GUILTY CA - Gianni, 24, & Sal Belvedere, 22, Ilona Flint, 22, San Diego, 24 Dec 2013 - #1

[SeaEclipse]

I think I's demeanor on the call was the result of shock. I think the most likely scenario is that she bled out. Someone can go from remarkably lucid to deceased very quickly if a major artery is damaged; if an artery was shredded by a bullet so that she bled out very, very quickly, it would explain how EMS could have known on sight that she was not saveable despite the apparent incongruity with her being lucid/calm only minutes earlier.

The unclarity re: whether G was at the mall is really, really odd... We know (or at least have heard) that I & S arrived at the mall separately, but were leaving together in S' car... without G. We also know that I didn't have her own vehicle. My thought would be that -- assuming that the uncle is correct & G was at the mall -- G must have come in a separate car from S and must have been leaving in that same car.

One possibility where G isn't involved: Since it was late at night, perhaps G had parked further away from wherever they were all shopping/eating, so I got into S' vehicle to drive home (since they all lived in the same place) or even just to wait for G to bring his car around? Or, perhaps, G stayed in the mall to buy a gift he spotted for I and told S & I that he'd meet them at home (so S & I are planning to drive together) or he'd meet them in the parking lot (so S & I are waiting for him). While G is gone, someone shoots S & I and G panics... either because he sees the shooter or because he's afraid he was the intended target (if someone was following them from a distance and saw S & I head to a car together, it would be easy to mistakenly assume S was G)... or perhaps G is pursued from the lot (seems unlikely w/o catching the attention of others) or maybe carjacked (i.e., the shooter forces his way into his G's car at gunpoint). The carjacking scenario doesn't seem crazy, because G could think he's protecting I & S by allowing the shooter to drive him away/giving them a chance to call 911... especially if I is moving around/appears OK at this stage. In this scenario, I unfortunately can't think of any explanation that has G still staying away if he's still alive... (Maybe a kidnapping, but that seems really far-fetched.)

I'm afraid that all other possibilities in my mind have G involved... I really hope for the families' sake that he's not.

 

[hogwash]

I'm going to throw out my :twocents: on this and say that the media and / or family stated that he was an organ donor, what hospital he was at etc..Organ Transplants are usually kept confidential .. in most case the recipient never knows where or from who the organ has come .This is to protect the family of the donor as well as the Recipient,,,in this case its going to be pretty easy to figure out who got what of his because all the private info has already been leaked to the Media..Now everyone is trying to back pedal the mistake but like everything else once its out there. well.....

 

[SDHELPS]

I agree with you in that her injuries likely limited what she could say.

As far as LE sealing the medical report, I think it is just to keep the direction / entry of the bullets or any secondary wounds that only the shooter would know about. The two shots seem to be almost execution style, while any secondary wounds could indicate some "passion" could be involved.

About the other car: Didn't the relative say that GLB borrowed a relative's car to go to the mall, but isn't his car listed as the missing vehicle? Or am I wrong on that?:waitasec:

GB did not borrow a relatives car but it is reported that Sal borrowed his father's car. There is so much we really don't know and probably won't from LE as at this time it is a homicide investigation/missing person.

 

[SDHELPS]

I'm going to throw out my :twocents: on this and say that the media and / or family stated that he was an organ donor, what hospital he was at etc..Organ Transplants are usually kept confidential .. in most case the recipient never knows where or from who the organ has come .This is to protect the family of the donor as well as the Recipient,,,in this case its going to be pretty easy to figure out who got what of his because all the private info has already been leaked to the Media..Now everyone is trying to back pedal the mistake but like everything else once its out there. well.....

BBM: The family stated that he was a organ donor per his request and his heart now beats within another. This in no way tells anyone who the recipient is and yes it is confidential. The recipient could easily be in another state and completely unaware of this story. There is no breech in stating this publicly. :moo:

 

[MsFacetious]

I think the reason they went to the mall separately could be very simple.
Coming from a family of last minute shoppers (while I'm done by Thanksgiving!) I see this scenario.

