CA - Hannah,16,Devonte,15,&Ciera Hart,12 (fnd deceased),Mendocino Cty,26 Mar 2018 #6

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Mira_Eg said:
.. Glad you stated that you don't own a mobile phone, however you can Skype. The children didn't have the device; the medium, neither did they have access to any alternative and most importantly they didn't have the freedom of choice. This applies to many other things including Internet-based devices and driving since they didn't live in a well-connected area in terms of public transportation. Examples given previously, amongst others, are all essential to be taught or offered and then it is up to the teenager to decide.
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The rest of my comment, which isn't shown, also spoke about how kids need to be taught independence and how the Harts were at fault for taking that away from them. My comment about the cell phone was merely to mention that teenagers don't "need" them as in they are not a necessity. And they're not. Being able to communicate is, which I also said (also not quoted), and being taught autonomy outside of the family is important.

We do not know for sure that the kids didn't have access to the internet or other devices. We are assuming that they didn't but we do not know. There was at least some access in the house (perhaps cell phones) because they uploaded photos all the time. LE removed computers from the homes so we know they had those. We do yet know, however, how available those things were to the kids.

This is the rest of what I wrote:
My point is, kids can live without the things that are mentioned. As long as they are still properly socialized, provided with some type of education (which I would say needs to include an understanding of basic technology), and taught to be independent then they don't need a cell phone, car, or email address. However, they DO need adequate nutrition, education, life skills, independence, and socialization. It doesn't sound like they were receiving these things. THAT is a problem.
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Is it possible that Hannah & Devonte were dropped off earlier with Off-Grid friends because those two children had already rebelled in their own way by alerting neighbours? And the Hart women thought if CPS did catch up with them in the following days, that both Hannah & Devonte could not be trusted to keep their happy family cover story?? A lot of Off-Grid Dwellers are remote, & are not connected to Social Media, could their still be a slim chance that if the children are with friends, that whoever they are staying with, are perhaps not even aware that the rest of the family are deceased??? I wish with all my heart these two have survived.
 
Silver~Bell said:
Some remarks:

Tech/TV: In one of Jen Hart's YouTube videos, the one with a dog and cat (not the 2011 dog and cat), in the background is a large monitor or television. It is under a desk.

Were the Hart kids differently able? I'd have to have interviewed them, administered tests, and had a diagnostician brought in, but by their movements and expressions, I'd hazard perhaps Markis had some deficits ( manner of clapping at the Bernie rally with the bird, expression in photos. MOO) I THINK THE MOMS INTERPRETED CHILDISH BEHAVIOR AS LACK OF INTELLIGENCE!

Size of Hannah: I've seen "tiny" kids every year at school, and they aren't being starved. That's not to say Hannah wasn't starved. But some kids are very small, while their siblings are typical size. Presently, we have a case where a third-grader is taller than her seventh-grade brother, and a second-grader is smaller than the smallest kinder, perhaps as big as a toddler. Also, I think along with the missing teeth, Hannah may have had a lazy eye that wasn't medically addressed, possibly.

Videos on YouTube: VERY few, for the amount of years and Jen's desire to get attention. TWO of Devonte dancing and dancing and dancing in the wee hours. He had a stuffed fish hat on in one, a bucket type hat in the other.

RedWORM Forest YT Video: Impatient tone from Jen when Jeremiah, I think, dropped/ threw an earthworm in fright. (MOO) Is it great when kids are thoughtless? No. Was it absolutely age-appropriate? Yes.

Home: In the videos, some of the home is visible. That's a fat-city house. How, on a Kohl's salary? Did the "tribe" get donations? No bank lends that kind of money without serious coin in the buyer's pocket or a HUGE down payment. And the house - while I love a neat house - that house screams "We cannot tolerate kids being kids." And it is beautifully furnished. Again, how? (MOO)

Acceleration across 70-foot span: At only 60 mph, a car will travel 88 feet per second.






Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk
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On the house, JH was receiving $1,900 a month for the adoptions from Texas. I posted the article yesterday. That would make a difference IMO.

That would just have taken seconds to go over the edge then. Is that only 1 second to go from 0-60 mph in 88 feet?
 
Shiressleuth said:
RSBM

So none of them has seatbelts on. They were pulling into a scenic viewpoint, braking 70 feet from the cliff then accelerating out over the edge.

No seat belts could mean getting ready to get out of the car. Suddenly accelerating could be a tragic mistake by someone alcohol impaired or a deliberate act. If it was deliberate why take off the seatbelts? Why would that matter in a deliberate event going over a 100 foot cliff? How many car lengths is 70 feet? Maybe only 6 or 7.
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At best it is DUI manslaughter. At worst it is cold blooded mass murder. With the long violent history of child abuse for these two women, and the fact that they were running away from CPS at the time, I think tips the scale toward it being cold blooded mass murder.
 
