CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #5

[Xavier]

If I were a family member of someone who went missing and then found dead, I'd definitely be hiring a private investigator, no matter who the police were. Especially because in this day and age, it seems that there is often 'coverup' of sorts, by many involved in an investigation. Not that every investigation is crooked, but just wanting to be sure that everything gets covered for my family member. That's how I'd handle it. IMO

I wondered too if the Lam family is not satified with LAPD's report, they might hire a PI or reward

I would if it was my little daughter/son

 

[Xavier]

"A water tank on the roof is not something people, sane or insane, would think of."

Really?

Exactly and I'm wondering if the perp's a hotel employee, maybe has a grudge, was demoted or was laid off or had hours cut recently

I say this because fouling up the water supply is a pretty twisted way to give some "payback" or say "screw you" to the hotel and effect the hotel's operation in a significant way

 

[Xavier]

I thought anyone might be interested in seeing the Cecil's current website

One photo is very interesting. In the hallways a mirror reflects an exit door to the stairway and it seems to the left and it's on the 15th floor

It might not mean anything, but gives a glimpse of the visuals we're looking for

http://www.thececilhotel.com/


"We sleep safely at night because rough men stand ready to visit violence on foreign soil on those who would harm us." --Winston Churchill

 

[FiveFelines]

This video shows the tree that they were put in. Sort of reminds me of this case in a way. The video doesn't mention the family dog, but the dog was in the tree as well. Nice guy. Here is an excellent article about him that gives a sort of profile of him--it is the link above the video. I think this is the sort of person they should be looking for in Elisa Lam's case as well.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2010/11/21/murdersuspectwaslongonabadpath.html

Missing Ohio Family Murder Victims Concealed Inside Hollow Beech Tree - YouTube



I do that too. I also think things like, why do those neighbors keep to themselves so much and isolate their kids? What is going on in that house?

IIRC, that guy in Ohio was obsessed with trees. He made a "bed" of leaves in his house for the kidnapped girl to lie on. :what:

I am the type of person who sees a trashbag on the side of the road and automatically think, "body parts!"

 

[kingsway]

"A water tank on the roof is not something people, sane or insane, would think of."

Really?

Really.

If you wanted to kill yourself, or hide, you don't think of places that you normally do not have access to. Most water tanks are inaccessible, either by locked lids, or by being in a locked room. This is for obvious reasons, otherwise any teenage kid can piss in them for fun.

 

[FiveFelines]

I thought anyone might be interested in seeing the Cecil's current website

One phot is very interesting. In the hallways a mirror reflects an exit door to the stairway and it seems to the left and it's on the 15th floor

It might not mean anything, but gives a glimpse of the visuals we're looking for

http://www.thececilhotel.com/


"We sleep safely at night because rough men stand ready to visit violence on foreign soil on those who would harm us." --Winston Churchill

Yeah, it's hard to tell but it looks like you'd be able to see the exit if standing in the elevator and looking the mirror from a certain angle.

Those gallery pics are hilarious, in a sick, "bait-and-switch" kind of way. Where are these big, luxurious rooms they show? Because all the room pics I've seen (both of Stay and Cecil) look nothing like that at all.

 

[FiveFelines]

Really.

If you wanted to kill yourself, or hide, you don't think of places that you normally do not have access to. Most water tanks are inaccessible, either by locked lids, or by being in a locked room. This is for obvious reasons, otherwise any teenage kid can piss in them for fun.

There have actually been previous cases of water tank suicides, in the US and elsewhere (quite a few in India). Not this exact scenario, but people do kill themselves this way.

 

[Xavier]

As an extreme case, it's like saying a construction worker would know how to design a building "in some professional capacity". A doctor goes through many false positives daily and even they are unable to correctly diagnose illnesses sometimes.



I don't know what your profession is, but I think this is the crux of the disagreement. Does a video with no sound, or other context cues qualify as reliable evidence to think she was "probably" experiencing psychosis?

I agree, a threat may not be present in the video at all. But that doesn't mean she wasn't acting rationally. Let's examine her actions and give rational explanations:

• Pressing multiple buttons - someone who doesn't want someone to know what floor they're going to may do this. Someone may do this just for *advertiser censored* and giggles. Someone may do this if they're playing a game of some sort. (although I find this unlikely, unless she's "played this game" before)
• Looking out the door both ways - if someone expects the door to close, and it doesn't, they may assume someone was holding the button from the outside and check
• Standing in the corner - someone who doesn't want to be seen, or someone who is angling at a better look at the outside button, making sure it's not being pressed
• The hop-step outside the elevator - used commonly by people wanting to make a noise with their feet, to make their presence known, especially if you suspect someone is hiding.
• Hands on her head outside the elevator - "What do I do now?" or "I think I'm getting paranoid" Non-crazy people do this too.
• Pressing the buttons again - "Why won't this stupid elevator work, damnit!"
• Swimming gestures - she could be talking to someone or to herself. It could indicate she's telling someone she can't see, or she could be pointing to the elevator as she's talking. It could mean a number of things - some people use a lot of hand gestures when they talk. Ever see a flamboyant gay man? Without audio, it's impossible to tell. It's like watching a movie without audio.
• Holding her fingers - normal people do this to emphasize points, either to themselves or to others

Doing something is one thing, but there needs to be a basis for it. How do I know you aren't a terrorist? I can rule out the likelihood based on your past behavior. I can see you have no motive. Or that you don't have the capability. Considering every single possibility is a waste of time.



Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #5

And Kingsway in the video EL leaves in same direction she came from..IMO so maybe she left the perp's room...maybe it was the perp who stops her at the elevator, wants to lure her back to his room with an apology for trying too hard for sex...so she agrees and walks to his room together...He tries another chance for sex after she's warmed up to him again,,but this time EL gets angry and the perp suffocates her on the bed with a pillow...this muffles the screams, sounds, maybe the hotel walls are thin and the perp knows the roof has the water tanks to hide her, DNA, evidence and she might never be found

Maybe EL saw drugs in his room or something she could pin on him and threatens to tell the hotel, police...I don't know, it's a guess

 

[x_files]

I work in the mental health profession and Elisa's actions in the elevator, especially her hand motions, are exactly the type of behavior i witness schizophrenics and people suffering mental breakdowns to have. Thats what originally got me interested in the case, I am fairly positive she is suffering from some sort of psychological break with reality in the video.

People seem to have the opinion that a mental illness is somehow shameful, and its disrespectful to Elisa to consider her having one. Its not. The stigma around mental illness is a real problem in this country and it needs to stop. Its a disease that people develop due to no fault of their own. Having cancer or leukemia isn't shameful, neither should having a mental illness. People need treatment for their disease not to pretend it doesn't exist.

Another key factor, if Elisa did have latent schizophrenia, this is precisely the age when it first starts to manifest itself. Its a definite possibility and one that should not be ruled out just because people have an aversion to it.

Her splayed fingers, hands where it looks like she is petting an invisible animal is the most troubling for me. According to research online it varies from anxiety, fear and a body language expert said she was relaxed and flirtatious. (which I find very odd).
I wonder if a breakdown induced by prescription drugs and possible drug overdose or alcohol combination is at the root of all of this.

 

[LittleDonutStar]

I haven't seen EL's Formspring account mentioned. It's linked from the "ETC" page on her Tumblr. If sleuthers are looking to her Tumblr for an idea of her personality, why not the Formspring? She hadn't answered any questions in over a year, though: http://www.formspring.me/mariniere

One question from December 2011 is "How would you describe your personality?" She answered:

"This is a horrible question that should be answered by my close friends.

On my first day of work, a coworker thought I had ADD because I can be really energetic and random. Another person's first impression of me was loud and obnoxious which I know I can be.

I see myself as an optimist but a cynic first. I'm a fiercely loyal friend. I like to laugh but at horrible things like bad puns and black humour. I'm judgmental, hypocritical, uptight but not narrow-minded.

I think most people will find me way too energetic, without coffee. I have my moments of being an introvert."

To me this reinforces the accounts that she was noted by the owner and customers of the bookstore for being obnoxious, and that she could have been that way without mania or drugs. It also makes it more likely that she may have been freely approaching other travelers/residents at The Cecil or receptive to them, and may have quickly jumped into a friendship with the wrong person because of her playful, extroverted attitude.

 

[Xavier]

Her splayed fingers, hands where it looks like she is petting an invisible animal is the most troubling for me. According to research online it varies from anxiety, fear and a body language expert said she was relaxed and flirtatious. (which I find very odd).
I wonder if a breakdown induced by prescription drugs and possible drug overdose or alcohol combination is at the root of all of this.

thanks Xfiles, here's a refresher for anyone wanting to see the video of the roof top, water tanks

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VU6Pth41A24&NR=1&feature=fvwp"][HD] 失蹤華裔少女藍可兒(Elisa lam) 陳屍飯店水塔中 - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Xavier]

Yeah, it's hard to tell but it looks like you'd be able to see the exit if standing in the elevator and looking the mirror from a certain angle.

Those gallery pics are hilarious, in a sick, "bait-and-switch" kind of way. Where are these big, luxurious rooms they show? Because all the room pics I've seen (both of Stay and Cecil) look nothing like that at all.

5Felines, just getting rumors of bed bugs @ the Cecil would be the deal breaker for me...LOL

 

[kingsway]

There have actually been previous cases of water tank suicides, in the US and elsewhere (quite a few in India). Not this exact scenario, but people do kill themselves this way.

I'm saying people don't think of it because they are normally hidden from view and have their access restricted. In rural areas they'd be more common, and probably in India too.

