CA - Court upholds Menendez brothers' convictions

[otto]

Their mother also sexually abused them

The quotes you used are from their meetings with Oziel. It was established in the first trial that these tapes/notes weren’t super credible because:

1) Oziel was essentially blackmailing them and looking to profit off of this

2) Oziel was speculating a lot and trying to come up with his own theories/conclusions as to why the murders happened. He himself had previously met one or both of the parents and had already formed his own impressions.

3) Lyle and Erik didn’t trust Oziel and didn’t want to reveal their abuse to him. They both have said that they let Oziel form his own conclusions, went along with whatever he said, didn’t correct him on things he got wrong. I believe even experts testified to this (that in a lot of parts in the tape, the brothers were just repeating Oziel’s words back to him)

Again, I would suggest watching the complete first trial. It’s easy to have no sympathy and just believe the narrative that the prosecution ran with. But once you listen to the testimony, witnesses, and the experts it’s clear that this wasn’t a case of greed and how a lifetime of severe, ongoing abuse affects the brain/development of a child. It doesn't justify what happened, but it explains why they were in fear of their lives and why they didn’t just leave as so many have argued. JMO

What ??? I have never heard that before ... or maybe I found it unbelievable.
So Kitty Menendez was a sex offender too. Interesting.

It sounds like Kitty and Jose were a bit like Fred and Rosemary West - jointly sexually assaulting their own children.

There it is - from humble beginnings, to beauty pageant winner, to school teacher, to housewife who put family before career, to pedophile who wanted to die (according to Lyle and Erik). I bet there aren't too many women with that history!

Kitty dragged Lyle around the house by his short hair - could that explain his teenage baldness? She must have been very strong to drag a 12 year old around by the hair.

“She was stunningly beautiful, and I mean beautiful on the outside and even more so on the inside,” her brother Brian Andersen told ABC’s 20/20. In 1962, Kitty won the Miss Oak Lawn beauty pageant. By this time, her good looks had already caught the attention of a young Cuban immigrant named José Menendez.
...

Kitty initially worked as a school teacher. But upon the birth of their two sons—Lyle in January 1968 and Erik in November 197o—Kitty put her own aspirations aside to become a full-time housewife at José’s urging. The family eventually settled near Princeton, New Jersey, where the brothers attended the private Princeton Day School.
...

During his testimony on September 13, 1993, Lyle claimed Kitty invited him to bed and asked him to touch her “everywhere” beginning when he was around age 11 until after he turned 13. He also testified she would frequently appear fully or semi-nude in front of him inside their house.

The elder brother also accused Kitty of physical and psychological abuse, saying she kicked him and dragged him to his room by his hair. He claimed she would punish him by throwing his prized possessions, including stuffed animals, out of his window."

The Complicated Life of Kitty Menendez

The Menendez brothers’ mother, portrayed by Chloë Sevigny in the new Netflix show ‘Monsters,’ faced her own challenges before her 1989 murder.

www.biography.com

 

[otto]

Is there any situation where a murderous, premeditated, preemptive strike is justified?

"If anyone could have gotten them off, it would have been the brothers’ lead counsel, Leslie Abramson. ... Abramson’s job was to distract and deflect. She was good at it.

But she could never get past one problem. No matter what happened inside the house at 722 North Elm Drive before August 20, 1989, there was never any evidence to corroborate the brothers’ abuse allegations—or, more importantly, the idea they were afraid they were about to be killed that night.

Besides, abuse does not justify or excuse a revenge killing. It may be a reason to reduce punishment. But killing someone isn’t self-defense unless you believe they’re about to kill you. That’s not the case with Lyle and Erik Menendez.
...

“Erik’s testimony about his general fear in the days leading up to the murder does not provide any evidence that, at the moment he shotgunned his parents to death, he feared he was in imminent peril,” the court writes. ... “Taking Erik’s testimony as true, these killings were, in effect, preemptive strikes.” The “focus on this evidence,” wrote the court, “is misplaced.”

