the hair would break. The body would bloat and float.

I agree that face down would look like an accidental drowning, but face up would look like she was still alive in the water and trying to breath, if her body had been found the next day.

----

Was she staying at Stay or Cecil? I saw a photo of her matched with the Stay segment of the Cecil Hotel.

Maybe she had some wine and got lost into the wrong building at night during her insomnia.

They're all in the same building, just different lobbies. "Stay" consists of a few floors of the Cecil (I can't remember which, and I don't want to give misinformation). Both Stay guests and Cecil guests would use the same elevators.

I'm pretty sure she was staying in Stay. One of her entries on Tumblr talks about the gaudy place right next to where she's staying - lots of art deco. Look at Cecil's lounge - tons of art deco. I think at the time she posted that, she didn't realize it was all the same building/hotel.

 

[Borris]

I believe I see what you are talking about but it is on 2:29 as she turns left and is no longer visible it appears a dark shoe turns after her. Good catch!

If there is someone with video editing software, would you mind altering the shadows/reflections in the hallway in front of the elevator to help us see if two forms are moving or if it's just one?