CA - Hannah,16,Devonte,15,&Ciera Hart,12 (fnd deceased),Mendocino Cty,26 Mar 2018 #5

[waschbaer]

It is clear from this older foster daughter's account that the Harts really did see her and all the other kids as items. Oh, the ones we special ordered are in, take this one back to the store.

It's bizarre that they were so intolerant of Lee being a tomboy. You would think lesbian women would be more understanding of that, since lots of lesbians receive flack for dressing for comfort instead of style and so forth. I am wondering if they considered themselves apart from or superior to other gay people too, though.

 

[Breezie]

Story of Harts’ foster child is one of heartbreak, though not the way some might expect

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattl...rtbreak-though-not-the-way-some-might-expect/

From article: Her mom, who continued to see Lee while in foster care, and keeps in close touch with her now, said she thinks the women “were trying to change her too fast” — perhaps using theories they learned in school. Jen and Sarah both studied education in college.



If they both studied education, then they should have learned something about child development and psychology. Did they conveniently forgot most of what they learned in school?

 

[Breezie]

Dumping their foster daughter like that.. omg, how utterly heartless.

They were twisted from the start.

It does seem very cold hearted. They could have at least attended the therapy session with her and said goodbye.

They might have been worried that the teen would say or do something that could jeopardize the potential adoptive placement of the first set of siblings. Any SW would have interviewed everyone living in the house before approving them for adoption.

 

[human]

So what was the motivation for adopting? Obviously, they were able to pretend care dor the foster teen and then bam! Finished.

Why adopt? Why not just foster? There is money in fostering and the kids don’t stay.

Remember Hannah got a beating for having a penny. And Jen thought Lee was being a brat about the football. Then Sarah was ticked because one of the kids got a food gift from someone at the festival .

What kind of petty weirdness is all of that?

 

[Talullah]

Parents I know would be happy a professional athlete took time to autograph a ball for their child. I bet their arms were crossed during Lee’s makeover because she was the center of attention.

 

[digitaldevolution]

Strange that they'd insist on getting a makeover for Lee like that - considering the incident with the mannequins and all. Then I think again of Hannah's missing teeth/tight smile, and the girls' unkempt hair (except Abigail - it looks like someone was taking some time on hers, but then she seems like she was probably the second-favorite. Makes sense since she was supposed to be a bookworm, and the Hart women were clearly that way themselves).

I have to say. I don't know about anyone else here, maybe this is no big deal - but for me, the similarities between myself and the Hart women are chilling. I'm also from the Midwest, and I moved out to Portland a year ahead of them. I, too,ended up moving to Clark County. I'm also an animal lover and amateur photographer, I love books and have thought about buying property - I've often thought about adoption, even transracial adoption. I have had rooms painted similar colors to theirs, similar patterns and clothes, and I go to festivals now & then too. The biggest difference I see between me and them is that I understood from an early age that I had terrible anger problems, and I was afraid to have children around that. Like the Hart women might have done, I have trouble seeking help for my issues. I cut my family off at about the same time they seem to have (2015, going into the election cycle when Facebook was uninhabitable). I cut my friends off roughly at the same time they did. I just can't stop reading about this case and feeling like, "this was almost me, in so many ways..." It gives me a sense of personal guilt that's hard to explain, and it makes me think a lot about how isolated we've all become - I don't know about you all, but my social network has deteriorated over the past few years. There are lots of "Facebook-only" relationships, and they all depend heavily on being positive at all times. Negativity is "toxic behavior," and you can all-too-easily find yourself cut loose, especially if you're also outspoken about things that make people uncomfortable.

IMO, etc.

 

[human]

Strange that they'd insist on getting a makeover for Lee like that - considering the incident with the mannequins and all. Then I think again of Hannah's missing teeth/tight smile, and the girls' unkempt hair (except Abigail - it looks like someone was taking some time on hers, but then she seems like she was probably the second-favorite. Makes sense since she was supposed to be a bookworm, and the Hart women were clearly that way themselves).