Sons who murder parents? In preemptive strikes? They belong in a state prison. For life. Not in the civilized world, among us."

Don’t Feel Sorry for the Menendez Brothers

A new Netflix documentary has led many people to question whether the Menendez brothers should still be in prison. The answer is simple: Yes.

www.thefp.com

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

Actually I am now getting a little confused perhaps? It was my understanding that it would be improper to conflate the two trials for the Menendez brothers. Court rulings, evidence presented, and judge’s ruling determinations differ. And IIUC some evidence was disallowed in the second trial. And presume that evidentiary rulings were made by the court for that purpose. So it seems IMO it is not practical to attempt to combine or confuse the two trials, their evidence, or the two differing outcomes. MOO

 

[theonewithallthequestions]

Is there any situation where a murderous, premeditated, preemptive strike is justified?

"If anyone could have gotten them off, it would have been the brothers’ lead counsel, Leslie Abramson. ... Abramson’s job was to distract and deflect. She was good at it.

But she could never get past one problem. No matter what happened inside the house at 722 North Elm Drive before August 20, 1989, there was never any evidence to corroborate the brothers’ abuse allegations—or, more importantly, the idea they were afraid they were about to be killed that night.

Besides, abuse does not justify or excuse a revenge killing. It may be a reason to reduce punishment. But killing someone isn’t self-defense unless you believe they’re about to kill you. That’s not the case with Lyle and Erik Menendez.
...

“Erik’s testimony about his general fear in the days leading up to the murder does not provide any evidence that, at the moment he shotgunned his parents to death, he feared he was in imminent peril,” the court writes. ... “Taking Erik’s testimony as true, these killings were, in effect, preemptive strikes.” The “focus on this evidence,” wrote the court, “is misplaced.”

Sons who murder parents? In preemptive strikes? They belong in a state prison. For life. Not in the civilized world, among us."

Don’t Feel Sorry for the Menendez Brothers

A new Netflix documentary has led many people to question whether the Menendez brothers should still be in prison. The answer is simple: Yes.

www.thefp.com

The bolded is simply not true. There is evidence corroborating the abuse. Not to mention the multiple experts who talked to them and interviewed those who knew the family for 60+ hours all found the brothers to be credible.

Nobody said that abuse justified the killings.

 

[theonewithallthequestions]

What ??? I have never heard that before ... or maybe I found it unbelievable.
So Kitty Menendez was a sex offender too. Interesting.

It sounds like Kitty and Jose were a bit like Fred and Rosemary West - jointly sexually assaulting their own children.

There it is - from humble beginnings, to beauty pageant winner, to school teacher, to housewife who put family before career, to pedophile who wanted to die (according to Lyle and Erik). I bet there aren't too many women with that history!

Kitty dragged Lyle around the house by his short hair - could that explain his teenage baldness? She must have been very strong to drag a 12 year old around by the hair.

“She was stunningly beautiful, and I mean beautiful on the outside and even more so on the inside,” her brother Brian Andersen told ABC’s 20/20. In 1962, Kitty won the Miss Oak Lawn beauty pageant. By this time, her good looks had already caught the attention of a young Cuban immigrant named José Menendez.
...

Kitty initially worked as a school teacher. But upon the birth of their two sons—Lyle in January 1968 and Erik in November 197o—Kitty put her own aspirations aside to become a full-time housewife at José’s urging. The family eventually settled near Princeton, New Jersey, where the brothers attended the private Princeton Day School.
...

During his testimony on September 13, 1993, Lyle claimed Kitty invited him to bed and asked him to touch her “everywhere” beginning when he was around age 11 until after he turned 13. He also testified she would frequently appear fully or semi-nude in front of him inside their house.

The elder brother also accused Kitty of physical and psychological abuse, saying she kicked him and dragged him to his room by his hair. He claimed she would punish him by throwing his prized possessions, including stuffed animals, out of his window."

