CA - Court upholds Menendez brothers' convictions

[theonewithallthequestions]

Is there any situation where a murderous, premeditated, preemptive strike is justified?

"If anyone could have gotten them off, it would have been the brothers’ lead counsel, Leslie Abramson. ... Abramson’s job was to distract and deflect. She was good at it.

But she could never get past one problem. No matter what happened inside the house at 722 North Elm Drive before August 20, 1989, there was never any evidence to corroborate the brothers’ abuse allegations—or, more importantly, the idea they were afraid they were about to be killed that night.

Besides, abuse does not justify or excuse a revenge killing. It may be a reason to reduce punishment. But killing someone isn’t self-defense unless you believe they’re about to kill you. That’s not the case with Lyle and Erik Menendez.
...

“Erik’s testimony about his general fear in the days leading up to the murder does not provide any evidence that, at the moment he shotgunned his parents to death, he feared he was in imminent peril,” the court writes. ... “Taking Erik’s testimony as true, these killings were, in effect, preemptive strikes.” The “focus on this evidence,” wrote the court, “is misplaced.”

Sons who murder parents? In preemptive strikes? They belong in a state prison. For life. Not in the civilized world, among us."

Don’t Feel Sorry for the Menendez Brothers

A new Netflix documentary has led many people to question whether the Menendez brothers should still be in prison. The answer is simple: Yes.

www.thefp.com

The bolded is simply not true. There is evidence corroborating the abuse. Not to mention the multiple experts who talked to them and interviewed those who knew the family for 60+ hours all found the brothers to be credible.

Nobody said that abuse justified the killings.

 

[theonewithallthequestions]

What ??? I have never heard that before ... or maybe I found it unbelievable.
So Kitty Menendez was a sex offender too. Interesting.

It sounds like Kitty and Jose were a bit like Fred and Rosemary West - jointly sexually assaulting their own children.

There it is - from humble beginnings, to beauty pageant winner, to school teacher, to housewife who put family before career, to pedophile who wanted to die (according to Lyle and Erik). I bet there aren't too many women with that history!

Kitty dragged Lyle around the house by his short hair - could that explain his teenage baldness? She must have been very strong to drag a 12 year old around by the hair.

“She was stunningly beautiful, and I mean beautiful on the outside and even more so on the inside,” her brother Brian Andersen told ABC’s 20/20. In 1962, Kitty won the Miss Oak Lawn beauty pageant. By this time, her good looks had already caught the attention of a young Cuban immigrant named José Menendez.
...

Kitty initially worked as a school teacher. But upon the birth of their two sons—Lyle in January 1968 and Erik in November 197o—Kitty put her own aspirations aside to become a full-time housewife at José’s urging. The family eventually settled near Princeton, New Jersey, where the brothers attended the private Princeton Day School.
...

During his testimony on September 13, 1993, Lyle claimed Kitty invited him to bed and asked him to touch her “everywhere” beginning when he was around age 11 until after he turned 13. He also testified she would frequently appear fully or semi-nude in front of him inside their house.

The elder brother also accused Kitty of physical and psychological abuse, saying she kicked him and dragged him to his room by his hair. He claimed she would punish him by throwing his prized possessions, including stuffed animals, out of his window."

The Complicated Life of Kitty Menendez

The Menendez brothers’ mother, portrayed by Chloë Sevigny in the new Netflix show ‘Monsters,’ faced her own challenges before her 1989 murder.

www.biography.com

It’s not just Lyle and Erik’s words. Kitty’s own therapist testified that she was suicidal.

Lyle and Erik’s cousin testified that Kitty would go help Lyle with showers when he was a teenager.

Multiple witnesses testified that Kitty was extremely strong (physically) and how she didn’t want children/was a negligent (at best) mother

From Kitty Menendez Weighed Suicide, Former Therapist Says : Courts: Subordinate says murder defendants' father was 'the ultimate control freak.' Brothers could return to the stand if judge allows admission of a key audiotape.

“North Hollywood psychologist Edwin S. Cox said Kitty Menendez saw suicide as a way to get back at her husband for his longtime affair, carried on with a woman in New York. “Her purpose was to punish her husband and she didn’t think much about the effect on her children,” Cox said.”