I have to say. I don't know about anyone else here, maybe this is no big deal - but for me, the similarities between myself and the Hart women are chilling. I'm also from the Midwest, and I moved out to Portland a year ahead of them. I, too,ended up moving to Clark County. I'm also an animal lover and amateur photographer, I love books and have thought about buying property - I've often thought about adoption, even transracial adoption. I have had rooms painted similar colors to theirs, similar patterns and clothes, and I go to festivals now & then too. The biggest difference I see between me and them is that I understood from an early age that I had terrible anger problems, and I was afraid to have children around that. Like the Hart women might have done, I have trouble seeking help for my issues. I cut my family off at about the same time they seem to have (2015, going into the election cycle when Facebook was uninhabitable). I cut my friends off roughly at the same time they did. I just can't stop reading about this case and feeling like, "this was almost me, in so many ways..." It gives me a sense of personal guilt that's hard to explain, and it makes me think a lot about how isolated we've all become - I don't know about you all, but my social network has deteriorated over the past few years. There are lots of "Facebook-only" relationships, and they all depend heavily on being positive at all times. Negativity is "toxic behavior," and you can all-too-easily find yourself cut loose, especially if you're also outspoken about things that make people uncomfortable.

IMO, etc.

Try volunteering somewhere. Maybe with your photo skills. Teaching kids. See how you do.

I saw Sarah’s mother’s FB and she seems quite liberal so not sure why they are estranged.

 

[Lilibet]

Thank you for sharing this. I think the key is “this was almost” you. Despite your struggles and identifying with them, you have enough self awareness NOT to take on more than you can handle. We all have limits. The Harts didn’t recognize those limitations, but you have. And it sounds like you have enough humility to seek help. And yes to volunteering. It breaks isolation and involves giving. Hugs. :heartbeat:

Strange that they'd insist on getting a makeover for Lee like that - considering the incident with the mannequins and all. Then I think again of Hannah's missing teeth/tight smile, and the girls' unkempt hair (except Abigail - it looks like someone was taking some time on hers, but then she seems like she was probably the second-favorite. Makes sense since she was supposed to be a bookworm, and the Hart women were clearly that way themselves).

I have to say. I don't know about anyone else here, maybe this is no big deal - but for me, the similarities between myself and the Hart women are chilling. I'm also from the Midwest, and I moved out to Portland a year ahead of them. I, too,ended up moving to Clark County. I'm also an animal lover and amateur photographer, I love books and have thought about buying property - I've often thought about adoption, even transracial adoption. I have had rooms painted similar colors to theirs, similar patterns and clothes, and I go to festivals now & then too. The biggest difference I see between me and them is that I understood from an early age that I had terrible anger problems, and I was afraid to have children around that. Like the Hart women might have done, I have trouble seeking help for my issues. I cut my family off at about the same time they seem to have (2015, going into the election cycle when Facebook was uninhabitable). I cut my friends off roughly at the same time they did. I just can't stop reading about this case and feeling like, "this was almost me, in so many ways..." It gives me a sense of personal guilt that's hard to explain, and it makes me think a lot about how isolated we've all become - I don't know about you all, but my social network has deteriorated over the past few years. There are lots of "Facebook-only" relationships, and they all depend heavily on being positive at all times. Negativity is "toxic behavior," and you can all-too-easily find yourself cut loose, especially if you're also outspoken about things that make people uncomfortable.

IMO, etc.

 

[mtnlites]

Strange that they'd insist on getting a makeover for Lee like that - considering the incident with the mannequins and all. Then I think again of Hannah's missing teeth/tight smile, and the girls' unkempt hair (except Abigail - it looks like someone was taking some time on hers, but then she seems like she was probably the second-favorite. Makes sense since she was supposed to be a bookworm, and the Hart women were clearly that way themselves).

I have to say. I don't know about anyone else here, maybe this is no big deal - but for me, the similarities between myself and the Hart women are chilling. I'm also from the Midwest, and I moved out to Portland a year ahead of them. I, too,ended up moving to Clark County. I'm also an animal lover and amateur photographer, I love books and have thought about buying property - I've often thought about adoption, even transracial adoption. I have had rooms painted similar colors to theirs, similar patterns and clothes, and I go to festivals now & then too. The biggest difference I see between me and them is that I understood from an early age that I had terrible anger problems, and I was afraid to have children around that. Like the Hart women might have done, I have trouble seeking help for my issues. I cut my family off at about the same time they seem to have (2015, going into the election cycle when Facebook was uninhabitable). I cut my friends off roughly at the same time they did. I just can't stop reading about this case and feeling like, "this was almost me, in so many ways..." It gives me a sense of personal guilt that's hard to explain, and it makes me think a lot about how isolated we've all become - I don't know about you all, but my social network has deteriorated over the past few years. There are lots of "Facebook-only" relationships, and they all depend heavily on being positive at all times. Negativity is "toxic behavior," and you can all-too-easily find yourself cut loose, especially if you're also outspoken about things that make people uncomfortable.

