CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #5

[Peter Brendt]

No, they don't do that. They add chlorine to the water. Every once in a while they might flush it and put in fresh water and chlorine, which is what they did after her body was found.

I have a water holder on our counter. It is a couple years old now. I pour water from plastic jugs into it for drinking and cooking. I have never had to rinse it out or clean it. No mold or anything. No chlorine in it either.

If you think about it, the pipes that bring the water into your house and the plumbing in your house don't get a scrub down from you probably ever right? Wouldn't even be possible to do. But you still drink that water. I agree it is gross. But it seems to be an accepted part of modern life.

Okay, I'm a little confused here. There are four tanks, so it's entirely possible to empty one while three stay in use, climb in and scrub the empty one. No problem with that. Opposite to pipes.
But now, let me see. You have a tank, it's filled with fresh water from the pipes. It has a certain fluctuation because people use water and we talk here several hundred rooms full of people, so lets say, it's some big fluctuation. Now ... you go, because you want to clean a tank from something in the water by scrubbing it down with water form the very same pipes? Huh? The same bacteria, the same fluorides, the same everything, that is in that tank comes also out of the pipes ... no win-situation on the cleaning front.

 

[Peter Brendt]

It seems there are quite a few contributors here that are in L.A. I am. I wonder if we should consider doing our own informal group trip to the Cecil? I'm leaving town on the 11th for the rest of the month, but if it's before then or in April I'd be in, provided I didn't have to be alone at any time in there (I got too freaked out on my one solo visit). :blushing:

Lots of photos, PLEASEEEEEEE! To write good profiles, one needs a feeling for the place ...

 

[MesaVerde]

Aw, you're the best! (For the record, I'm an adult male with a lot of worldly experience. No one would guess from my outward experience that I'm such a chicken. I hate to admit this on this forum of so many rational thinkers, but It's really the whole possibility of ghosts and the paranormal that freaks me out!)

That is adorable. My boyfriend is the same way. He is a big football watching manly man. But he can't sleep with the lights off certain hours of the night and stuff like that. I am about half his weight. I make up for my size deficit with pure spunk. He also worries alot about what people think about him all the time and I could care less.

 

[RhiannonR]

I would agree with the person who wrote that. I think that a criminal who is thinking quite often about how to kill people and where to put their bodies afterwards would think of a water tank in that way.

But I don't think it is a place where a person would think to put themselves in most cases. Except maybe people old enough to have watched Petticoat Junction--they might like to cut the top off and make a big jacuzzi.

But if the killer is nuts, then "nuts" is the operative word here!

 

[MesaVerde]

Okay, I'm a little confused here.

I am confused, too. Can you explain another way what you mean?

 

[FiveFelines]

As also pointed out in the profile notes in thread #2, psychopathic behavior is not limited to serial killers (sometimes, I think, it becomes more popular by the day, but that's maybe only me). So this would also include drugs (recreational drugs used by the unsub), petty crimes and a general tendency to do forbidden things. So, maybe ten people watch the sunset from the roof, or have a beer up there, but if you look for y psychopath, chances are, he is up there with him. Because it's forbidden and he can. And a history of petty crimes would anyway enforce scouting behavior because you never know what kind of place you need next.

Somewhat OT, but have you read "The Psychopath Test" by Jon Ronson? Fascinating--and definitely shows that psychopaths aren't just serial killers: [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Psychopath_Test"]The Psychopath Test - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

 

[Robert White]

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But since you brought it up, I'll give you my take on her analysis:

No fixed plans? She planned specific dates for different cities. As for local plans, we don't know about that, but she went to touristy places like the San Diego Zoo and Conan O'Brien show. Also, many people don't have fixed plans when they travel, especially when you are young.

This doesn't mean much. Yes, Schizophrenia can often first present itself as depression, but that doesn't mean that people who are depressed are likely to develop Schizophrenia. Even if 100% of people with Schizophrenia patients had depression previously, it wouldn't tell us if 0.00001% of people who are depressed develop Schizophrenia. "The stress of school" is pure speculation.

School as the cause is speculation. However, there is no single stressor that can be ruled out.

These are pretty much the same point. Her behavior is unknown at this point. You can say that people who are experiencing psychosis often display this behavior, but that doesn't mean people who are normal don't exhibit this behavior under certain conditions. Again, why did she wait for the elevator to close? If she was intent on going down in the video, why go up to the roof?

It's more likely that she was peeking out the door to see if anyone was holding it open. You can even argue that hiding in the corner may not have been hiding at all, that it was to get a good angle to see if someone was pressing the button outside.

I'll interject my professional opinion here. Yes, we do not know whether Elisa was sane or not during the video. However, given my analysis, along with colleagues, we have all stated that no rational individual would act that way in the elevator (obviously there are exceptions) under duress the same way Elisa did. If you consider the whole video, there are aspects that do not add up to a threat being present.