<modsnip> In Vancouver, they are all hidden from view for aesthetic reasons.

 

[Xavier]

I haven't seen EL's Formspring account mentioned. It's linked from the "ETC" page on her Tumblr. If sleuthers are looking to her Tumblr for an idea of her personality, why not the Formspring? She hadn't answered any questions in over a year, though: http://www.formspring.me/mariniere

One question from December 2011 is "How would you describe your personality?" She answered:

"This is a horrible question that should be answered by my close friends.

On my first day of work, a coworker thought I had ADD because I can be really energetic and random. Another person's first impression of me was loud and obnoxious which I know I can be.

I see myself as an optimist but a cynic first. I'm a fiercely loyal friend. I like to laugh but at horrible things like bad puns and black humour. I'm judgmental, hypocritical, uptight but not narrow-minded.

I think most people will find me way too energetic, without coffee. I have my moments of being an introvert."

To me this reinforces the accounts that she was noted by the owner and customers of the bookstore for being obnoxious, and that she could have been that way without mania or drugs. It also makes it more likely that she may have been freely approaching other travelers/residents at The Cecil or receptive to them, and may have quickly jumped into a friendship with the wrong person because of her playful, extroverted attitude.

That's true, thanks LittleStar...also it's mentioned on this thread that Elisa might've been bi polar and looking up signs of bi polar involve excessive Risk Taking in many ways...promiscuous sex, irritable behavior,medicating via drugs, alcohol, smoking, gambling, etc


<modsnip>

 

[Borris]

• Pressing multiple buttons - someone who doesn't want someone to know what floor they're going to may do this. Someone may do this just for *advertiser censored* and giggles.

• 
  
  If she couldn't read the numbers, then she would know her floor by the color of the hallway paint.

 

[Godsdog]

I would have. But then I don't give authority figures and others much credit for competence unless they prove otherwise to me so...But I think culturally that a lot of Chinese people tend to not buck the system when it comes to government agencies just because doing that tends to get you jailed or killed where they are from so out of habit and maybe some genetic selection that gets reinforced.

Remember tank man. People always ask, did he get away or did the government arrest him? I think the more practical question is was he killed immediately or was he tortured first? Regarding his kin...Were they sent to work camps or just executed soon after questioning for being related to him? That sort of culture would probably train the average person to be bewy, bewy quiet. (My rabbit hunting impression.)

EL's family were from Hong Kong.

 

[tapu]

Somewhat OT, but have you read "The Psychopath Test" by Jon Ronson? Fascinating--and definitely shows that psychopaths aren't just serial killers: The Psychopath Test - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maybe specifically OT but certainly it's generally ON T. I just started that book. <modsnip>

 

[tapu]

Not much is being said about it. NBPD aren't releasing any details. Here is another article.

http://ktla.com/2013/03/04/womans-body-found-on-beach-in-newport-2/

Claims they identified the body and are treating this as a suspicious death. Heard about it while driving home yesterday on the news. On occasion a body will wash up on shore here, usually because someone was out on the jetty when they were washed away by waves. They don't believe this is the case though. She was found closer to the lifeguard station. Could have sworn they said she was nude yesterday but haven't found any documentation that would confirm that. It's a very affluent and touristy area in Orange County, that could be why they are being so hush hush about the details. I just build was found not very far from LA. I don't see a connection othefound it odd that the body of another 20 something Asian woman with a very similarr than same age, ethnicity, and body type. They aren't releasing cause of death or if there was any trauma to the body.

I don't know where you're coming from there. That seems like saying it would be odd that two young, small statured, white women died, weeks apart, in L.A. Nothing too unusual about that.

If it's the Asian part that seems unusual to you, well, it's LA. Pacific Rim. There are a million small, young Asian girls. I went to Univ of California and there were times I'd look around a class and it would be, like, 99 small young Asian girls and me.

 

[Peter Brendt]

If we do it I'll bring a camera, or at least my phone. What specific pictures would you want?

Rooms, the public rooms (as in lounges, meeting places, entry hall -> no native speaker, so I had to make clear what I mean), traffic ways as in elevators and stairs, where are the security cameras, entries and exits and some general impression how much people are running around on those corridors, the mood (which can't photograph but maybe hear) ... in fact, I take anything, that can give me the possibility to see what a killer there saw and how he may have felt about it. Or anything, you can get.

 

[bessie]

Her splayed fingers, hands where it looks like she is petting an invisible animal is the most troubling for me. According to research online it varies from anxiety, fear and a body language expert said she was relaxed and flirtatious. (which I find very odd).
I wonder if a breakdown induced by prescription drugs and possible drug overdose or alcohol combination is at the root of all of this.

Some have suggested she waved her hands in the elevator opening to activate the motion sensors that prevent the doors from closing.