IMO, etc.

Yes! I know exactly what you mean. So much of the way the Harts lived mirrors my own family: we live on an isolated farm in the mountains, we homeschool our kids, we're kind of libertarians, we don't see a lot of people in "real life", my husband and I haven't spoken to our immediate families in almost 10 years, we read a lot, we limit sugar as much as possible, we're vegans, we do the festival circuit, our kids are very up-to-date on current issues and have been to protests and demonstrations with us, our house and property are neat and tidy, we do holistic healing and use natural alternatives as much as possible, I'm an amateur photographer and do the same kind of staging that the women did, we have a lot of animals, we went through the process to adopt a bi-racial adopted child...

The main difference is that we've never abused our kids and I've never contemplated killing any of them.

Something was clearly "wrong" with them for many years, probably going back even further than the problems with the foster daughter. Their lifestyle, interests, and politics can't be blamed because MANY people share those and they don't kill their families. It was something inside of them. That makes "seeing" these problems even more difficult, especially when the abusers are able to put forth such a good front.

 

[musemoon]

Yes! I know exactly what you mean. So much of the way the Harts lived mirrors my own family: we live on an isolated farm in the mountains, we homeschool our kids, we're kind of libertarians, we don't see a lot of people in "real life", my husband and I haven't spoken to our immediate families in almost 10 years, we read a lot, we limit sugar as much as possible, we're vegans, we do the festival circuit, our kids are very up-to-date on current issues and have been to protests and demonstrations with us, our house and property are neat and tidy, we do holistic healing and use natural alternatives as much as possible, I'm an amateur photographer and do the same kind of staging that the women did, we have a lot of animals, we went through the process to adopt a bi-racial adopted child...

The main difference is that we've never abused our kids and I've never contemplated killing any of them.

Something was clearly "wrong" with them for many years, probably going back even further than the problems with the foster daughter. Their lifestyle, interests, and politics can't be blamed because MANY people share those and they don't kill their families. It was something inside of them. That makes "seeing" these problems even more difficult, especially when the abusers are able to put forth such a good front.

Our family is similar as well, vegetarians, transracially adoptive, festival goers, fost/adopt etc. I feel so heart broken for these beautiful children and (I know this will get me in hot water) also heartbroken for mothers who felt a cliff dive was their only recourse. And personally I feel this case has given people an example to use when stating that many of the things our family is...is wrong...and "here's why". Somehow it all feels very personal...

 

[Talullah]

I think it’s pretty safe to say the Hart women brought out the worst in each other.

 

[emma.laurens]

WOW. Drama! The teen girl got more attention from an athlete than Jen did, so she shunned the poor kid for days. And dropping the poor foster kid off at the therapist like that was cruel, almost vindictive. Something I would imagine doing to someone who had made me insanely angry, or jealous. I'll say this: my mother and I started to have big problems after I hit puberty and started getting (unwanted) attention from men. I think it's a common problem between mothers and daughters, but I've never heard anyone discuss it.

I have often wondered if they were getting jealous of the girls as they got older, tbh. Sarah & Jen were dealing with not one, but three young women reaching that stage at about the same time. I believe the issues that arise there go much deeper than just the teens' hormones. Hannah is/was a particularly lovely young woman, and I wondered about the fact that it was her teeth that were missing. All we really know is what they showed us and said, but it seems suspicious to me.

I'll tread lightly here, since there's no concrete evidence yet that gender-based jealousy was an issue. Strictly IMO, a lot of the dynamics that are being reported as fact do make that a logical possibility.

There's this picture from Jen's Facebook page, dated to August 2017, showing Jeremiah, Markis, and Ciera/Sierra. Even though they all look like they might still be underweight, they all look generally healthy. It's about the healthiest Markis looks in any of Jen's photos (no visible overbite, very low facial swelling). Jeremiah actually has some age-appropriate muscle tone. Sierra's hair is fixed up and it even looks like her eyebrows are shaped, so someone in the family (likely Sierra herself) felt a sense of pride in her appearance.