Speculation. Also, "probably" is a strong word. Why didn't she hide in her room? Her closet? In the bathroom? Go to the lobby? A water tank on the roof is not something people, sane or insane, would think of. How did she even know they were accessible? If the water tank was two feet away from the elevator, it would be more plausible.

I agree with this, and I've argued this before.

We're talking about probabilities here. Almost everything is possible, but her going crazy and putting herself in a water tank is highly unlikely, without further evidence. So is your theory on "sex games gone wrong". Now, if she was experiencing psychosis, it would be more plausible that someone took advantage of her in her mental state, than to assume that her death was a direct result.

Everything is probable. However, what I've read time and time again on here is that people believe or just know Elisa wouldn't do something. That is complete and utter nonsense. As a professional, if you want to get into these types of fields, you should just throw that out the window. Because you don't know, and you better be able to consider that people do things that their friends or family would never suspect. I've seen it in literally dozens of terrorism cases - and that is fact, not speculation.

I already posted one theory on how her behavior in the elevator could be explained, at the beginning of this thread. Feel free to rip it apart, I actually would encourage it.

I could not find your theory. If you have a moment link it up to me, and I'd be glad to go over it and either agree or debate it with you.

Thanks mate.

 

[Peter Brendt]

That sounds like a great idea. If I weren't in NorCal, I'd be up for a visit. However, I wonder how the hotel management/staff would react to yet another group (assuming they knew of the Chinese group) coming in to do some amateur sleuthing. I'm guessing people would have to be stealthy or book a room there (maybe on the 4th or 14th floors??)

In cases of lack of cooperation, I tend to use the Writer's Explanation. It goes about as follows:

"You can't do that'
"I can if you allow it"
"I can't do it, sir"
"You can, because if you can't I have to guess in my next book and that is what you surely don't want."

And for those, who don't know me from the LISK threads ... I never pretended to be a nice person ...

 

[Godsdog]

Okay, I'm a little confused here. There are four tanks, so it's entirely possible to empty one while three stay in use, climb in and scrub the empty one. No problem with that. Opposite to pipes.
But now, let me see. You have a tank, it's filled with fresh water from the pipes. It has a certain fluctuation because people use water and we talk here several hundred rooms full of people, so lets say, it's some big fluctuation. Now ... you go, because you want to clean a tank from something in the water by scrubbing it down with water form the very same pipes? Huh? The same bacteria, the same fluorides, the same everything, that is in that tank comes also out of the pipes ... no win-situation on the cleaning front.

I did some long term charity work in a very poor country a couple of years ago. I lived in a compound that used a cistern that was periodically filled by a truck sent from the city. Before each delivery one of us would have to go into the cistern and clean it, using the remaining water and a whole lot of bleach. Then it was flushed out with a small bit of water and the new water was added.

Most everyone on that compound got sick at some point if they drank that water, even though we had a filtering system for drinking water. (I didn't trust it and bought bottled water to drink and brush my teeth, and didn't get sick as a result).

 

[OCSlacker]

Not many details in that article. Was she found nude, in the water or above the water mark, was she a local ... lots of questions before one can even start to guess.

Not much is being said about it. NBPD aren't releasing any details. Here is another article.

http://ktla.com/2013/03/04/womans-body-found-on-beach-in-newport-2/

Claims they identified the body and are treating this as a suspicious death. Heard about it while driving home yesterday on the news. On occasion a body will wash up on shore here, usually because someone was out on the jetty when they were washed away by waves. They don't believe this is the case though. She was found closer to the lifeguard station. Could have sworn they said she was nude yesterday but haven't found any documentation that would confirm that. It's a very affluent and touristy area in Orange County, that could be why they are being so hush hush about the details. I just found it odd that the body of another 20 something Asian woman with a very similar build was found not very far from LA. I don't see a connection other than same age, ethnicity, and body type. They aren't releasing cause of death or if there was any trauma to the body.

 

[Peter Brendt]

I think this is spot on.

Do you remember the guy that buried nearly a whole family inside of a hollow tree? Except I think he had the sister of the family in his basement. I think even the poor dog was in the tree.

Who does that? Who comes across a hollow tree and thinks, I could hide bodies in there?

...The type of person who thinks that when they see a water tank or an old well or an abandoned mine or a crawl space or a crevice behind a wall in a building on the MIT campus. That sort of person.

I find a hollow tree and I start thinking things like, oh, that would be such a cool, magical little tree house if it only had a little door on the side. I could read books in there.

Hollow tree rings no bell. I can offer nice spots at the beaches of Pattaya, Long Island, along hiking tracks in WA state, basements, foundation of BBQ grills, an old truck along a road, nice river valleys, a Norwegian fjord, war mass graves ...
The nasty thing is, I study tyrants, serial killers, war criminals and terrorists now since decades. At some point, you look different at places. You actually think "nice dumping grounds", better I don't take a too close look.