S took I so she could get a present for G.
G went separately so he could get a present for I.
I don't find THAT part of it weird at all, that they took separate cars.

 

[hogwash]

BBM: The family stated that he was a organ donor per his request and his heart now beats within another. This in no way tells anyone who the recipient is and yes it is confidential. The recipient could easily be in another state and completely unaware of this story. There is no breech in stating this publicly. :moo:

actually it would be very easy to find out who got what ..as im sure not too many hearts were transplanted within 6 hours of his death..and IMO every rule was broken..JMO

 

[SDHELPS]

I think the reason they went to the mall separately could be very simple.
Coming from a family of last minute shoppers (while I'm done by Thanksgiving!) I see this scenario.

S took I so she could get a present for G.
G went separately so he could get a present for I.
I don't find THAT part of it weird at all, that they took separate cars.

I completely agree! Especially when it comes to young adults, they always wait till the last moment.

 

[SDHELPS]

actually it would be very easy to find out who got what ..as im sure not too many hearts were transplanted within 6 hours of his death..and IMO every rule was broken..JMO

Here is some current data regarding transplants:

Waiting list candidates 121,256 as of today 3:10pm

Active waiting list candidates 77,533 as of today 3:10pm

Transplants January - September 2013 21,659 as of 12/27/2013

Donors January - September 2013 10,587 as of 12/27/2013

http://optn.transplant.hrsa.gov/

I have personal experience with this as my husband received liver/kidney transplants twice in a 3 week period. All information was sealed. I only found out about one of the donors due to a medical complication. Even then I only knew it was a man and he lived in San Francisco and it was revealed he had hepatitis B.

 

[Curious Me]

I think the reason they went to the mall separately could be very simple.
Coming from a family of last minute shoppers (while I'm done by Thanksgiving!) I see this scenario.

S took I so she could get a present for G.
G went separately so he could get a present for I.
I don't find THAT part of it weird at all, that they took separate cars.

It's the idea that they might have been buying gifts, maybe for each other, that makes the jump to a sudden shooting even wilder. Who had the gun? Where did the gun come from?
Did any of them even own a gun?

 

[MsFacetious]

I think knowing whether any of them routinely carried a gun would be very important.
If they owned one, I can see Christmas shopping late at night as a reason to carry it.
But if none of them owned, or had any interest in guns... that is quite different. :twocents:

 

[lynxofsd]

...my current perception of Gianni/Ilona's character and relationships with each other and his family is not one that could fathomably involve killing anyone, particularly the two people that I believe were closest to him.

LE and the families haven't gone public with everything they know, and I shouldn't discount the possibility that I'm simply ignorant of the legitimate reasons for their restraint.

I don't think cruelty is in [Gianni's] nature, and that belief excludes both the possibility of him running out of fear and murdering anyone. That leaves very few remaining scenarios, of which the most probable seems to be that he is dead.

If it is ever proven that someone who I thought was particularly admirable became the murderer of his own brother and fiancé... the consequences for my faith in humanity will not be positive.

...[it] seems improbable that [they] would become so indebted to shady characters that they would feel that three murders are necessary.

His family used to own a delicious Italian restaurant in this area that they closed in 2009.

Thank you for becoming a part of WS at such a difficult time for you and the Belvedere family.

I respect your opinion about these people and their families. Your knowledge of their personalities is important and more valid than others that do not know them. I wish that was enough to rule out a murder/suicide rather than a execution, but I suspect that despite your friendship with the parties involved, you can't resolve which it is either.

Because of your perspective, though, I'll stand in your corner that this was not a case of a man killing his brother over a woman they both loved. Fratricide, however, is at least as old as Cain and Abel--and sometimes as unexpected and apparently improbable.

The remaining scenarios don't stray far from an execution style murder by somebody who either knew them well or barely knew them at all. Perhaps a stranger who was angry with them because of some random encounter could have done this--unfortunately, this happens more frequently than we would like to believe.

IMO though, a more likely possibility is that one or another of these individuals did get involved in something more nefarious, and the penalty of their involvement ultimately resulted in their death. It is possible that something of that nature evolved after their arrival in San Diego that may not have been a part of their life in Utah.