It must have been evident that all of them were gorgeous children who were going to be stunning adults. Most parents would be a little nervous about that. And if (*if*) there was an existing jealousy or panic about them aging out of an imagined family fantasy into young adulthood, the kids' apparent maturity at the end of last year *may*
have aggravated that.

It also seems to me that Sierra is actually the right height for her age here. Markis was about the same height as Jen and Sarah in the March 2016 photo from the Bernie Sanders rally. Ciera looks to be about 8"-10" shorter than Markis in this photo, which was taken 17 months later. Even assuming that Markis didn't grow at all between the two photos, that would put Sierra at between 4'8" and 4'10" which is at the low end of normal height for a 12-year-old girl. Despite any malnutrition/withholding of food that was taking place, the kids were still growing up.

Also noted, reference to blackberries in the yard.

<modsnip>

 

[mtnlites]

Our family is similar as well, vegetarians, transracially adoptive, festival goers, fost/adopt etc. I feel so heart broken for these beautiful children and (I know this will get me in hot water) also heartbroken for mothers who felt a cliff dive was their only recourse. And personally I feel this case has given people an example to use when stating that many of the things our family is...is wrong...and "here's why". Somehow it all feels very personal.

When people do such things, there's clearly something going on inside of them that isn't quite "right." My sympathy lies with the children first and foremost, but I have some left over for the mothers as well. I can't imagine being so depressed/angry/spiteful/defeated/paranoid (whatever they were) that driving over a cliff felt like the right option. And we're not yet entirely sure about the abuse or neglect that happened in the preceding years, and to what extent it existed,but it most likely was present. I wish they'd gotten help. I wish others had reacted sooner or faster, somehow in time to at least have saved the children.

And yes, I also personally fear that this case will allow people to demonize their lifestyle and look at it for answers, even though it wasn't their lifestyle that caused this to happen. Many of us live the same way. It's hard not to take some of the criticisms personally when you're literally doing the same.

 

[digitaldevolution]

First of all - this is a very kind community, and I appreciate you!



Second - does anyone else ever use their finger or thumb to cover the mouth/smile in a photograph, so you can just see the expression in the eyes? It's an interesting exercise with most photos, but especially with this family. I think a lot of us have commented on "fake"/tight/tense-looking smiles, and doing that really brings it out. It's very hard to get all the muscles around your eyes to lie for you.

 

[human]

When people do such things, there's clearly something going on inside of them that isn't quite "right." My sympathy lies with the children first and foremost, but I have some left over for the mothers as well. I can't imagine being so depressed/angry/spiteful/defeated/paranoid (whatever they were) that driving over a cliff felt like the right option. And we're not yet entirely sure about the abuse or neglect that happened in the preceding years, and to what extent it existed,but it most likely was present. I wish they'd gotten help. I wish others had reacted sooner or faster, somehow in time to at least have saved the children.

And yes, I also personally fear that this case will allow people to demonize their lifestyle and look at it for answers, even though it wasn't their lifestyle that caused this to happen. Many of us live the same way. It's hard not to take some of the criticisms personally when you're literally doing the same.

Since people on here are merely a name on a forum, there is no reason to take anything personally.

 

[emma.laurens]

When people do such things, there's clearly something going on inside of them that isn't quite "right." My sympathy lies with the children first and foremost, but I have some left over for the mothers as well. I can't imagine being so depressed/angry/spiteful/defeated/paranoid (whatever they were) that driving over a cliff felt like the right option. And we're not yet entirely sure about the abuse or neglect that happened in the preceding years, and to what extent it existed,but it most likely was present. I wish they'd gotten help. I wish others had reacted sooner or faster, somehow in time to at least have saved the children.

And yes, I also personally fear that this case will allow people to demonize their lifestyle and look at it for answers, even though it wasn't their lifestyle that caused this to happen. Many of us live the same way. It's hard not to take some of the criticisms personally when you're literally doing the same.

I'm not saying anything new here, as this is implicit in what all of you have written... There's a big difference between having similar outward values, and having similar outward values fueled by old wounds, and acting out those wounds in how you represent and impose your values on others.