“Echoing the testimony of those before, Cox said Kitty Menendez was dependent on drugs and alcohol, depressed and obsessed with appearances. He saw her in therapy from November, 1986, until February, 1987.”

“He added that she believed one of Lyle Menendez’s girlfriends “would not have been a trophy wife” and worried that the young woman was “taking him places sexually that he was not prepared to go.”

Cox told jurors, “I found that odd.””

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

Journalistic bias is not the subject of this thread.

Move on from that discussion please.

Thanks !!

 

[Tricia]

The bolded is simply not true. There is evidence corroborating the abuse. Not to mention the multiple experts who talked to them and interviewed those who knew the family for 60+ hours all found the brothers to be credible.

Nobody said that abuse justified the killings.

Please provide appropriate links when you make statements like this. Thank you

 

[IDK]

This part is interesting:

“The series is not a mash note to the brothers. It notably omits the new evidence that might set them free. The first is a letter from Erik to his cousin, dated eight months before the murder, in which he alludes to his father’s ongoing abuse. The second is former Menudo band member Roy Rosselló’s claim that Jose Menendez — who signed Menudo to RCA Records — raped him when he was 13 years old. (Rosselló and Erik Menendez are the same age.”

“So are medical records concerning a throat injury common in sexual assault victims, which Erik (in reality) sustained when he was 7.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/tv/2024/10/10/menendez-brothers-ryan-murphy-series-documentary/#

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

Please provide appropriate links when you make statements like this. Thank you

Thank you Tricia for the helpful and courteous reminder!

For those attempting to follow this thread and case, with two prior trials (each with differing results), evidence documented in those trials, published media reports, a recently released Netflix series, information not presented at trial or in evidence, and a court agreeing to review aspects of this matter - it is becoming difficult to discern what is fact, speculation or conjecture, or evidence. MOO

 

[housewife]

Thank you Tricia for the helpful and courteous reminder!

For those attempting to follow this thread and case, with two prior trials (each with differing results), evidence documented in those trials, published media reports, a recently released Netflix series, information not presented at trial or in evidence, and a court agreeing to review aspects of this matter - it is becoming difficult to discern what is fact, speculation or conjecture, or evidence. MOO

I would watch the trials themselves.
Or really, just watch the first one. The one that included all evidence.

I wouldn't get information from Netflix or fictionalized stories. I would be wary of media from that time period because it's heavily influenced by the author's personal feelings.

Soon, Dr. Richards will release a podcast breaking down her conversation with Ann Burgess and all the evidence from the trial, too. I am eagerly awaiting it.

Rob Rand's book was very detailed and I found it informative.

 

[TristanP]

This part is interesting:

“The series is not a mash note to the brothers. It notably omits the new evidence that might set them free. The first is a letter from Erik to his cousin, dated eight months before the murder, in which he alludes to his father’s ongoing abuse. The second is former Menudo band member Roy Rosselló’s claim that Jose Menendez — who signed Menudo to RCA Records — raped him when he was 13 years old. (Rosselló and Erik Menendez are the same age.”

“So are medical records concerning a throat injury common in sexual assault victims, which Erik (in reality) sustained when he was 7.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/tv/2024/10/10/menendez-brothers-ryan-murphy-series-documentary/#

I am having a hard time understanding how this could possibly get them a new trial.

It seems like the hoped-for outcome is that they would be acquitted of murder because the jurors should have sympathy for their abuse and understand that ongoing abuse changes a brain? I have sympathy for their abuse but their brains were not changed so much that they didn’t know what they were doing was wrong.

 

[Noirdame79]

I am having a hard time understanding how this could possibly get them a new trial.

It seems like the hoped-for outcome is that they would be acquitted of murder because the jurors should have sympathy for their abuse and understand that ongoing abuse changes a brain? I have sympathy for their abuse but their brains were not changed so much that they didn’t know what they were doing was wrong.