There is a quality about these murders that appears premeditated to me--and if you exclude Gianni, someone with better than average skill and stealth committed them. This location, despite the early hour, is neither private nor unexposed. The risk of this crime was only diminished by someone who thought it through well (including a rapid escape from the area after a rather swift murder), or was exceedingly lucky.

IMO, there must be some concrete reason that Gianni is not more openly described as a suspect than a missing person. Perhaps that is because there is video or other evidence that suggests that others are involved. This influences me to believe that I and S were murdered by someone else.

 

[wantjustice]

Whoever did this caused such a needless tragedy. I look at all their pictures and see such vibrant people. Of course, I didn't know them personally but feel such immense sadness when I look at their pictures.

 

[MsFacetious]

I also think it's important to remember something here.
When a tragedy like this happens we RARELY hear "Oh yeah, I knew he'd do something like that."
Generally we hear "he was such a nice guy, I never thought he'd be capable of that."

I can speak from personal experience on this one...
Our family was rocked to it's core by someone we "never thought capable" of that.

I absolutely understand saying "There is no way he could do that" because I've SAID that.
It only makes the initial tragedy worse when it's a family member of the victim.

I hope for the sake of family and friends in this case... that neither brother was involved.
If one of them was though... it only makes the grieving process that much more difficult unfortunately. :twocents:

 

[Curious Me]

There was a private funeral for Salvatore today. Tomorrow is a public vigil.

Vigil Set for Man Killed in Mall Parking Lot Shooting

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Vigil-for-Salvatore-Belvedere-Pacific-Beach-238309621.html

"Loved ones will gather at Crystal Pier in Pacific Beach at 5 p.m. Wednesday to pay tribute to Salvatore Belvedere, who was fatally wounded in the early hours of Dec. 24 after being shot outside Westfield Mission Valley Mall."

"The vigil comes one day after Salvatore’s funeral, which Donato confirmed was held Tuesday morning."

 

[TravelingBug]

There was a private funeral for Salvatore today. Tomorrow is a public vigil.

Vigil Set for Man Killed in Mall Parking Lot Shooting

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Vigil-for-Salvatore-Belvedere-Pacific-Beach-238309621.html

"Loved ones will gather at Crystal Pier in Pacific Beach at 5 p.m. Wednesday to pay tribute to Salvatore Belvedere, who was fatally wounded in the early hours of Dec. 24 after being shot outside Westfield Mission Valley Mall."

"The vigil comes one day after Salvatore’s funeral, which Donato confirmed was held Tuesday morning."

The strong differentiation in vigils - not mixing them and saying either were for both - is interesting.

But I thought this was a quote also worth noting:

The Belvedere family and SDPD investigators say Gianni has been missing since Dec. 23, and was last seen around 10 p.m. that night at his home in Tierrasanta.

That would seem to indicate they have not confirmed - family or SDPD - that Gianni actually really was at the mall. I think that'd have been noted.

In some ways, I'm not sure if it's better or worse for him to have been seen at the mall, truthfully.

Being there leads some to think he was in the area and could more easily seem to be involved.

On the other hand, if he wasn't there, it's back to why they were without Gianni, who actually was the last one to see him (as in were there other roommates aside from S & G & I? Other family living there or?) and what degree of certainty is there that he hadn't left after being seen, etc. to narrow down when and where he last was, etc.

Because if home really is the last place they have confirmation of him being, then was someone staking them all out and got Gianni there or elsewhere? That ups the seriousness even further (IMO) if that's the case.

If he had been out somewhere else, then again, wouldn't that almost indicate several people involved to have managed to get S & I together and G elsewhere? That'd have to have really been a lucky or skilled bad guy I'd think. If they hadn't been parked in the same place, how would the same individual found him after them - or vice versa - and not have had either get away (not even realizing something was wrong)

Because would G have really gone willingly or even under force and not tried to at least leave an open line on the phone if he saw something and then was also threatened? That seems unlikely - after all it's the girl he loved for around a decade and his brother. Nor does it seems likely THEY could have seen something happen to G and not have managed more relayed, having gotten away at least a bit to call and then maybe try to help him, etc.