I do think it's important to reserve some empathy for the two women, purely on the possibility that they were trying to rescue themselves from their own demons through the kids, and running away from their responsibilities whenever they were confronted with the futility of remothering their way out. Not because that mitigates the reprehensibility of what they did, but because a lot of kids with untreated attachment disorders end up being adults with untreated personality disorders, which just perpetuates the cycle.

And (again, strictly IME) the only thing worse than having an untreated personality disorder as an adult is recognizing how toxic you can be, undertaking the often futile search for affordable, effective treatment that will address your issues, and constantly hitting up against the perceived message that- on a larger social level- you are not worth helping. Jen's comment about everything feeling like a "proceed no further" sign, as dramatic as it was, seems like one of the few honest things she put on social media. But even so, the point where they conflated the value of these six children with whatever devaluation they felt personally, is the point where empathy leaves the room.

 

[aka_vonnie]

In this article the foster daughter reported the Harts were expecting a boy, a girl, and a baby on the way. This would mean that it is possible Hannah was 12 in August 2017.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattl...m_medium=email&utm_campaign=article_title_1.1

 

[deugirtni]

It was said by the neighbor that Devonte came asking for food.. such as 'tortillas', and then became 'cured meats' (ie ham, salami, etc), and 'non perishables' (ie NO produce, no veg, no fruit, but instead, packaged items).

Is it possible that mealtimes didn't include the KINDS of foods that the teens preferred to eat? Some kids love their junk food more than others. I know kids that would rather go hungry than eat something they'd rather not eat. The Hart family seems like they are more the type to want to 'live off the land', so to speak. They had chickens, presumably to have fresh eggs, and I see evidence of gardening efforts in their large yard. Their regular groceries may not have included junk food, tortilla chips, pepperoni sticks and packaged products. Some people 'try' to eat 'clean', meaning basically if it doesn't have 2 eyes, and/or can't be harvested from the earth, it's not on their menu. Possibly the fam may have kept certain 'treats' to reward good behavior, which treats and 'desired' food items, may have been used as a bargaining tool, meted out to reward 'good' behavior', and withheld for undesirable behavior?

What if Devonte knew he had an ally in these particular neighbors, felt he could trust them to be silent, and was bold and entrepreneurial enough to establish a way to get his and his siblings' 'wants' met. It sounds as if the female neighbor wasn't that impressed with the parents for whatever reason, from the beginning, and from the limited exposure she'd had with them. In some children's lives there can be external forces which are at odds with individual family values, which may be 'different' from mainstream.

I don't like to pass judgement on anyone without knowing more facts, so just offering this up as a possibility? Regardless of the food issue, there appear to be many additional unanswered questions, and the tragic end result, if it turns out to be what it seems to be, is due to mental illness, and not the fault of the neighbors. I can't imagine how bad they must feel for simply having tried to help.

 

[deugirtni]

In this article the foster daughter reported the Harts were expecting a boy, a girl, and a baby on the way. This would mean that it is possible Hannah was 12 in August 2017.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattl...m_medium=email&utm_campaign=article_title_1.1

This report lists Hannah as being 16:

Sarah and Jennifer Hart, both age 38, were killed, and children Markis, 19, Jeremiah, 14, and Abigail, 14, also died. Three of the children &#8212; Hannah Hart, 16; and Sierra Hart, 15; and Devonte Hart, 15 &#8212; remain missing.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...sf/2018/04/sarah_hart_sent_alarming_3_am.html

 

[deugirtni]

In this article the foster daughter reported the Harts were expecting a boy, a girl, and a baby on the way. This would mean that it is possible Hannah was 12 in August 2017.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattl...m_medium=email&utm_campaign=article_title_1.1

Another article I read (or maybe same one?), it is said the Harts started adoption of Markis, Abigail and Hannah in Sept 2006.. we know that Abigail was 6 in Nov 2010 (child abuse), so back in Sept 2006, Abigail would have been only 2, or even still 1.

When 'Lee' was being quoted in the news article, she said it was 2004, which would match with Abigail currently being 14, if she was still a fetus at the time. Is it possible the family fostered the first 3 kids for a couple of years before commencing adoption proceedings?