Personally, I don't think a new trial will happen, due to expense and the passage of time. By the latter I mean that many people who worked on the case or who were witnesses are now deceased, retired, or in not in good health. I think what most likely will happen if it goes forward is re-sentencing. Had they been convicted of manslaughter or second-degree murder, they would have been released by now. Abuse should be seen as a mitigating factor in this case.

JMO

 

[otto]

For me, this is the question:

Can adults blame childhood experience for criminal behaviour?​

According to the Menendez murderers, well after the murders and the arrests, they claim that they experienced childhood abuse, and the murders were nothing more than putting their parents out of their misery before they killed their children (the Menendez brothers).

Fifteen shotgun blasts, with the last bullet killing them in each case. Their father was shot 4 times before the fatal bullet was shot point blank at the back of his head. HIs mother was shot 9 times before the fatal bullet entered her cheek.

Was it anger, was it a reaction to an imagined event, were they putting their mother out of her misery, or did they just want the money?

 

[otto]

If someone experienced childhood abuse, is it reasonable for that adult to murder his or her parents?

The Menendez explanation is that they allegedly, as childhood victims, feared they would be murdered by their parents, so they murdered their parents first.

Is murder a reasonable response to a negative perception of childhood?

 

[suspicious]

If someone experienced childhood abuse, is it reasonable for that adult to murder his or her parents?

The Menendez explanation is that they allegedly, as childhood victims, feared they would be murdered by their parents, so they murdered their parents first.

Is murder a reasonable response to a negative perception of childhood?

In the united states you can get the death penalty for murder. Which is another form of murder.

Child abuse can and does impact people for many generations. Jose was apparently abused, it has been said that he abused both his sons and Lyle also said he abused Erik.

There are a lot of assumptions here and we don't know the truth.

But if Jose and Kitty were guilty of the abuse they are being accused of, then i don’t have a lot of sympathy.

You don’t just get up and walk away from that type of domestic abuse.

If its true, those boys/men would struggle with mental health, had they not murdered their parents, high chance they may have abused their own partners and children. Imo

Breaking the cycle is very different especially when both of your parents caused the trauma and there was no safe option

 

[housewife]

If someone experienced childhood abuse, is it reasonable for that adult to murder his or her parents?

The Menendez explanation is that they allegedly, as childhood victims, feared they would be murdered by their parents, so they murdered their parents first.

Is murder a reasonable response to a negative perception of childhood?

I don't think anyone has ever had a positive perception of being sexually tortured?

The word "perception" insinuates the abuse is all in the victim's head--a common tactic by enablers.

It's scary to think that childhood sexual abuse is real and frighteningly common. But it's true.

 

[Noirdame79]

Kitty Menendez's sister, Joan VanderMolen, gave a very insightful and revealing interview to Vanity Fair

The Menendez Brothers’ Aunt Joan on Why They Must Be Freed: “They Were Used and Abused, and There Seems to Be No End to It”

Joan VanderMolen talks about disturbing memories and why, even though Erik and Lyle murdered her sister, she believes they’ve been victims of both their late parents and the legal system.

www.vanityfair.com

 

[Eloise]

If someone experienced childhood abuse, is it reasonable for that adult to murder his or her parents?

The Menendez explanation is that they allegedly, as childhood victims, feared they would be murdered by their parents, so they murdered their parents first.

Is murder a reasonable response to a negative perception of childhood?

no, but it should have been a mitigating factor in sentencing (also just personally, I want to say I believe them 100%)

Taking into account that in the 90s, people either believed such abuse didn't exist or was the fault of the victim a lot of the time, I think that if the same case was presented now they'd not receive life sentences, or would at least have a chance of parole.

 

[housewife]

no, but it should have been a mitigating factor in sentencing (also just personally, I want to say I believe them 100%)

Taking into account that in the 90s, people either believed such abuse didn't exist or was the fault of the victim a lot of the time, I think that if the same case was presented now they'd not receive life sentences, or would at least have a chance of parole.

Agree.

It was easy for the public to believe "men could not be raped because they lack the necessary equipment to be raped."

We believed it because Pam Bozanich said it in court. An absolutely devastating lie and insult to SA survivors.

 

[housewife]

I started listening to the interview with Robert Rand. Not done yet but I was surprised to find out that the grand jury did not return an indictment that the brothers intentionally killed their parents for financial gain.