The Complicated Life of Kitty Menendez

The Menendez brothers’ mother, portrayed by Chloë Sevigny in the new Netflix show ‘Monsters,’ faced her own challenges before her 1989 murder.

www.biography.com

It’s not just Lyle and Erik’s words. Kitty’s own therapist testified that she was suicidal.

Lyle and Erik’s cousin testified that Kitty would go help Lyle with showers when he was a teenager.

Multiple witnesses testified that Kitty was extremely strong (physically) and how she didn’t want children/was a negligent (at best) mother

From Kitty Menendez Weighed Suicide, Former Therapist Says : Courts: Subordinate says murder defendants' father was 'the ultimate control freak.' Brothers could return to the stand if judge allows admission of a key audiotape.

“North Hollywood psychologist Edwin S. Cox said Kitty Menendez saw suicide as a way to get back at her husband for his longtime affair, carried on with a woman in New York. “Her purpose was to punish her husband and she didn’t think much about the effect on her children,” Cox said.”

“Echoing the testimony of those before, Cox said Kitty Menendez was dependent on drugs and alcohol, depressed and obsessed with appearances. He saw her in therapy from November, 1986, until February, 1987.”

“He added that she believed one of Lyle Menendez’s girlfriends “would not have been a trophy wife” and worried that the young woman was “taking him places sexually that he was not prepared to go.”

Cox told jurors, “I found that odd.””

 

[otto]

The bolded is simply not true. There is evidence corroborating the abuse. Not to mention the multiple experts who talked to them and interviewed those who knew the family for 60+ hours all found the brothers to be credible.

Nobody said that abuse justified the killings.

The author of the article is a journalist and licenced California lawyer who attended the entire 6 month trial.

He's wrong?
People who did not attend the trial know better?
Why is he wrong?

By Alan Abrahamson
October 10, 2024

"By the summer of 1993, when the trial of Lyle and Erik Menendez began, Southern California had seen Rodney King, riots, wildfires, and mudslides. The trial was a different iteration of front-page Los Angeles news, the first in a succession of “Crimes of the Century.” It was O.J. before O.J.

I was the Los Angeles Times staff writer who covered the first of the brothers’ two trials, the one that was televised, the one that ended with deadlocked juries, the one you can see now on YouTube or TikTok. For six months, I sat in a courtroom in Van Nuys, California, and took notes."

Don’t Feel Sorry for the Menendez Brothers

A new Netflix documentary has led many people to question whether the Menendez brothers should still be in prison. The answer is simple: Yes.

www.thefp.com

 

[theonewithallthequestions]

The author of the article is a journalist and licenced California lawyer who attended the entire 6 month trial.

He's wrong?
People who did not attend the trial know better?
Why is he wrong?

By Alan Abrahamson
October 10, 2024

"By the summer of 1993, when the trial of Lyle and Erik Menendez began, Southern California had seen Rodney King, riots, wildfires, and mudslides. The trial was a different iteration of front-page Los Angeles news, the first in a succession of “Crimes of the Century.” It was O.J. before O.J.

I was the Los Angeles Times staff writer who covered the first of the brothers’ two trials, the one that was televised, the one that ended with deadlocked juries, the one you can see now on YouTube or TikTok. For six months, I sat in a courtroom in Van Nuys, California, and took notes."

Don’t Feel Sorry for the Menendez Brothers

A new Netflix documentary has led many people to question whether the Menendez brothers should still be in prison. The answer is simple: Yes.

www.thefp.com

The opinion of one seemingly biased journalist/lawyer doesn’t cancel out all the evidence, witness testimonies, and experts.

 

[otto]

The opinion of one seemingly biased journalist/lawyer doesn’t cancel out all the evidence, witness testimonies, and experts.

If he is a "seemingly biased" journalist and lawyer, why is his 1993 LA Times article about the trial quoted upthread in comment #525?

Why is he a reliable source when he reports about the psychiatrist that Kitty saw for 3 months between 1986-87, and a "seemingly biased" journalist when he writes that there was no evidence of abuse during the first trial of the Menendez murderers?