RubyRed57 said:
Is it possible that Hannah & Devonte were dropped off earlier with Off-Grid friends because those two children had already rebelled in their own way by alerting neighbours? And the Hart women thought if CPS did catch up with them in the following days, that both Hannah & Devonte could not be trusted to keep their happy family cover story?? A lot of Off-Grid Dwellers are remote, & are not connected to Social Media, could their still be a slim chance that if the children are with friends, that whoever they are staying with, are perhaps not even aware that the rest of the family are deceased??? I wish with all my heart these two have survived.
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I'd say in that community they are still current with social media. I don't know the Emerald Triangle but I know off-grid people and other, similar, communities. Even though they may not have running water, electricity in all the homes, etc. they still tend to have at least one central place in which members can access computers and/or the internet-especially if they are running any kind of business. It seems hypocritical but the idea is to live their daily lives without the stress of modern technology (the plant growing, the homestead chores, the educating, etc.) Most of them realize, however, that to conduct business they still need to be plugged in at least a little. There's a small off-grid community in my county. Like katy described, it's very hard to access-the place is locked up like Fort Knox. None of the homes have grid electricity (it's solar powered), running water (they have a well and compost toilets; most heat with wood stoves), or cell phones. However, the members run a very popular landscaping business and from their social media pages (updated every day) you'd have no clue they live like that.

I'm sorry! Such a long-winded way of saying that the community probably knows. People who live in that manner tend to be more tapped into what's going on than others realize-maybe more tapped in because it's in the best interest of their safety and isolation to know what's going on around them. When katy brought the idea up, it crossed my mind that the members would NOT tell Devonte about what happened because they wouldn't want him feeling guilty or responsible.

In my idealistic fantasy, the surviving kids are safe and alive there and the community is just keeping quiet about it. (On the other hand, my pessimistic attitude is that the mothers did go there and something either happened there or their friends learned about something that happened before the women arrived and they fled to avoid prosecution.) Naturally, there is no proof that they knew this community or was ever there. It's just a wild (but still possible) hope.
 
bluesneakers said:
Yes, you're correct - not leaving a note doesn't make one scenario more or less likely. People often get hung up on the lack of a note as if it means something, or they assume most people who attempt/complete suicide leave notes. Since many suicide attempts are impulsive it means there's not a lot of time to write it all out and say goodbye beforehand.

My shrug smilie - I just meant you had problems with the 30% vs 25% estimate on notes. I said "about 25%" so I'm not sure why it was an issue, but nbd. :peace:

Suicide often not preceded by warnings





Since Jen and Sarah were so isolated I doubt we'll ever know if they showed any warning signs.
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I don't have a problem with the 25% , I just wondered where you got it from and asked for a link, that's all. You didnt provide one when I asked but someone else did for 33%. Facts must have links and I didn't see that it was just an estimate of yours.

LE took the laptop in the search so there could be something on there as you suggested e.g. googling Benadryl.
 
Gooddeeds said:
https://www.fhwsolutions.com/obituaries/chapel-by-the-sea/[/URL][/

What’s the chances of each individual persons obituary on this site saying the same thing? Its as though the names & dates are dropped in. There are no details on the services for anyone...not of only just the Harts. That’s odd though it most likely is their protocol but its just a weird twist of fate in relation to these sweet children.
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Perhaps no next of kin have come forward. :crying:
 
Shiressleuth said:
RSBM

So none of them has seatbelts on. They were pulling into a scenic viewpoint, braking 70 feet from the cliff then accelerating out over the edge.

No seat belts could mean getting ready to get out of the car. Suddenly accelerating could be a tragic mistake by someone alcohol impaired or a deliberate act. If it was deliberate why take off the seatbelts? Why would that matter in a deliberate event going over a 100 foot cliff? How many car lengths is 70 feet? Maybe only 6 or 7.
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Perhaps they never wore seatbelts? Despite all the warnings out there, some people just don't buckle up and they don't make their kids do it, either. (I know, sounds crazy.) I have friends who refuse to buckle up because they don't like the idea of the government "making" them do something inside of their own vehicles. I constantly hear the argument, "If motorcycle drivers and people in buses and RVs don't have to wear seat belts then why should I"? (Not wearing a belt in personal vehicles under a certain size in our state is against the law in our state, helmets are optional.)
 
mtnlites said:
Perhaps they never wore seatbelts? Despite all the warnings out there, some people just don't buckle up and they don't make their kids do it, either. (I know, sounds crazy.) I have friends who refuse to buckle up because they don't like the idea of the government "making" them do something inside of their own vehicles. I constantly hear the argument, "If motorcycle drivers and people in buses and RVs don't have to wear seat belts then why should I"? (Not wearing a belt in personal vehicles under a certain size in our state is against the law in our state, helmets are optional.)
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Possible. However they had a previous rollover and were unhurt so they must have had belts on then.
 
mtnlites said:
I'd say in that community they are still current with social media. I don't know the Emerald Triangle but I know off-grid people and other, similar, communities. Even though they may not have running water, electricity in all the homes, etc. they still tend to have at least one central place in which members can access computers and/or the internet-especially if they are running any kind of business. It seems hypocritical but the idea is to live their daily lives without the stress of modern technology (the plant growing, the homestead chores, the educating, etc.) Most of them realize, however, that to conduct business they still need to be plugged in at least a little. There's a small off-grid community in my county. Like katy described, it's very hard to access-the place is locked up like Fort Knox. None of the homes have grid electricity (it's solar powered), running water (they have a well and compost toilets; most heat with wood stoves), or cell phones. However, the members run a very popular landscaping business and from their social media pages (updated every day) you'd have no clue they live like that.