“We asked the grand jury to return it, but the grand jury didn’t,” Deputy Dist. Atty. Pam Bozanich, co-prosecutor on the case, said. She did not elaborate.

But later on the prosecution spearheaded their entire case as "They were spoiled and killed for money"?

 

[cottonweaver]

' A press conference will be held in Los Angeles on Wednesday where the state is expected to announce a significant development in the case against Erik and Lyle.

LA County district attorney George Gascón has personally invited some of the brothers' relatives to attend the press conference, Vanity Fair reported. '

Menendez brothers could be free within weeks

The Menendez brothers could soon walk free from prison after more than 30 years behind bars.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[CrimeJunkie82]

Here's some more info re: the Menendez case

In the fall of 1989, journalist and writer Robert Rand conducted interviews with Erik Menendez and Lyle's friend Donovan Goodreau (it was Goodreau's ID that was supposedly used by Erik to purchase shot guns). Both interviews were recorded. Erik seemed to remember his parents in glowing terms (not unusual in families with abuse and with a narcissistic parent) but he did mention something that Rand found disturbing. Erik stated that his father frequently took showers with him and implied that he did the same with Lyle. Donovan Goodreau told Rand that he had once confided in Lyle that he had been sexually molested as a boy. He said Lyle listened intently, with tears in his eyes, and not long after confided to Goodreau that Jose had molested Erik and himself and Goodreau was quoted as saying that Jose "took baths with them". Goodreau was a prosecution witness in the first trial; under cross-examination by Lyle's defense attorney, Jill Lansing, Goodreau denied that Lyle had made any admission to him regarding sexual abuse. Lansing was clearly shocked and was permitted to play the tape from Goodreau's interview with Rand, catching Goodreau in a lie. Since he couldn't deny that it was his voice on the tape, Goodreau claimed that he did not remember making those statements.

Two cousins who testified for the defense in the first trial stated that the brothers had confided to them on separate occasions in the past that their father had been touching them inappropriately. Andy Cano, the son of one of Jose's sisters, stated that Erik, then age 13, had asked him if his father ever gave him massages. Cano was shocked and said no, and then Erik confided that his father had been "massaging his dick". Erik then asked his cousin to swear not to tell anyone. Diane Vander Molen, the daughter of Kitty's older sister, had resided with the family for three summers in the late 1970s, testified that Lyle at age 8, told her that his father had been touching him "down there", referring to his crotch. She immediately told Kitty, who reacted with disbelief and hauled the boy off to his room. The situation was never discussed again. Vander Molen also said that when Jose was away, the boys would take turns sleeping in their mother's bed. She revealed that even at this young age, Lyle and Erik were sexually curious, jumping on her and fondling her breasts.

A medical report from when Erik was 8 years old stated that he had suffered an injuy to the back of his throat, and a medical expert testified that injury was consistent with forced oral sex. While the prosecution tried to argue that the injury could have been cause by something else, even they had to admit that the injury was "unusual".

The Menudo allegations, Jose's company LIVE Entertainment distributing child *advertiser censored* and Erik's letter to a cousin three years before the murders expressing fear of his father I have already talked about. The jurors in the second trial heard none of this.

I may receive some backlash for this, but I honestly believe that if they were sexually abused, then that should be taken into consideration. I agree that they should be punished for what they did to their parents, but with that being said, should they also have to be incarcerated for the rest of their lives for finally having enough and snapping one day? All it takes is for just one bad day and anyone can snap. Definitely not to this magnitude, but Im just saying as someone who was sexually abused by my stepfather for a very, very long time, while my mother who knew yet did nothing about it, I can see how eventually enough was enough for them

 

[CrimeJunkie82]

Some family photos. It should be noted that while pictures often show smiling faces, the reality behind the photo can sometimes be quite different.

Erik (left) and Lyle

With their father

The Menendez family on vacation (I apologize for the small size of the photo and the poor quality)

Erik and Jose at Erik's high school graduation ceremony, Beverly Hills High School, May 1989

Smiles can hide pain that no one else can see...