 

[jash]

I'm not sure how common silencers are but I'm wondering if one was used.

There were at least two shots fired; likely three (Sal was shot in the head and torso, Ilona in the head).

The Christmas tree lot was "just feet away" from where the shootings presumable occurred. The man who runs the lot was sleeping in a trailer on site (along with his wife and dogs), yet they weren't awoken until the police and paramedics showed up.

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2013/Dec/24/woman-killed-man-shot-mission-valley-mall/

 

[TravelingBug]

I'm not sure how common silencers are but I'm wondering if one was used.

There were at least two shots fired; likely three (Sal was shot in the head and torso, Ilona in the head).

The Christmas tree lot was "just feet away" from where the shootings presumable occurred. The man who runs the lot was sleeping in a trailer on site (along with his wife and dogs), yet they weren't awoken until the police and paramedics showed up.

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2013/Dec/24/woman-killed-man-shot-mission-valley-mall/

It was likely four shots. Unless they changed it recently, they had been saying Ilona had been shot in the abdomen also, then it changed to her torso, then back to her abdomen (to me a lot of that is blurry line categorization wise)

But yeah, Christmas tree lot guy being there is one thing that screws up most possible scenarios for me. Without it being w/ a silencer I just don't see that they all could have happened there.

And although the investigator guy who was speaking out is saying they're confident the shootings occurred there, he also said that they couldn't rule out that they had moved around after being shot. To me both of those statements could leave room for car being elsewhere (just further in the lot away from Christmas tree guy's RV) and then them trying to get help or...?

The other thing that seems like it'd have to have been with a silence or further away is that they were in front of the ONLY place that was open.

In fact, the mall and everything else in it closed at 11 that night. Target may have been open until midnight (but that's clear at the opposite end) - which would have meant over an hour's worth of time they'd have to have to have killed in Macy's (which also adds to my finding it hard to believe they were really there shopping prior)

And if they were shot right there, that's a DANG gutsy killer who not only did it in front of what would nearly clearly be occupied (and extremely visible) AND done during a window of time people could still have been coming and going (although it clearly wasn't many based on how few cars they said were in the lot at the time) and therefore conceivably seeing or hearing something.

Even if you thought you could get away with shooting someone, and in most cases could bank on ONE gunshot being written off as possibly something else, I think it's entirely a different thing to attempt to get 3-4 (at least) shots off, especially since it's clear from the windows that it was like it was NOT a horde of rounds all at once that were fired...never mind knowing that that would be MUCH more likely to have been heard/noticed or something.

Seems unless there was a silencer, the shooter REALLY wanted them dead and was willing to do it at the cost of someone hearing or seeing something.

 

[jash]

It was likely four shots. Unless they changed it recently, they had been saying Ilona had been shot in the abdomen also, then it changed to her torso, then back to her abdomen (to me a lot of that is blurry line categorization wise)

<RSBM>

The reports have been all over the place but I was going off one of the most recent articles.

"Salvatore was shot in the head and torso around 1:15 a.m. on Christmas Eve."

"Flint was shot in the head, but managed to call 911 to report the shooting and their location near Mission Valley Mall at around 1:15 a.m. that day."

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Vigil-for-Salvatore-Belvedere-Pacific-Beach-238309621.html

Is it possible for one shot to have hit both of them? Like if Sal was the target, is it possible for a bullet to pass through Sal and then hit and kill Ilona?

 

[Willow Knight]

What a very, very sad case. My heart goes out to all friends and family.

After reading all the posts and as many details available, last night I just sat and thought about this situation. What hit me was this appears professional.

As I continued to process the few facts we have, I also thought of a gun silencer right away. And, both shot in the head. Almost as if a person walked up to the car, perfect shots, then walked away calmly (as to not draw attention).

Sadly, this does not look good for Gianni. He also may have met evil.

This does not 'feel' like a crime of passion. It feels more unemotional, cold hearted.

So sad.

 

[Eileen730]

I'm sorry I may have missed this but where did these
Brothers work?