I'm sorry! Such a long-winded way of saying that the community probably knows. People who live in that manner tend to be more tapped into what's going on than others realize-maybe more tapped in because it's in the best interest of their safety and isolation to know what's going on around them. When katy brought the idea up, it crossed my mind that the members would NOT tell Devonte about what happened because they wouldn't want him feeling guilty or responsible.

In my idealistic fantasy, the surviving kids are safe and alive there and the community is just keeping quiet about it. (On the other hand, my pessimistic attitude is that the mothers did go there and something either happened there or their friends learned about something that happened before the women arrived and they fled to avoid prosecution.) Naturally, there is no proof that they knew this community or was ever there. It's just a wild (but still possible) hope.
Click to expand...

I agree that news travels fast in these off the grid communities. Even though the land is remote, they do have to go into town for supplies, and so do their neighbors. And there is a very close circle of friends that communicate about what is going on in town and the weather and local politics, etc.

And they do go to the internet cafe for wifi, and have cell phones that can be used when they come off the mountain. They would know about what happened to the family pretty quickly.

As far as them telling the 2 teens--- I think they would tell them--as gently as possible---because they are going to find out eventually.
 
Lilibet said:
Are you thinking of the distance of the turnout from highway to the cliff, perhaps? That was 75 ft. I don’t recall reading that the cliff wasn’t 100, but I could have missed it.
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If Google Earth is to be believed, the highway at that location is about 55 feet above sea level. The edge of the cliff where the car went off is about 25 feet above sea level. Whatever the actual drop was, the crash pretty much proves that that was high enough to be fatal.
 
Shiressleuth said:
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2018/03/hart_family_deadly_crash_a_tim.html

Updated timeline as of 17 Apr.
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Do we know when they got together? Trying to figure that out. Taking in foster kids and then adopting 3 older children soon after getting together (I've been married for 15 years, 2 years is "soon" to me) is really...fast? I don't know. Maybe they'd been in a relationship for longer than that. To adopt 3 older children and then turn around and adopt 3 more 3 years later...That was a lot happening in a short amount of time. I am still surprised that they were approved for 3 more. I have friends who have been waiting on the adoption list for years.
 
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3QmaUSqD77w

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aFWunWtJK1o

The first link is a Gray Hughes video showing the actual recordings of the 911 calls.

I don't know if this has been posted on this thread before. I know that GH youtube channel is authorized and linked in the Delphi murders thread so should be allowed.

Mods please delete if not ok.

Second link is a KOIN news video that has likely been posted before.
 
Gooddeeds said:
https://www.fhwsolutions.com/obituaries/chapel-by-the-sea/[/URL][/

What’s the chances of each individual persons obituary on this site saying the same thing? Its as though the names & dates are dropped in. There are no details on the services for anyone...not of only just the Harts. That’s odd though it most likely is their protocol but its just a weird twist of fate in relation to these sweet children.
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Fixed link: https://www.fhwsolutions.com/obituaries/chapel-by-the-sea/

In the obit, it states that Abigail was born on December 26, 2003 - yet when the H's first fosterchild, 'Lee', was at the home in 2004, she indicated that there was a family of 2 kids and another one not yet born, that would be adopted by the H family. I wonder who posted the obits of the family members and how accurate the info is and from where it was obtained? Lee stayed for approx 9 months I believe, so it would have been spring 2005 when the first adoptees arrived in the Hart home. The only child with a birthdate in 2005 is Ciera, who was not from the first set of adoptees. I wonder if Lee's memory is a little mixed up?
[h=2]Obituary for Abigail Hart[/h] Abigail Hart was born on Friday, December 26th, 2003 in the state of Texas. Abigail and her siblings, Markis and Hannah, lived with their adoptive parents, Sarah and Jennifer Hart, and three adopted siblings in Woodland, Washington. When she passed on Monday, the 26th of March, 2018, Abigail was only 14 years old.
 
mtnlites said:
Do we know when they got together? It says the "earliest record" is 2004 and that Sarah changed her name in 2005. They adopted in 2006 but applied to be foster parents before that (2005). If assuming that they got together in 2003 or 2004, that is an extremely tight timeline. Adopting 3 older children soon after getting together (I've been married for 15 years, 2 years is "soon" to me) is really...fast? I don't know. Maybe they'd been in a relationship for longer than that. To adopt 3 older children and then turn around and adopt 3 more 3 years later...That was a lot happening in a short amount of time. I am still surprised that they were approved for 3 more. I have friends who have been waiting on the adoption list for years.
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Tell your friends to try Texas - they pay parents to adopt.

JH and SH got together at the university of SD so I think they had been together 20 years altogether at least.

:cow:
 
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