 

[Myst]

Anyone who read chinese and can make quicker answer out of this photograph:
http://imageshack.us/a/img600/8496/skrmavbild20130302kl060.png

It is here on this site: http://bbs.tianya.cn/post-free-3077181-48.shtml

I know it has been up as a comment before but I can´t find the real background about it. It was connected in this picture: http://imageshack.us/a/img208/5169/skrmavbild20130302kl040.png

What I read in here before about this pic is that they are showing she's wearing that same plaid shirt.

 

[Peter Brendt]

But if the killer is nuts, then "nuts" is the operative word here!

Lets get this "nuts" thing out of the way, please?

Nuts, crazy, psychopathic, and so on often just generally means "outside the normal thinking". It doesn't mean, they have no reasons. It means, their reasons are not the reason, a sane person would accept or even consider, but nevertheless for them they are real. Technically, it means, we can't use the "normal" patterns to understand them, but we have to use "their" patterns. And since there is a number of different psycho-pathologies out there, we talk also about a big number of possible "abnormal" patterns. But patterns nevertheless. So, bottom line: Nuts doesn't mean understandable or unexplainable, it means only other patterns at work.

 

[Peter Brendt]

I am confused, too. Can you explain another way what you mean?

Cleaning a big pot of water which came from a pipe with water from the very same pipe seems so ... ineffective.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Somewhat OT, but have you read "The Psychopath Test" by Jon Ronson? Fascinating--and definitely shows that psychopaths aren't just serial killers: The Psychopath Test - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well, there is a lot to say about Ronson and for sure even more about Hare (Ronson based his book on Hare). Not all of it is nice. For example the consequent wrongful use of psychopaths and sociopaths as the same thing. But then, I think, theory based discussion would need an own forum at some point.

 

[Peter Brendt]

I did some long term charity work in a very poor country a couple of years ago. I lived in a compound that used a cistern that was periodically filled by a truck sent from the city. Before each delivery one of us would have to go into the cistern and clean it, using the remaining water and a whole lot of bleach. Then it was flushed out with a small bit of water and the new water was added.

Most everyone on that compound got sick at some point if they drank that water, even though we had a filtering system for drinking water. (I didn't trust it and bought bottled water to drink and brush my teeth, and didn't get sick as a result).

Cistern -> Not so much flow. And chances that is was the bleach remaining in there due to spilling it out with not enough fresh water are equally high as chances for any of the always popular ecolis in those countries.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Not much is being said about it. NBPD aren't releasing any details. Here is another article.

http://ktla.com/2013/03/04/womans-body-found-on-beach-in-newport-2/

Claims they identified the body and are treating this as a suspicious death. Heard about it while driving home yesterday on the news. On occasion a body will wash up on shore here, usually because someone was out on the jetty when they were washed away by waves. They don't believe this is the case though. She was found closer to the lifeguard station. Could have sworn they said she was nude yesterday but haven't found any documentation that would confirm that. It's a very affluent and touristy area in Orange County, that could be why they are being so hush hush about the details. I just found it odd that the body of another 20 something Asian woman with a very similar build was found not very far from LA. I don't see a connection other than same age, ethnicity, and body type. They aren't releasing cause of death or if there was any trauma to the body.

Given the time, they needed to identify her by fingerprints, she was a local with a sheet. Not connected IMO. But orth to keep an eye on that, just in case we have really a first time killer of the psychopathic variety at our hands. Some percentage of them feel, if they get away once, they can do it again.

 

[Myst]

I find it odd that no one has seen her. Someone should come forward who have stayed in the same hostel, somebody which had given her that blanket so she could oversleep in the airport terminus. Many more must have seen her at the Cecil Hotel but no one comes forward in the media. That is odd. This thread needs a real real brake through or do we all need to wait for that second autopsy? What if the answer is negative....we should need a Private Investigator. I wonder if her family have had such thoughts, someone working parallel to all involved. My feelings is that I have doubts in LAPD:s investigations at Cecil Hotel, if they are thorough and meticulus in the most precise approach. That they have complete control about everything and everyone at Cecil Hotel. I have doubts.

If I were a family member of someone who went missing and then found dead, I'd definitely be hiring a private investigator, no matter who the police were. Especially because in this day and age, it seems that there is often 'coverup' of sorts, by many involved in an investigation. Not that every investigation is crooked, but just wanting to be sure that everything gets covered for my family member. That's how I'd handle it. IMO

 

[MesaVerde]

Most everyone on that compound got sick at some point if they drank that water,

The water itself might have been contaminated before it ever entered the tank.

 

[Godsdog]

The water itself might have been contaminated before it ever entered the tank.

Oh for certain it was. This was in Port au Prince, Haiti. Enough said.